Paradox concerning omnipotence and hell

[Titan]

Tom62

Which distinctions are you talking about? For those questions for which theists can find an "appropriate" text in the Bible and those questions which cannot be answered without sounding like a fool? No wonder that I sometimes get the impression that a discussion with a theists is like trying to catch a slippery eel with greased hands . After that he just disappeared.

It isn't a decision out of the standpoint of "What the hell, I think I'll kill myself today" it is actually a forced action as we can discuss if you wish to learn what you are arguing against.

After that he just disappeared. No trace of him to see anywhere for more than 2000 years, no clues that he'd even been here in he first place, no logical explanation that he even could exist, etc.

Incorrect, there have been evidences all around the world, some people just are unwilling to accept the idea of a miracle when they hear it.

God now lives outside space and time (how convenient) instead of floating aimlessly around on a cloud in the "good" old OT times and he has a direct line with the Republican Party of the US of A. How convincing

I keep coming back at you because I want to believe that you will listen to logic, reason and evidence.

[Sophus]

I used the word "believe" which is a verb. So what is your point? Yes our original perceptions are based on what we can sense but experience tells us that some of our perceptions may be wrong. Therefore we have to have faith for just about everything we hold on to as reality.

To see a mirage in the desert is an experience but it doesn't mean it is real. Having been a Christian I know the experience. But it can all be explained psychologically. You have yet to prove that beliefs are a choice. Can you simply wake up one day and decide that two plus two equals four if you have no logical evidence to support this theory? Fresh evidence is the only thing that can genuinely alter a belief.

The only choice I can make is faking my way through Christianity, or any other religion, by intentionally lying to myself. But I doubt this would impress a god.

On a side note, I think the way it is being used in our context "believe" is interchangeable with "faith." Where as a belief does not necessarily require a blind faith.

Many many many people would disagree with you. I want to reference a miracle that took place in one of our closest friends lives but I doubt you would believe it. My point is that you can be offered all the evidence in the world and still be blind to it. Shutting yourself off from evidence doesn't disprove his existence, it serves only to prove your own self-centrism.

Sure many people would disagree with me. But most people belong to a religion of some sort and obviously I think their wrong. The truth is still the truth regardless of how many people believe in it. Their is no evidence for god to deny. A supernatural miracle would have to be seen in order to believe.

Actually, this doesn't apply in the slightest. I don't get coal each year even though I don't believe in Santa, I don't get gifts every year from some unnamed source. Therefore the causal effects of the existence of Santa are disproven. This is not the case with God. There are evidences and people from all walks of life (including astrophysics) are coming to the conclusion that there has to be a God.

All you're doing is proving my point. You see how silly it is to believe in something with no support? Consequently, they are much easier to disprove. I disagree with everything that theist scientist have to say about an intelligent creator needed for us to exist but that's another argument.

Fine, one of our family friends, Mrs. Gymerik, grew up in Aceh, Indonesia. Around her collegiate years (she was a believer) she felt a calling to go to an English speaking international school in Singapore despite the fact that she could not speak a word of English. She was accepted into the school (this was something like...28 years ago) and couldn't communicate with anyone and couldn't speak the language. One night, in the midst of her tears, she prayed that God would give her a grasp of the language. The next day she was able to fluently communicate with her roommate, in English. Her family, friends and roommate will attest that she never spent a day learning the language and that the fluency came instantaneously. There is one example...I have more from Indonesia alone.

Like I said, I would have to see it, but I dare say it is either a lie, an exaggeration or a hallucination. But let's say for a moment it's true. How do you know it was Yahweh? Maybe it was Allah. Maybe it was a Mayan god. Perhaps it wasn't a god at all but rather The Secret.

Wait, joy is received by the person who gives the joy to someone else? Can you please explain what you are trying to say here.

I am a little surprised at this. Do you not feel joy when you make someone else happy? Do you have children? If so, do you not feel a priceless sensation when you give a gift to them and their face lights up? I have always found that when you do something to make someone happy that very emotion is returned to you by that act alone.

LOL, you apparently did not listen to me. He is not creating man out of a need he has, there is no desire that must be satisfied, only a selflessness that is present in his perfection.

That is one element yes, but not the entirety of it. God isn't acting for himself, he is also acting out of a love for mankind. Again, selflessness.

No I saw you write that he has no need. However there is no support at all for this other than maybe a Bible reference whereas mine has a logical equation for why he does indeed have a need.

Either way this self destructs. If worshiping what he stands for is more important than worshiping him then I, an atheist who deeply believes in love, would not be damned to hell for dedicating my life to it.

Selflessness doesn't demand love in return for love. Love does not play mans all too common game of quid pro quo. If you read the Bible and replaced the word God with a human name, "Michael." You would think Michael is a wretched person.

I find it fascinating that a person from an atheistic perspective is able to make such absolute statements concerning justice, mercy and sin. Please tell me how you are able to tell a belief system how such terms work from your perspective.

I have my own personal beliefs of right and wrong but also recognize that while they are important among humans the universe is neutral on these moral affairs. The reason I may show such confidence in my definitions of love and etc is due to well thought out philosophies. I encourage you to read "The Art of Loving" by Erich Fromm. He does a wonderful job of explaining something thought to be so complex. From reading it I have noticed that there are men who love greater than God does. How can my love exceed that of an all loving, supernatural beings? Simple. Only one of us is capable of love because only one of us exists.

[Titan]

I used the word "believe" which is a verb. So what is your point? Yes our original perceptions are based on what we can sense but experience tells us that some of our perceptions may be wrong. Therefore we have to have faith for just about everything we hold on to as reality.

To see a mirage in the desert is an experience but it doesn't mean it is real. Having been a Christian I know the experience. But it can all be explained psychologically. You have yet to prove that beliefs are a choice. Can you simply wake up one day and decide that two plus two equals four if you have no logical evidence to support this theory? Fresh evidence is the only thing that can genuinely alter a belief.

The only choice I can make is faking my way through Christianity, or any other religion, by intentionally lying to myself. But I doubt this would impress a god.

You are insinuating that there is no logical evidence, which is simply not true. You can choose to believe whatever you want, FSM, Buddhism, 2 + 2 = 12 but there are beliefs that are more rational then others...ones that answer more with less assumptions and stand up to reasoning better.

Many many many people would disagree with you. I want to reference a miracle that took place in one of our closest friends lives but I doubt you would believe it. My point is that you can be offered all the evidence in the world and still be blind to it. Shutting yourself off from evidence doesn't disprove his existence, it serves only to prove your own self-centrism.

Sure many people would disagree with me. But most people belong to a religion of some sort and obviously I think their wrong. The truth is still the truth regardless of how many people believe in it. Their is no evidence for god to deny. A supernatural miracle would have to be seen in order to believe.

By you personally? You wouldn't take anyone else at their word?

Actually, this doesn't apply in the slightest. I don't get coal each year even though I don't believe in Santa, I don't get gifts every year from some unnamed source. Therefore the causal effects of the existence of Santa are disproven. This is not the case with God. There are evidences and people from all walks of life (including astrophysics) are coming to the conclusion that there has to be a God.

All you're doing is proving my point. You see how silly it is to believe in something with no support? Consequently, they are much easier to disprove. I disagree with everything that theist scientist have to say about an intelligent creator needed for us to exist but that's another argument.

As I have said repeatedly, there is support. Logical, empirical, philosophical, etc. Furthermore, you didn't read what I said because I told you that the basic causal effects of Santa have been disproven therefore Santa is disproven. This is not the case with God.

Fine, one of our family friends, Mrs. Gymerik, grew up in Aceh, Indonesia. Around her collegiate years (she was a believer) she felt a calling to go to an English speaking international school in Singapore despite the fact that she could not speak a word of English. She was accepted into the school (this was something like...28 years ago) and couldn't communicate with anyone and couldn't speak the language. One night, in the midst of her tears, she prayed that God would give her a grasp of the language. The next day she was able to fluently communicate with her roommate, in English. Her family, friends and roommate will attest that she never spent a day learning the language and that the fluency came instantaneously. There is one example...I have more from Indonesia alone.

Like I said, I would have to see it, but I dare say it is either a lie, an exaggeration or a hallucination. But let's say for a moment it's true. How do you know it was Yahweh? Maybe it was Allah. Maybe it was a Mayan god. Perhaps it wasn't a god at all but rather The Secret.

So Allah rewarded an infidel? The Mayan gods drew her away from them? The Secret did it for no purpose? What you are saying is rather nonsensical. Secondly, there are people who support her testimony. Again, roommates, friends and family. But explain how she would learn English in an instant through a hallucination? And why would she attribute hard work to something miraculous? Your reasoning is very confusing.

Wait, joy is received by the person who gives the joy to someone else? Can you please explain what you are trying to say here.

I am a little surprised at this. Do you not feel joy when you make someone else happy? Do you have children? If so, do you not feel a priceless sensation when you give a gift to them and their face lights up? I have always found that when you do something to make someone happy that very emotion is returned to you by that act alone.

Receiving joy is different from needing the specific joy from a specific instant. Receiving pleasure doesn't present a flaw in someone.

LOL, you apparently did not listen to me. He is not creating man out of a need he has, there is no desire that must be satisfied, only a selflessness that is present in his perfection.

That is one element yes, but not the entirety of it. God isn't acting for himself, he is also acting out of a love for mankind. Again, selflessness.

No I saw you write that he has no need. However there is no support at all for this other than maybe a Bible reference whereas mine has a logical equation for why he does indeed have a need.

Either way this self destructs. If worshiping what he stands for is more important than worshiping him then I, an atheist who deeply believes in love, would not be damned to hell for dedicating my life to it.

I am going to ask someone if I can paste a part of a PM I sent them...Essentially all of salvation and the afterlife comes down to one question: Who is your life centered on? If it is about yourself then you create your destiny...I'll explain this further.

Selflessness doesn't demand love in return for love. Love does not play mans all too common game of quid pro quo. If you read the Bible and replaced the word God with a human name, "Michael." You would think Michael is a wretched person.

Only because Michael would be a person. Michael wouldn't have created everything and placed value on it. God is the one who assigns value therefore everything looks to God for purpose. God grants gifts, we do not earn them.

I find it fascinating that a person from an atheistic perspective is able to make such absolute statements concerning justice, mercy and sin. Please tell me how you are able to tell a belief system how such terms work from your perspective.

I have my own personal beliefs of right and wrong but also recognize that while they are important among humans the universe is neutral on these moral affairs. The reason I may show such confidence in my definitions of love and etc is due to well thought out philosophies. I encourage you to read "The Art of Loving" by Erich Fromm. He does a wonderful job of explaining something thought to be so complex. From reading it I have noticed that there are men who love greater than God does. How can my love exceed that of an all loving, supernatural beings? Simple. Only one of us is capable of love because only one of us exists.

[/quote]
What type of love is greater than sacrificial love for someone who belongs to you but chose to deny you?

[Sophus]

You are insinuating that there is no logical evidence, which is simply not true. You can choose to believe whatever you want, FSM, Buddhism, 2 + 2 = 12 but there are beliefs that are more rational then others...ones that answer more with less assumptions and stand up to reasoning better.

Everything that Christians claim to be evidence of God is nothing more than a humorously, chimerical justification for why their God just might possibly exist. Aside from believing that even those can be answered there is no overwhelming evidence for it as there is against it.

Let's take this common theist argument: The theory that the universe is made just right for life that it must have a creator. But we don't even know what our universe is. We know it is expanding. We have a theory of its shape. But we cannot see beyond it. If there are billions if not trillions of of stars and planets in our universe and there are building blocks of the universe called galaxies that contain those stars and planets.... how do we know there isn't something that contains universes? Or something that contains them?  What is also likely is that there is more life in our own universe. How would they ever hear the gospel?

So... we do not know how many universes there are. It is thought that the shape of our universe is like that of a folded piece of paper. Suggesting that universes are stacked on top of each other and wormholes would lead into parallel universes. Who knows how many universes there are and how odd it is for its circumstances to support life? We cannot not because we have but only one universe to judge from. You cannot compare apples to oranges when you have never seen an orange. Douglas Adams compared such thinkers to an intelligent puddle of water. Adams said "the puddle is certain that the hole in the ground he occupies must have been designed specifically for him because it fits him so well. The puddle exists under the sun until he has entirely evaporated."

By you personally? You wouldn't take anyone else at their word?

Of course not. I like to think and judge for myself and not have someone dump their beliefs into my brain. If I took your word for it then I would also have to take the Muslims word... and the Hindus, and so on... it would never end. Why do you reject their word? Because they have no evidence.

As I have said repeatedly, there is support. Logical, empirical, philosophical, etc. Furthermore, you didn't read what I said because I told you that the basic causal effects of Santa have been disproven therefore Santa is disproven. This is not the case with God.

That is my point. There is just as much evidence for God as there is for Santa Claus.

So Allah rewarded an infidel? The Mayan gods drew her away from them? The Secret did it for no purpose? What you are saying is rather nonsensical. Secondly, there are people who support her testimony. Again, roommates, friends and family. But explain how she would learn English in an instant through a hallucination? And why would she attribute hard work to something miraculous? Your reasoning is very confusing.

Obviously Yahweh answers Muslims prayers when they claim their prayers have been answered. Why couldn't it work the other way around? The truth is every faith proclaims miracles and answered prayers. So whoever this god character is it apparently doesn't matter which version of him you believe in so long as you pray. This just goes to show that things just happen. It's a 50/50 shot at whether or not you'll get what you want in life.

Receiving joy is different from needing the specific joy from a specific instant. Receiving pleasure doesn't present a flaw in someone.

Of course receiving it does not. But needing to receive it in order to be satisfied does. This disproves his omnipotence and perfection. He was flawed in needing joy. And he was not powerful enough to create an alternative route to obtain it.

I am going to ask someone if I can paste a part of a PM I sent them...Essentially all of salvation and the afterlife comes down to one question: Who is your life centered on? If it is about yourself then you create your destiny...I'll explain this further.

This is by far the most insulting stereotype of atheists that I have a problem with. I am not selfish. Merely because you cannot comprehend how an individual can be mature enough and loving enough to place others ahead of themselves in life without "big brother," should on no account allow you to dismiss the possibility.

Selflessness doesn't demand love in return for love. Love does not play mans all too common game of quid pro quo. If you read the Bible and replaced the word God with a human name, "Michael." You would think Michael is a wretched person.

Only because Michael would be a person. Michael wouldn't have created everything and placed value on it. God is the one who assigns value therefore everything looks to God for purpose. God grants gifts, we do not earn them.

What type of love is greater than sacrificial love for someone who belongs to you but chose to deny you?

You are applying a rule of this world to a supposedly omnipotent being. He could have programmed it differently but wait...


He does not still love me if I deny him. Love doesn't ask for anything in return. If he really did die for your sins out of love then I shouldn't have to earn the rewards for his great act of love.

Only because Michael would be a person. Michael wouldn't have created everything and placed value on it. God is the one who assigns value therefore everything looks to God for purpose. God grants gifts, we do not earn them.  

Now this I have never understood. There is no since in worshiping hypocrisy. You can't be perfect and a hypocrite.

Jesus was also man. What if Jesus acted like the God of the old Testament? What if he committed genocide like Him? I doubt you would worship Him then.

[Titan]

Everything that Christians claim to be evidence of God is nothing more than a humorously, chimerical justification for why their God just might possibly exist. Aside from believing that even those can be answered there is no overwhelming evidence for it as there is against it.

I'll ask you the same thing I asked Kyu: what qualifies as evidence?

What is also likely is that there is more life in our own universe.

Based on what? I'm not saying that there isn't life elsewhere in the universe, I'm just saying that this doesn't have ANY empirical grounds.

If there are billions if not trillions of of stars and planets in our universe and there are building blocks of the universe called galaxies that contain those stars and planets.... how do we know there isn't something that contains universes? Or something that contains them?

Okay, let's get into what this universe generator is...or more importantly...where did it come from?

Of course not. I like to think and judge for myself and not have someone dump their beliefs into my brain. If I took your word for it then I would also have to take the Muslims word... and the Hindus, and so on... it would never end. Why do you reject their word? Because they have no evidence.

Not beliefs but experiences and findings. You wouldn't accept those?

As I have said repeatedly, there is support. Logical, empirical, philosophical, etc. Furthermore, you didn't read what I said because I told you that the basic causal effects of Santa have been disproven therefore Santa is disproven. This is not the case with God.

That is my point. There is just as much evidence for God as there is for Santa Claus.

Your point is that there is a difference between the evidence for the two? I just proved your comparison wrong, if you were rational you would defend it against my attack or else change your opinion. Neither of which you did.

Obviously Yahweh answers Muslims prayers when they claim their prayers have been answered. Why couldn't it work the other way around? The truth is every faith proclaims miracles and answered prayers. So whoever this god character is it apparently doesn't matter which version of him you believe in so long as you pray. This just goes to show that things just happen. It's a 50/50 shot at whether or not you'll get what you want in life.

This is more complex than I can get into here but has to do with angels and demons...again, people need to go to a country like Indonesia, you will see things you never would have imagined. How is it a 50/50 shot that you will get what you want in life? What are the two equally possible options and how did you come to this conclusion? Furthermore, Christians don't believe that your prayers will be answered simply because you pray.

Of course receiving it does not. But needing to receive it in order to be satisfied does. This disproves his omnipotence and perfection. He was flawed in needing joy. And he was not powerful enough to create an alternative route to obtain it.

You are right if you can demonstrate that God needs joy. Which is simply not the case in the Bible.

This is by far the most insulting stereotype of atheists that I have a problem with. I am not selfish. Merely because you cannot comprehend how an individual can be mature enough and loving enough to place others ahead of themselves in life without "big brother," should on no account allow you to dismiss the possibility.

So you gain nothing from putting others ahead of yourself? But that isn't the point I was making, it is essentially the rejection of God as instilling value...you replace him with yourself.

He does not still love me if I deny him. Love doesn't ask for anything in return. If he really did die for your sins out of love then I shouldn't have to earn the rewards for his great act of love.

But you are wrong, God STILL loves you even if you deny him and it isn't about earning anything. I need to explain this on a more complete basis.

Now this I have never understood. There is no since in worshiping hypocrisy. You can't be perfect and a hypocrite.

Jesus was also man. What if Jesus acted like the God of the old Testament? What if he committed genocide like Him? I doubt you would worship Him then.

You are insinuating that there is no logical evidence, which is simply not true. You can choose to believe whatever you want, FSM, Buddhism, 2 + 2 = 12 but there are beliefs that are more rational then others...ones that answer more with less assumptions and stand up to reasoning better.

Everything that Christians claim to be evidence of God is nothing more than a humorously, chimerical justification for why their God just might possibly exist. Aside from believing that even those can be answered there is no overwhelming evidence for it as there is against it.

Let's take this common theist argument: The theory that the universe is made just right for life that it must have a creator. But we don't even know what our universe is. We know it is expanding. We have a theory of its shape. But we cannot see beyond it. If there are billions if not trillions of of stars and planets in our universe and there are building blocks of the universe called galaxies that contain those stars and planets.... how do we know there isn't something that contains universes? Or something that contains them? What is also likely is that there is more life in our own universe. How would they ever hear the gospel?

So... we do not know how many universes there are. It is thought that the shape of our universe is like that of a folded piece of paper. Suggesting that universes are stacked on top of each other and wormholes would lead into parallel universes. Who knows how many universes there are and how odd it is for its circumstances to support life? We cannot not because we have but only one universe to judge from. You cannot compare apples to oranges when you have never seen an orange. Douglas Adams compared such thinkers to an intelligent puddle of water. Adams said "the puddle is certain that the hole in the ground he occupies must have been designed specifically for him because it fits him so well. The puddle exists under the sun until he has entirely evaporated."

By you personally? You wouldn't take anyone else at their word?

Of course not. I like to think and judge for myself and not have someone dump their beliefs into my brain. If I took your word for it then I would also have to take the Muslims word... and the Hindus, and so on... it would never end. Why do you reject their word? Because they have no evidence.

As I have said repeatedly, there is support. Logical, empirical, philosophical, etc. Furthermore, you didn't read what I said because I told you that the basic causal effects of Santa have been disproven therefore Santa is disproven. This is not the case with God.

That is my point. There is just as much evidence for God as there is for Santa Claus.

So Allah rewarded an infidel? The Mayan gods drew her away from them? The Secret did it for no purpose? What you are saying is rather nonsensical. Secondly, there are people who support her testimony. Again, roommates, friends and family. But explain how she would learn English in an instant through a hallucination? And why would she attribute hard work to something miraculous? Your reasoning is very confusing.

Obviously Yahweh answers Muslims prayers when they claim their prayers have been answered. Why couldn't it work the other way around? The truth is every faith proclaims miracles and answered prayers. So whoever this god character is it apparently doesn't matter which version of him you believe in so long as you pray. This just goes to show that things just happen. It's a 50/50 shot at whether or not you'll get what you want in life.

Receiving joy is different from needing the specific joy from a specific instant. Receiving pleasure doesn't present a flaw in someone.

Of course receiving it does not. But needing to receive it in order to be satisfied does. This disproves his omnipotence and perfection. He was flawed in needing joy. And he was not powerful enough to create an alternative route to obtain it.

I am going to ask someone if I can paste a part of a PM I sent them...Essentially all of salvation and the afterlife comes down to one question: Who is your life centered on? If it is about yourself then you create your destiny...I'll explain this further.

This is by far the most insulting stereotype of atheists that I have a problem with. I am not selfish. Merely because you cannot comprehend how an individual can be mature enough and loving enough to place others ahead of themselves in life without "big brother," should on no account allow you to dismiss the possibility.

Selflessness doesn't demand love in return for love. Love does not play mans all too common game of quid pro quo. If you read the Bible and replaced the word God with a human name, "Michael." You would think Michael is a wretched person.

Only because Michael would be a person. Michael wouldn't have created everything and placed value on it. God is the one who assigns value therefore everything looks to God for purpose. God grants gifts, we do not earn them.

What type of love is greater than sacrificial love for someone who belongs to you but chose to deny you?

You are applying a rule of this world to a supposedly omnipotent being. He could have programmed it differently but wait...


He does not still love me if I deny him. Love doesn't ask for anything in return. If he really did die for your sins out of love then I shouldn't have to earn the rewards for his great act of love.

Only because Michael would be a person. Michael wouldn't have created everything and placed value on it. God is the one who assigns value therefore everything looks to God for purpose. God grants gifts, we do not earn them.

Now this I have never understood. There is no since in worshiping hypocrisy. You can't be perfect and a hypocrite.

Jesus was also man. What if Jesus acted like the God of the old Testament? What if he committed genocide like Him? I doubt you would worship Him then.

Nicene Creed, Jesus was fully man and fully God. Why do you think the Jews were ready to stone him for saying that he was "I Am?" Because he would be the greatest megalomaniac egocentric person to ever have set foot on this earth. The point is that Jesus was actually God. But God isn't prone to exaggeration because you can't exaggerate the good characters of God.

[Sophus]

Titan, my apologies. I need to relocate this to a new thread before the almighty McQ zaps us. We have veered to far from "The paradox of omnipotence and hell." I trust you can find your way to the new thread.

[Titan]

Good thinking...Do you guys want to get back on track with this discussion?