A Hard Question for Christians

[Miss Anthrope]

Between the ages of 9 and 16 I was forced to attend church, and even attended a private Christian school for grades 7 and 8. It was horrible, but I'm actually glad for it because it ensured that I learned enough to STAY AWAY later.

Now, there were plenty of things I learned that made me go  :crazy: , but he BIG one, the one I've never been able to get even a slightly acceptable explanation for, is this:

1)God is omniscient; he knows ALL, including the future.
2)He made Lucifer, his most beloved angel.

So, even BEFORE creating Lucifer, God knew that Lucifer would betray him and become Satan, Lord of Darkness (this dilemma spills over to Adam and Eve, too). What exactly was God's reasoning for this? I mean, he can't make mistakes, so if he went ahead and made Lucifer anyway, then that means he intended for everything to happen the way it did, right? The most common response I get is along the lines of God's ways being "higher than our ways", implying that it's not something we can understand because we're just simple, stupid humans. But if I made a robot knowing that a glitch in it would cause it to one day kill all humans, then I'd be a monster, an idiot, or insane; nobody would think that my reasoning was the result of superior thought processes. And it brings into question the Christian concept of love: If God already knew the outcome then Lucifer had no choice, nullifying another common explanation I get from Christians trying to take the blame off of God, "Lucifer had a CHOICE." Seriously, if Lucifer had not chosen to betray God, then the knowledge of the future God had would have been false, and God can't be wrong, can he? So, NO, Lucifer did not have a choice, there are even passages in the Bible which state that nothing can happen that God does not will to happen. So God willed his most beloved angel to become his worst enemy from the outset? Please, PLEASE stop telling me that God loves me.

Most of my family are devout Christians, and are constantly perplexed about my rejection of their religion, despite my frequent reminder about said dilemma and their inability to explain it.

Any Christians have a better explanation?

[Asmodean]

...Lucifer is just the best known among the fallen angels - Satan or no, why would the omniscient god create minions that would betray it..?

[Miss Anthrope]

...Lucifer is just the best known among the fallen angels - Satan or no, why would the omniscient god create minions that would betray it..?

Ha, I was kind of hoping the first reply would be a counter, but it's also nice to have someone adding to this "Analysis of Divine Insanity".

[gwyn428]

My father, whom is a Calvinist, would say that God intended for this to happen so that a few chosen people can realize God's grace and recognize him as Love itself.

It's not just the creation of that rebel angel that does not make any sense (other than an insane god), but the existence of our vast universe and the countless number of bacteria and insects on our planet (rendering us insignificant). This god must not only be insane, like a person making a robot with a terrifying glitch, but also this god must be loony tunes. "I created billions of galaxies just so that I can tell the Israelite men to wear white tassels on the corners of their garments."

[Miss Anthrope]

My father, whom is a Calvinist, would say that God intended for this to happen so that a few chosen people can realize God's grace and recognize him as Love itself.

It's not just the creation of that rebel angel that does not make any sense (other than an insane god), but the existence of our vast universe and the countless number of bacteria and insects on our planet (rendering us insignificant). This god must not only be insane, like a person making a robot with a terrifying glitch, but also this god must be loony tunes. "I created billions of galaxies just so that I can tell the Israelite men to wear white tassels on the corners of their garments."

Another great addition, and totally on the money. For such an infinitely powerful/creative being, "He" sure has some pretty simplistic M.O.'s.

Funny about your Dad, my step-father once said something similar (though not as a direct response to the dilemma I outlined), about how God already has his few chosen people to join him in heaven. Makes no sense to me, if they're already chosen then why do Christians always seem to emphasize freedom of choice when it comes to going to heaven, and why do they feel the need to try and convert people. Wouldn't it just be an exercize in futility?

So many contradictions, not enough server space in the world.

[SSY]

I agree totally with you.

This also implies that god wants serial killers to kill, rapists to rape and blasphemers to blaspeme.

Come to think of it, this whol religon things sounds a little silly . . . . . . .

[gwyn428]

Come to think of it, this whol religon things sounds a little silly . . . . . . .

Maybe it's a practical joke where the [intelligent] person finally realizes the religion is such horrible nonsense and nothing serious?

One day I should declare myself a prophet and make a new religion where an important sacrament is to roll around in dirt. Perhaps most of my followers will keep it up til death while only 9% of them realize this is some kind of joke.

Funny about your Dad, my step-father once said something similar (though not as a direct response to the dilemma I outlined), about how God already has his few chosen people to join him in heaven. Makes no sense to me, if they're already chosen then why do Christians always seem to emphasize freedom of choice when it comes to going to heaven, and why do they feel the need to try and convert people. Wouldn't it just be an exercize in futility?

Calvinists believe that since the beginning a number of people were chosen to accept the Gospel and then in the end they will become the Bride of the Lamb. Those of us who were not chosen will simply be thrown into the hellfire. All of this, and every event, was preordained and therefore nobody can actually make the choice to go to Heaven (the sky?). Calvinists believe all of this even though it is extremely ludicrous and it still makes me wonder why the whole universe would be "created" just so that some of the chosen can be saved. The billions of galaxies and stars, the countless billions of bacteria and insects... all of that makes Calvinism, all religions, and in general the idea that humankind is special a petty idea.

[Wraitchel]

Perhaps the choice that mattered was not Lucifer's, but ours. If we didn't have the option to do bad things, then goodness would be meaningless.

I'm not saying I believe that crap. I'm playing god's boneheaded advocate here (since Satan doesn't seem to need one for now).

[Miss Anthrope]

Perhaps the choice that mattered was not Lucifer's, but ours. If we didn't have the option to do bad things, then goodness would be meaningless.

I'm not saying I believe that crap. I'm playing god's boneheaded advocate here (since Satan doesn't seem to need one for now).

Good philosophical point. Although it wouldn't really justify their God's ethics, it would be refreshing if Christians used more thinking like this instead of not thinking at all and just defaulting to those canned answers like "I don't know, God's ways are above me.", which kind of contradicts the whole "Confusion is of the devil" thing, and also the constant ascertions that "all of the answers" are in the Bible. Beliefs aside, I could enjoy discussing religion with Christians if they actually put some effort into it, and I would take them a little more seriously.

As a little aside, I'd have to say that it's not really the belief in a god or many other concepts that I find necessarily irrational, it's the "worshipping" of the Bible that I find truly ridiculous. I asked my step-sister, who's in bible college, what she thinks about the fact that two conflicting accounts of Judas's death are given, and she got upset with me as a result of her own confusion. I felt kind of bad, actually, but told her that if she's going to pursue a "career" in harvesting souls she's got to be ready for questions like that if she's going to proclaim the Bible is "flawless". It's also ironic that some of them will alter the meanings in the Bible to suit their own values, like one thing I've been hearing about the wine jesus made being "new wine", a non-alcoholic juice. In those days, alcohol was common because water and juice spoiled quickly (that's why pirates and other sea-farers were usually drunk, too), but rather than see something they consider sinful in a historical, survival based context, they'd rather just interpret history, and even the Bible, in their own way. It's ironic because it's a sin to alter God's word, yet the text has been re-translated/altered so many times.

[chuff]

I think that the root inconsistency in the Christians' thinking is that they are torn between free will and determinism.

To me, there are two distinct ways of looking at it:
1. God created the angels and humankind and lets both choose what they do, gives them that will.
2. God created the angels and humankind and intervenes directly, setting a course for them that they must necessarily follow (like a kind of liquid spear from Donnie Darko), which is what I think you were implicitly stressing by the "HE KNOWS EVERYTHING" thing.

Now when they say that God created Lucifer, then say that Lucifer chose to sin and God had to shoo him from heaven, they are advocates of free will.
But then when they say that God knew all along that Lucifer would fall because He's so powerful and so blah blah blah, they become determinists.

This distinction still causes a huge rift between denominations, whether God "elects" those He sends to Heaven rather than Hell, or whether they choose whether they get saved or not.

When I was a Christian, I held to the second one of course. This problem is what I think led me eventually to Deism and then to this forum: the fact that the Bible itself contains the inconsistency. "Well does God orchestrate events or do I?" I had enough reason to believe that I did, and so that kept me from believing the election tripe and that kept me from believing the Bible but still believing in a God (Deism), then I just questioned it all and wondered what the point was after I visited a Unitarian church one Sunday and saw how fruitless and just plain annoying even that was.

And that "higher than our ways" argument of theirs is what we call a cop-out.

[toadhall]

This bit of Christian theology I can't find in the Bible, but I see the conflict. If God were to exist, and if he were a God of love, then in my opinion free-will's a given - it's the only way an honest, loving relationship can be entered into. It's also likely that some people would say no - as Lucifer did. The main problem I have trouble with is how God knows the future but maintains the choice component for his creations.

The only explanation I can think of is that God would know each of his creations so well - their personality, the conflict of choices within them, the influences they've had or how they have interacted with the world - that he would exactly what choices you'll want to make, and what effects those choices would have on the giant chessboard of life he supposedly knows down to the last intricate detail. For example, if you knew someone was a selfish person, you would know they'd turn down an opportunity to sacrifice for the benefit of another. If God exists and is omniscient etc, it would be the same - only on an infinitely large scale.

It's a major difficulty of course, how true free will is possible in the world - I've thought about it before, because there are so many worldly influences like biological inheritance and child nurturing that seem to contradict the idea.

[wesmel06]

Interesting Topic
I'm a christian so of course I'm going to have to disagree with what everyone is saying about religion being false or silly. There is evidence all around us that there is a God above. I'll get to your question a bit later. First I'd like to try and prove my point that religion is not silly, fake, or made up. It's most definently real. (Got some eye rolls Im sure lol)

The Organization Of Our Solar System
This earth we live on is in the perfect spot in our solar system. It's far enough from the sun that we don't burn to death. However it isnt too far away from the sun either. If we were any further from the sun we would all freeze to death as well. The moon is far enough away from the earth that it isn't pulled into our gravitational pull.  Not only that but the earth was made just he right size to support life. No other planet can support life because only the planet earth has an atmosphere with a thin layer of nitrogen and oxygen gases extending 50 miles above the earths surface. If the earth was any bigger the atmosphere would contain nothing but free hydrogen like the planet Jupiter. In that case we would not be able to survive. If the Earth was smaller an atmosphere would not be possible like Mercury. You see science does support the fact that there is a God after all. The solar system wasn't set up this perfect by accident or a coincidence. God had to have created our solar system.

Also the earth has it's own built in watering system. 97% of the earths water is located in it's oceans. Due to evaporation the salt is removed from the water and the water is dispersed all over the earth for vegetation, animals, and people. Everytime it rains your witnessing this watering system at work. It doesn't just happen by accident.

The Human Body
Our own human body is more proof that God does exist. Your body is made up of mostly water. Two thirds of your body to be exact. Water is colorless, ordorless, and tasteless as you know. Some things you might not realize about water in the human body though is that it has unusually high boiling/freezing points. Water allows us to live in fluctuating temperatures while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees. Water helps our body to also carry chemicals, minerals, and nutrients through our bodies even in the smallest blood vessels. Water is also chemically neutral which means it doesnt affect the make up of the substances it carries that are used by our bodies. What a clever invention this is.

How about the human brain? Your brain takes in everything you see/feel. From colors/sounds all the way to the pain you feel when you get burnt. It holds all your emotions, thoughts, and memories. It even keeps track of things like the way you breath, how you know your hungry, and so on. Our bodies are no accident. How could our bodies accidently form the right tissue, blood flow, neurons, and structure for this magnificant creation? It cant. Due to the brain we have the ability to reason, produce feelings, dream, and many many other things. Not a coincidence. How can something like life all of a sudden just happen from non-life lol? Your body and how it works had to have had a designer. It's far too complex.

Religion Over Time/The Bible
Religion has been around from day one. The first day the earth was created Adam and Eve lived knowing there was a higher power named God. All this time later in the year 2009 many still believe this. Even after centuries of people trying to get rid of religion it still stands. People have been killed/tortured for centuries for their beliefs in religion yet it still exists. It has always been around, it will always be around, and nothing can change that.

The Bible was created over a period of about 1500 years with about 40 different human writers. None of these people ever got to talk. None of these people ever decided to get together to create the biggest scam of all time. They all lived in different time periods. They all came from different backgrounds. Yet how is it that every single one of their stories seem to fit together without any contradictions? The Bible being fake isn't possible.

Suffering In The World
Why would God allow suffering in the world? Wy does God let bad things happen to all of us? It's called free will. If someone dies in a car accident after getting hit by a drunk driver then it isn't that God couldn't stop it. It's just that it would be a violation of free will if God prevented it from happening. He can't take your beer away and say no without breaking your promise of free will now can he? Bad things happen in the world because we don't listen to God. It's just that simple really. Murder, rape, drugs, and etc God tells us not to do. We do it anyway though. We can't blame God for these things. Blame ourselves!

Moral Values
Where did moral values first come from? Did people just decide a long time ago that we needed to have rules? Or did God give us the ten commandments? I think it's safe to say that people are animals. We lie, cheat, steal, and so on. We are selfish, we kill each other, and it's always been this way. Human beings did not create moral values. God did. A lot of the world just refuses to listen to God. Look at the times we live in. Never before has there been more killing, stealing,  and greed in this world. God started us out with morals. Satan has slowly led humanity away from all these things. Eventually he will take over, Jesus will come back, and Satan will be thrown in the pit for 1000 years. After that he'll be allowed a short time to try and lead people from God again but will again fail. He'll then be thrown in the lake of fire and humanity will forever be free of all of these evil things.

Your Own Personal Experiences
I went from a person who didn't care about anything but drinking, sex, and so on to becoming a christian who does good for other people. I use to have no goals, no ambition, and no purpose to live really. God gives me a reason to live. He gives me goals and a purpose. It's safe to say that God made a man out of me. Every bad experience I've went through I've come out a much strong man. Things dont happen to me. They happen for me.

Back To Your Question
Why would God create Satan if he is an all knowing God? I think the reason is that God knew that eventually if it wasn't Satan then someone else would have eventually pulled away from him and done the exact same thing. How do we know something in life is wrong? We try it and we deal with the consequences. Satan tried to overthrow God and he paid the price. Now we all know what happens when we try to put ourselves above God. There is always someone who thinks that they are better than those before him. Despite God not being happy about it I think he knew that he needed to make an example of someone.

As far as human beings go I don't think any of us are created to go to hell by default. I think we are created to realize sin is wrong and to become closer to God. Everyone has the opportunity to repent and accep christ as their savior. If they don't then it's their fault that they are burning in hell for all of eternity. It's that simple. God calls us to him. He called me to him and I've accepted his gift of salvation. Before I became a christian God was constantly nagging me to come to him. An Atheist actually pushed me to him. I didn't know anything about the bible at the time. An athiest I know told me that they didn't believe in the bible. I became obsessed with learning more about the topic as a result. God used this person to bring me to him. Perhaps the reason christianity bothers you all so much is because God wants you to know him better. Maybe the reason your frustrated with God is because he's calling you to him despite the fact your not interested? Think about it.

Now feel free to rip me a new one lol.

[curiosityandthecat]

So... who wants to field these?  

[VanReal]

Not me.  All of wesmel06's information is why he/she believes in his/her Christianity but nothing in it is proof.  "The bible being fake is impossible" by his/her reading would assume that none of the information was available to the other "writer" between the centuries?  And statements about God having to have created these things because they aren't "accdients"...I'm not thinking that discoveries in science are considered explanations of accidents.  Don't know how, nor really don't want, to try to diffute anything in the statements or questions because they are all based on theology and I just can't debate or argue something I really can't wrap my head around.

[SSY]

Sigh, i will have a crack at his, though the delusion seems deep rooted, this person has re-affirmed a belief in god becuase they seem to be unable to make decent life choices for themselves.

Your First arguments are incorrect. You start from the assumption, "People need X conditions to live", you then infer that becuase these conditions exist around us, that someone must have put it there for us. Madness, if the conditions did not exist, we would not be asking the question, becuase we would not be alive. The question presupposes an answer.

Your argunment also verges on another fallacy. The atmosphere of the earth is transparent to EM waves in the range 400-700nm, you know these waves as light. It is much less transparent to microwaves and infrared ( for example, you cans ee a candle a mile away in the dark, but cannot feel it's heat until you within inches of it). To you, this would seem to suggest god made the atmosphere perfect for our viewing needs. What actually happened was the eye evolved to take advantage of light in the 400-700nm range. Any eye that evolved outside this range was useless, and was never passed on. Humans are adapted to the enviroment, not the other way round.

You simply assert our bodies are no accident. You are correct in this assetion, but for all the wrong reasons. Our bodies evolved through a multitude of tiny steps until we are as we are. Evolution is scientificaly supported, creationism is not.

Venerial disease has been around even longer than religon, despite many, many attempts to destroy it, maybe we should worship that instead? the authors of the bible were not in islation from the works of their predesescors, they did not all go away and write a gospel seperatley before combining them to make one whole. Also, the bible is CHOCK full of contradictions, positivley brimming with them.

Your view about free will and determinism, is also logically false when coming from the precept of a all knowing, all powerful god, I will come to this a little later. Though there is already a topic about this on the forum.

your view of humanity saddens me. The only thing keeping you from lying, cheating and killing is because the magic skydaddy said so?

What sect are you a part of?