News:

When one conveys certain things, particularly of such gravity, should one not then appropriately cite sources, authorities...

Main Menu

It's like cancer

Started by Whitney, September 10, 2006, 02:00:07 AM

Previous topic - Next topic
Print
Go Down Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 10
User actions

Wraitchel

#45
October 29, 2008, 04:34:33 PM
Karakara, please don't leave angry. Atheists LOVE to discuss and debate, and your view is interesting and stimulating. I don't think anyone meant to antagonize you.

karakara

#46
November 02, 2008, 02:17:56 PM
Friend,

Alas, I did not leave angry or antigonized.  And, I did not quit the forum. I guess I lied.. for all my piety, I'm only as human as anyone else on this forum. Also,
Jolly Sapper provides some decent entertainment value for free -- even Sikhs need a chuckle every now and then ;-)

I'll have more soon, I've been swamped at work.. yet another commonality I share with many of the contributors of this forum, no doubt.

Tks. for the invite back.
"If you cannot see God in all, you cannot see God at all."

"When there is no hope, YOU become The Hope!"

-- Sri Singh Sahib Harbhajan Singh Khalsa Yogijee
http://www.sikhnet.com/pages/introduction-sikhism

wheels5894

#47
November 24, 2008, 09:58:20 AM
It is certainly the case that Christians, and the Catholic Church in particular, have taken fear as a way of recruiting and retaining their adherents. Islam, however, is not exempt from this and the fear of being killed for leaving the faith must mean there are a lot of atheist thinkers trapped in Islam. Like others, I find it quite extraordinary that modern day Christians work with fear whilst the Jesus they claim as their Lord never did this.perhaps it was the Spanish Inquisition that got it started as well as Indulgences.

That aside, I do hope de-converted can rid themselves of the fear put in them before.

Wechtlein Uns

#48
November 27, 2008, 10:34:00 PM
Bloody hell. The guy must be in a really painful place right now. Don't know what to say. I myself hold an interesting view about the subject and death, which is most certainly brought about by what I call logical thinking. It's still weird though. Basically, death is... urm... not real for me. Don't get me wrong, I won't be here forever. or at least as close as you can get to "I". But whatever that I is, really will be around forever. I guess because my view of myself is that of interaction, and interection can't die. It disn't exist in the first place. It's just a term used for when two particles actually, well, interact.

Sooo...Hell? Kind of meaningless, I guess...

I am sorry I couldn't help the poor guy. I hope he get's better.  :(
"What I mean when I use the term "god" represents nothing more than an interactionist view of the universe, a particularite view of time, and an ever expansive view of myself." -- Jose Luis Nunez.

Miss Anthrope

#49
January 11, 2009, 09:40:52 PM
To those who are religious, whatever you want to believe is your business. I just hate hearing Christians try to justify the whole thing. By their own logic, it would be perfectly acceptable to throw my (hypothetical) child into the oven simply for not believing me if I told him something that I can't actually prove. I question the type of mind who could see how that makes sense.
How big is the smallest fish in the pond? You catch one hundred fishes, all
of which are greater than six inches. Does this evidence support the hypothesis
that no fish in the pond is much less than six inches long? Not if your
net can’t catch smaller fish. -Nick Bostrom

oldschooldoc

#50
January 23, 2009, 05:19:35 PM
Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"To those who are religious, whatever you want to believe is your business. I just hate hearing Christians try to justify the whole thing. By their own logic, it would be perfectly acceptable to throw my (hypothetical) child into the oven simply for not believing me if I told him something that I can't actually prove. I question the type of mind who could see how that makes sense.

Of course, theists would claim that was old testament thinking...and all that nonsense about the new testament blah blah blah...zzzzzzzzz....oh sorry, almost dozed off. What really puzzles me, and I will use your example, is this. If you did in fact throw your child in the oven simply for not believing and then you asked for and received 'god's' forgiveness (since he forgives everyone for everything apparently), what would stop you from doing it again? Since, if you did it again, wouldn't you just have to ask for forgiveness again?

I know there is something in the bible that says something about asking for forgiveness knowing you may do it again, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Why, if there really were a god, would I want to live a moral life if I know that I could do anything wrong and just ask for forgiveness?  :rant:
OldSchoolDoc

"I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose freewill" - Neil Peart
"Imagine there's no Heaven, it's easy if you try..." - John Lennon

Miss Anthrope

#51
January 25, 2009, 10:44:10 AM
Quote from: "oldschooldoc"
Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"To those who are religious, whatever you want to believe is your business. I just hate hearing Christians try to justify the whole thing. By their own logic, it would be perfectly acceptable to throw my (hypothetical) child into the oven simply for not believing me if I told him something that I can't actually prove. I question the type of mind who could see how that makes sense.

Of course, theists would claim that was old testament thinking...and all that nonsense about the new testament blah blah blah...zzzzzzzzz....oh sorry, almost dozed off. What really puzzles me, and I will use your example, is this. If you did in fact throw your child in the oven simply for not believing and then you asked for and received 'god's' forgiveness (since he forgives everyone for everything apparently), what would stop you from doing it again? Since, if you did it again, wouldn't you just have to ask for forgiveness again?

I know there is something in the bible that says something about asking for forgiveness knowing you may do it again, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Why, if there really were a god, would I want to live a moral life if I know that I could do anything wrong and just ask for forgiveness?  :rant:

You bring up a really good point, one which contradicts many theists' claims that you need God and religion to live a moral life. if a person beleives that God is the highest authority, and that that authority will simply forgive them if they ask for it, then Christianity could actually enable someone to life a completely immoral life and then essentially just say "Sorry" before they die.
How big is the smallest fish in the pond? You catch one hundred fishes, all
of which are greater than six inches. Does this evidence support the hypothesis
that no fish in the pond is much less than six inches long? Not if your
net can’t catch smaller fish. -Nick Bostrom

VanReal

#52
January 25, 2009, 04:22:52 PM
Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"
Quote from: "oldschooldoc"
Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"To those who are religious, whatever you want to believe is your business. I just hate hearing Christians try to justify the whole thing. By their own logic, it would be perfectly acceptable to throw my (hypothetical) child into the oven simply for not believing me if I told him something that I can't actually prove. I question the type of mind who could see how that makes sense.

Of course, theists would claim that was old testament thinking...and all that nonsense about the new testament blah blah blah...zzzzzzzzz....oh sorry, almost dozed off. What really puzzles me, and I will use your example, is this. If you did in fact throw your child in the oven simply for not believing and then you asked for and received 'god's' forgiveness (since he forgives everyone for everything apparently), what would stop you from doing it again? Since, if you did it again, wouldn't you just have to ask for forgiveness again?

I know there is something in the bible that says something about asking for forgiveness knowing you may do it again, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Why, if there really were a god, would I want to live a moral life if I know that I could do anything wrong and just ask for forgiveness?  :rant:

You bring up a really good point, one which contradicts many theists' claims that you need God and religion to live a moral life. if a person beleives that God is the highest authority, and that that authority will simply forgive them if they ask for it, then Christianity could actually enable someone to life a completely immoral life and then essentially just say "Sorry" before they die.

All very true.  My family and I joked about this a few years ago at a reunion.  Growing up as a Catholic it was wonderful to know that if you screw up you just go to confession receive your penance from the priest and "viola" all is forgiven...until your next confession.  So, it was okay as long as you didn't screw up and die before confessing, or of course you didn't die somewhere that it was impossible to receive your holy benediction.  Makes me think of the poor priest that died running around on 9/11 giving benedictions to dying people in the wreckage ad how in the Army you had to be sure to state your religion on dogtags just in case they needed to issue a prayer at death.  Lots of i's to dot and t's to cross but you are a-okay if you follow the rules.  We saw it as much more of a "check" system on morals than somehting to follow.  Go figure.

I think that's something that makes it more important to live well and do no (or as little as possible) harm as a non-believer, there are no do-overs, no repenting, and it's just a way to live in society without wreaking havoc.
In spite of the cost of living, it's still popular. (Kathy Norris)
They say I have ADHD but I think they are full of...oh, look a kitty!! (unknown)

suntzu

#53
January 26, 2009, 06:08:44 AM
Quoteas a person that loves and chooses to follow god i am apauled by this. i think its stupid and not tactful when christians say that. however that is what i belive. i still dont go around saying it to non-christians. just thought youd want a view of a christian.

BMXRIDER724,

I used to be a christian who shared your viewpoint.  I thought that it was ridiculous to use fear as a weapon to try and convert people.  Now I know that I was just as big a problem as the idiot spouting fire and brimstone for non-believers.  By being a moderate and considerate believer I was complicit in maintaining a system that creates extremists.  My faith provided an environment where the fire and brimstone asses could thrive.  You do NOT get a free pass because you are nice.  You are as responsible for that boy's torment as the idiots that told him he should get an "asbestos suit."  Just as the person I was shares in that shame.  Wake up and smell the lack of afterlife.

liveyoungdiefast

#54
March 10, 2009, 02:46:14 AM
I feel so much empathy for the writer of that. I've been there. I guess my whole fear was more complex too, because all my friends growing up were atheists or agnostics and still are, and from what some of these fundamentalists have said, it really is disturbing because I have heard a fundamentalist promise me that me and the people I care about will go to hell and I'll watch them suffer and they'll blame me for it. It's so sick, so sadistic, so insanely disgusting and he's right, it's a cancer that all the rationality in the world can never fully cure.

As they spread their cancer they know how to manipulate. To tell you that everyone on Earth will hate you in the end. To tell you that you will become unable to feel spiteful towards the god that damns you, that every person will know they deserve it and hate themselves. It is so fucking disgusting and it infects so many people.

If I ever raise children they will not grow up that way, they will not consider the thought. I will raise them with an ability to dismiss those sick myths before they take hold of them. How could I not?

Kodanshi

#55
March 13, 2009, 01:00:47 PM
Quote from: "wheels5894"Christians, and the Catholic Church in particular, have taken fear as a way of recruiting and retaining their adherents. Islam, however, is not exempt from this and the fear of being killed for leaving the faith must mean there are a lot of atheist thinkers trapped in Islam.

Indeed. It also means exâ€"muslims end up compelled by force to remain â€" at least for show â€" within Islâm. I describe this as compulsion, and I believe it renders the famous ayat at 2:256 in the Qur’ân (“There is no compulsion in religion” or “Let there be no compulsion in religion” ) patently false.
[size=85]“I've been planning to end at 1 hp for years now.”[/size]

dystop

#56
March 14, 2009, 09:29:29 AM
Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"You bring up a really good point, one which contradicts many theists' claims that you need God and religion to live a moral life. if a person beleives that God is the highest authority, and that that authority will simply forgive them if they ask for it, then Christianity could actually enable someone to life a completely immoral life and then essentially just say "Sorry" before they die.

At least from what I understand of Christianity, if one accepts as the Bible says that the sin leads to death, they probably are not going to want to live an immoral life because they know it often leads to more self-induced suffering and possibly even spiritual/physical death.  I think the fact that God would have mercy on someone who asks for forgiveness just before they die would attest to just how patient and willing to forgive He is.  From what I understand of original sin, man is fallible and imperfect.  People often make bad decisions and struggle against their selfishness.  To me, I find the doctrine of original sin comforting that I'm not expected to ace my morality test even if I do believe.  With that said, I am glad that the Bible encourages me to never be content with where I am spiritually or morally.  The other crux to this is the concept of grace.  Before I came to believe, I assumed that the Bible laid out how you had to do all these good works to earn your way into Heaven.  And in some ways, we are conditioned by our culture to think that way.  If Johnny does well in school, then he can earn his self-worth by basing it off how smart he is.  Now if you contrast that with the biblical account of grace and how God loves each one of us regardless of how smart/physically attractive/moral we are, to me, I want to learn more about that religion.  I suppose what I am trying to say is that when I read the Bible I don't necessarily picture a vengeful God who's waiting to bop me on the head every time I sin.  

And there are many different beliefs among Christian denominations as to who is going to Hell.  After I decided to pursue joining the Catholic Church, one of the pastors I knew at the Presbyterian Church tried to persuade me to change my mind and informed that he believed Catholics were going to Hell.  Now I had known the guy for a while, and I don't hate him for saying it.  But because I had given the decision a lot of thought, and I truly felt God was calling me to leave that church, my conscience was clean.  I suppose what I am trying to say is that it's not my job to be a mind reader and know how all your consciences stand.  And while yes i do believe in the existence of Hell, I don't think it's my place to attempt to guess where any one of you is going after you die.

Kodanshi

#57
March 15, 2009, 12:29:20 AM
Quote from: "dystop"
Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"At least from what I understand of Christianity, if one accepts as the Bible says that the sin leads to death, they probably are not going to want to live an immoral life because they know it often leads to more self-induced suffering and possibly even spiritual/physical death.
Whereas a morally sound religious person experiencing those things considers it a ‘test’ from god?
[size=85]“I've been planning to end at 1 hp for years now.”[/size]

Ben-AG

#58
May 21, 2009, 09:57:09 AM
Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"
Quote from: "oldschooldoc"
Quote from: "Miss Anthrope"To those who are religious, whatever you want to believe is your business. I just hate hearing Christians try to justify the whole thing. By their own logic, it would be perfectly acceptable to throw my (hypothetical) child into the oven simply for not believing me if I told him something that I can't actually prove. I question the type of mind who could see how that makes sense.

Of course, theists would claim that was old testament thinking...and all that nonsense about the new testament blah blah blah...zzzzzzzzz....oh sorry, almost dozed off. What really puzzles me, and I will use your example, is this. If you did in fact throw your child in the oven simply for not believing and then you asked for and received 'god's' forgiveness (since he forgives everyone for everything apparently), what would stop you from doing it again? Since, if you did it again, wouldn't you just have to ask for forgiveness again?

I know there is something in the bible that says something about asking for forgiveness knowing you may do it again, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Why, if there really were a god, would I want to live a moral life if I know that I could do anything wrong and just ask for forgiveness?  :rant:

You bring up a really good point, one which contradicts many theists' claims that you need God and religion to live a moral life. if a person beleives that God is the highest authority, and that that authority will simply forgive them if they ask for it, then Christianity could actually enable someone to life a completely immoral life and then essentially just say "Sorry" before they die.


The problem lies in that God is not concerned with your words...He knows your heart and if repentance is not truly there then you are not truly "sorry."  This doesn't go to say that there are people who actually feel the presence of God before they die and repent in that moment..God forgives you nonetheless.  A testimony to His love and patience.

Jolly Sapper

#59
May 21, 2009, 03:57:12 PM
Quote from: "Ben-AG"The problem lies in that God is not concerned with your words...He knows your heart and if repentance is not truly there then you are not truly "sorry."  This doesn't go to say that there are people who actually feel the presence of God before they die and repent in that moment..God forgives you nonetheless.  A testimony to His love and patience.

How does this synch with God knowing everything at all times and having a plan for everything?
Print
Go Up Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 10
User actions