America. 7/4/1776 to 11/5/2024.

[Tank]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

So why did Trump win? Because he's what the average Joe American aspires to be. That is a terrifying thought. He is the essence of the 'merican dream/nightmare. He speaks to too many americans. He is an ignorant selfish sexist lying bully. Yet he resonates with over 70 million americans.

[Asmodean]

Sorry, T, but that's just poor analysis.

I'm certain that Trump did get votes from those who aspire to his achievements, factual or perceived. He also got votes from those who "Trump of the gap" - he says many weird things, so one can choose the version of Trump to "believe in." Then, he got votes from people who just feel worse off now than they were 4-5 years ago, and consider it to be through no fault of their own. He also got some votes from voters who are tired of, as Bill Maher puts it, "the woke mind virus." Some voted for him because they saw easier ways of achieving personal gain. Some like oil, gas and other such-like that can be sold to someone else for profit. Some were alienated enough by the "party of college-educated elites" to first hop on the fence, then hop off it in a other direction. There are even those who want to protect their kids from gender-affirming-alphabet-soup-nonsense, which is quite fashionable in the "leftmost" reaches of society. I would imagine that some also voted against Harris. Then of course you have an occasional legal immigrant, who may resent what the influx of illegals does to his family's standing in the local community, or if you are a suburban house wife, you may value family above a federal access to pregnancy termination "no matter the circumstances." You may be tired of your government sinking billions into foreign wars while some veterans at home die of fentanyl overdose under the bridge.

This is by far not exhaustive, and there are many individual reasons to vote for Trump. There are many compound reasons to vote for him as well.

There is no simple answer. The US equivalent of me, who would normally fit in somewhere in the sky-blue range, and a blue collar worker from Louisiana, a proud 9th generation Republican, may have very different reasons to vote for Donald Trump, and just as different reasons to not vote against him.

If your purpose is to change minds, then maybe start by acknowledging the plurality that "s" in "minds" indicates - Trump voters are no more a hivemind than Harris voters are.

[Tank]

I agree there are as many different views of Trump/Trumpism as there are people who hold an opinion about him. And it is also true that generalisations are generally wrong. However I stand by my overall analysis of the groupthink associated with the people who aspire to Trumpism. Selfishness is one outcome of the American dream/nightmare. The needs/desires of the individual outweighs those of society. After 240 years of refinement Trump and his ilk are the result.

[The Magic Pudding..]

I liked Asmo's post, nuanced, astute.  I still think he should be on the Right Thinking Person's Watchlist though. For historical reasons and his recent indifference to the victory of Trump or, or,,, what was her name?

I agree there are as many different views of Trump/Trumpism as there are people who hold an opinion about him. And it is also true that generalisations are generally wrong.

However I stand by my overall analysis of the groupthink associated with the people who aspire to Trumpism.

How many who voted Trump aspire to Trumpism 10% 20% 40% 60% 80% ?

Selfishness is one outcome of the American dream/nightmare. The needs/desires of the individual outweighs those of society. After 240 years of refinement Trump and his ilk are the result.

Don't want the government looking at me or after me, well it owes me my dues but it should be as stingy as me when it comes to giving to others, maybe slightly more a US thing than an us thing.

I think I'm out of practice with this forum stuff, expressing my personal gripes as a universal principle.

How did we of the light lose them to the dark, and how did I fall into gloom?

They said we should be nice, invite all those doing it hard in to share the milk and honey, there will be even more m&h for everyone, I could show you the maths but you wouldn't understand, and even if I've got it wrong, the vast improvement of their lives outweighs the slight, the infinitesimal, not worth measuring decline in your living standard. Home affordability seems to be a problem in all the former nice places now, I heard nice young Justin Trudeau trying to being less nice this morning, Jacinda has gone from NZ.

[billy rubin]

trump got only 2.7 percent more votes in 2024 than he got in 2020.

harris got over 9 percent fewer votes than biden did in 2020.

trump won because he was supported by the more or less the same people who always supported him, and some new ones. the democrats lost because a huge number of their voters stayed home or voted third party.

[Asmodean]

Yes, you see, I have a much easier time buying the above first-degree approximation than "Because they wanna be like him." I think it hits far closer to the mark. People did not rally around Harris like they did Biden.

Now, some would say that it's because "muh-sojiny and racism." That's not far from the quality of argument that the Glorious Golden Shine of His Eternal Majesty the God-Emperor of All Mankind is just too irresistible.

Selfishness is one outcome of the American dream/nightmare. The needs/desires of the individual outweighs those of society.

Or maybe let us I vote for me, and you vote for you and whoever wins, gets their way? You don't have to vote for a "we," an "us" or a "they/them." That will sort itself out.

Voting "close to home" as opposed to "for the betterment of humxnkind" doesn't even need to be selfish by the common standard. (disregarding that near-damned-well-everything is selfish if examined in minute enough detail)

For example, you may say that my position on abortion rights is selfish. Sure, it is based on the events of my life, but my ship hath sailed in that regard. So, when I look at abortion as a variable in the sea of ideological variables, my interest in it is to protect others in a similar situation to the one I experienced from the damage of it. If enough "mes" align in the desired policy outcome with enough others who want to do good by their God or universally think that ending a human life is not a decision another human gets to make or whatever - maybe we all get "our" way for all sorts of different reasons. We are all selfish. That doesn't mean that all we are is selfish.

[Icarus]

Despite the Trump and the Trump people claiming that he won by a landslide, he actually won by only one point six
(1.6 ) percentage points. Way more than 70 million people voted for Harris.....including my own vote, of course.

I strongly suspect that disinformation (propagandist bullshit) on various social media sites had a lot to do with the decisions of a significant proportion of the voters. The principal of geometric progression can make a big difference in outcomes. One lie becomes two lies then four......eight........ sixteen and so on.

[Dark Lightning]

If the US had an educated, discerning populace with trained reasoning skills, the chump- or Bush, for that matter- would never even have got a nod to begin with. The right wing has been lying and laying ground for a long time for this to happen.

[Recusant]

I agree. Critical thinking doesn't reliably produce the meek workers/avid consumers that big money wants though. Much better to have (for instance) devoted fans of professional "wrestling"--not so many unwelcome questions from them. The incoherent wannabe strongman has complied.

[billy rubin]

If the US had an educated, discerning populace with trained reasoning skills, the chump- or Bush, for that matter- would never even have got a nod to begin with. The right wing has been lying and laying ground for a long time for this to happen.

im not convinced. plenty of educated and intelligent people support trump.

the nazis at auschwitz waltzed to mozart at their dinner parties.

[The Magic Pudding..]

If the US had an educated, discerning populace with trained reasoning skills, the chump- or Bush, for that matter- would never even have got a nod to begin with. The right wing has been lying and laying ground for a long time for this to happen.

im not convinced. plenty of educated and intelligent people support trump.

the nazis at auschwitz waltzed to mozart at their dinner parties.

Yes of course but they are of the oppressor class, not proles.

I agree. Critical thinking doesn't reliably produce the meek workers/avid consumers that big money wants though. Much better to have (for instance) devoted fans of professional "wrestling"--not so many unwelcome questions from them. The incoherent wannabe strongman has complied.

Are they really producing meek workers or big disruly toddlers?

[Recusant]

I agree. Critical thinking doesn't reliably produce the meek workers/avid consumers that big money wants though. Much better to have (for instance) devoted fans of professional "wrestling"--not so many unwelcome questions from them. The incoherent wannabe strongman has complied.

Are they really producing meek workers or big disruly toddlers?

The toddlers who smeared their shit in the halls of the Capitol were notably not demanding better working conditions, nor for an increase in the ridiculously low federal minimum wage. They were demonstrating their gullible loyalty to a malevolent buffoon.

[Dark Lightning]

^ Indeed.

[Icarus]

[Tank]

trump got only 2.7 percent more votes in 2024 than he got in 2020.

harris got over 9 percent fewer votes than biden did in 2020.

trump won because he was supported by the more or less the same people who always supported him, and some new ones. the democrats lost because a huge number of their voters stayed home or voted third party.

Sad but understandable.