Paradox concerning omnipotence and hell

[TheGerman]

First time poster, so be gentle I've been playing with this paradox for a while and I'd like to get the board's opinion/input on it.

Based on Catholic belief, can we assume that:
- God is omnipotent, meaning he knows all; past, present and future.
- If you do not accept Jesus/God in your life, you will end up in hell.
(if these 'facts' only apply to a smaller branch of Christianity, please correct me)

My argument:
If God is all knowing, he will know before we're born if we will accept Jesus as our savior.  With that, he will also know which ones of us will *not*.  If you do not accept Jesus, you will end up going to hell.  Given those statements, why would God let us come down to earth (I'm assuming we come from heaven before we're born) knowing full-well that some of us will end up in hell?

Metaphorically speaking, why would I let my children travel from our log cabin through the woods and into the city, knowing full-well (being all-knowing, remember?) that little Johnny and little Samantha will be eaten by wolves?  

I don't think that the God-given freedom of choice applies here; sure we have choice, but if you know *everything* that will happen, it is, in effect, set in stone on your end.

Thoughts?  Do my prerequisites or argument need modification?  Is it a valid argument against this particular religious belief?

[Titan]

Hey TheGerman,

This is a profound question, one that I am not really qualified to answer but I will give it my best shot.

God, from a Christian and Catholic perspective, wants everyone to go to heaven but he wants people to CHOOSE to follow him. Heaven is actually worse than hell if you don't believe in God, due to the principle of eternal, infinite shame and resentment.

If God only created people who were going to believe in him he would essentially be negating free will. This is an incredibly complex subject but I'm going to persevere and try to give it a better answer. The reason God would be negating free will is because essentially you are only granted life if you are going to choose him. It would be like someone bringing you to a bar when you don't have any money and saying "You can choose whichever beer you want but I'm only going to pay for it if you purchase this one." Naturally, you have no choice because the situation would necessitate that you would pick the beer that is to be paid for. Christians believe that God reaches out to everyone and therefore he loves and tries to reach those who ultimately don't want to believe in him, regardless of the fact that he knows they are going to defy Him.

I hope this helped a little.

[Kyuuketsuki]

So ...

* The lifelong murdering rapist who repents just before he dies and believes wholly in Jesus and everything he stands will go to Heaven and ...
* The altruistic atheist who spends his entire life right up until death helping others in whatever way he can goes to Hell

... that about right?

Kyu

[Sophus]

Hey TheGerman,

This is a profound question, one that I am not really qualified to answer but I will give it my best shot.

God, from a Christian and Catholic perspective, wants everyone to go to heaven but he wants people to CHOOSE to follow him. Heaven is actually worse than hell if you don't believe in God, due to the principle of eternal, infinite shame and resentment.

If God only created people who were going to believe in him he would essentially be negating free will. This is an incredibly complex subject but I'm going to persevere and try to give it a better answer. The reason God would be negating free will is because essentially you are only granted life if you are going to choose him. It would be like someone bringing you to a bar when you don't have any money and saying "You can choose whichever beer you want but I'm only going to pay for it if you purchase this one." Naturally, you have no choice because the situation would necessitate that you would pick the beer that is to be paid for. Christians believe that God reaches out to everyone and therefore he loves and tries to reach those who ultimately don't want to believe in him, regardless of the fact that he knows they are going to defy Him.

I hope this helped a little.

You cannot choose to believe in God as beliefs are not subject to will. For example, you wake up in the morning and put on a blue shirt. You believe your shirt is blue. If walk up to you and say, "Your shirt is red," you will not truly believe you are wearing a red shirt. However if everyone else says your shirt is red you may conform to fit in and say, "Yup, I have a red shirt. Hallelujah! I always preferred red over blue."

The word belief is a noun. Normally volitions are verbs. Therefore God does not want to see if you will choose him, but rather damn people like me to hell for something out of our control. Or he just doesn't exist which makes a lot more sense.

[Jolly Sapper]

Hey TheGerman,

God, from a Christian and Catholic perspective, wants everyone to go to heaven but he wants people to CHOOSE to follow him. Heaven is actually worse than hell if you don't believe in God, due to the principle of eternal, infinite shame and resentment.

If God only created people who were going to believe in him he would essentially be negating free will.

....

I agree with your logic Titan, but I'm not sure if it addresses the conflict that The German was pointing out.

Assumptions:
 God knows everything with 100% certainty and accuracy (past, present, future).
 God has enough power to make everything.
 God created the beginnings of humanity.
 God is responsible for all human beings (past, present, future).
 God created human being with free choice.

----
Now if God knows all and created everything with the plan that the humans he created would have the free will to choose (to follow God, believe in God, etc) then how would a God that knows how all future events (ie. the choices that us humans will make) be able to create a situation of "free will"?  

It seems to me that as soon as God put a human being in a situation where, logically, the human SHOULD be able to have to make a choice of his/her own free will at the same time God would already know the outcome of the situation (due to omnipotence.)  So, logically, human beings wouldn't really have a choice because as soon as a human being is involved in an event, the outcome is already set in stone (because God already knows the outcome) before the human being gets far enough along into the event to witness the outcome of the human being's actions/choices.

[Titan]

* The lifelong murdering rapist who repents just before he dies and believes wholly in Jesus and everything he stands will go to Heaven and ...
* The altruistic atheist who spends his entire life right up until death helping others in whatever way he can goes to Hell

Yep, but it gives you the wrong impression and I would like to delve into this more. It has to do with God reaching out so far and accepting us on terms such as the first one. But the second is a different matter, why would a person who rejected God want to spend eternity reminded of that?

Therefore God does not want to see if you will choose him, but rather damn people like me to hell for something out of our control. Or he just doesn't exist which makes a lot more sense.

The choice is applicable because you can know that God exists but still choose to reject him. The terms of salvation are rejection or acceptance, not acknowledgment of presence alone. Are you suggesting that it is physically impossible for you to believe in God? I'm slightly confused by your claims, sophus.

Now if God knows all and created everything with the plan that the humans he created would have the free will to choose (to follow God, believe in God, etc) then how would a God that knows how all future events (ie. the choices that us humans will make) be able to create a situation of "free will"?

Because he knows what you are going to choose. If you had chosen B INSTEAD of A that would be the future God knows. The future is dependent on your choice, God simply knows what you are going to choose.

[Sophus]

Well we're not talking physics, but yes it is impossible for some to truly believe in a God. Now if you do believe in him and reject him that's another issue. I am not a God hating, unspiritual theist. I am an atheist. If I believed there were a God to reject then maybe I would not do so. But you cannot reject what you don't know.

So if he were real then God made me, knowing full well that I am not cannot ever even believe he exists. You say if I accept him I'll get a ticket to heaven but in the Bible it says he wants all of your heart. How can I follow something I know is lie. Not think. Keep in mind we can know things for certain and still be wrong (although I never am ).


Here's a few questions. Why would God bother to make us with freewill in order for it to please him? Why would he even desire pleasure? Pain pursues pleasures so how can he in his complete goodness and perfection be unsatisfied? He knows no restraints so why would not the mere thought and knowledge of what creating us would do bring him that pleasure?.... if in fact he lives in all past, present and future. This all suggests he has/had a need. Perfection does not covet. Perfection is complete satisfaction and joy.

[Titan]

Well we're not talking physics, but yes it is impossible for some to truly believe in a God. Now if you do believe in him and reject him that's another issue. I am not a God hating, unspiritual theist. I am an atheist. If I believed there were a God to reject then maybe I would not do so. But you cannot reject what you don't know.

It is impossible for someone to truly believe in a God? Explain, a massive amount of people are going to disagree with you.
You can reject the concept of a God and instead embrace a belief in the self as the locus of existence.

So if he were real then God made me, knowing full well that I am not cannot ever even believe he exists.

He allowed you the option to choose him. How would only making people who would believe in him be an exercise in creating free will?

You say if I accept him I'll get a ticket to heaven but in the Bible it says he wants all of your heart. How can I follow something I know is lie. Not think. Keep in mind we can know things for certain and still be wrong (although I never am ).

I'll explain this if you tell me how you can accept him and believe he exists if you "know" he is a lie and if you tell me how you can "know" there is no God without being a god yourself?

Why would God bother to make us with freewill in order for it to please him? Why would he even desire pleasure?

Great questions.
God doesn't need pleasure, but he is perfect AND selfless and wants others to be able to experience joy in him, even if that means that some ultimately reject him.

Pain pursues pleasures so how can he in his complete goodness and perfection be unsatisfied?

He can be perfect and be displeased with something, what are you suggesting he is unsatisfied with?

He knows no restraints so why would not the mere thought and knowledge of what creating us would do bring him that pleasure?

Because it isn't just about him.

This all suggests he has/had a need. Perfection does not covet. Perfection is complete satisfaction and joy.

Have you ever heard the term righteous jealousy?

[Tom62]

In these kind of discussions I always wonder about the following contradiction. Whenever someone comes up with a difficult question, like f.i. why does God not stop this or why doesn't he do that then we normally can expect the theistic reply that "God works in mysterious ways" or "God has his own plan" etc. But when it comes to refuting atheists about topics like morality or free will then theists always know precisely what God thinks and how he operates.  Like in:

So if he were real then God made me, knowing full well that I am not cannot ever even believe he exists.

He allowed you the option to choose him. How would only making people who would believe in him be an exercise in creating free will?

To me that scores very high in the BS department. How on Earth do theists come to such a conclusion? If God is such a mystery (or esoteric, like living outside space and time  ) then there is no way that we normal beings can even have a single clue about his wishes, his desires and his plan for mankind. It might well be that he really doesn't give a sh#t about his creations or that he hates grovelers and people that sprout nonsense in his name

[Kyuuketsuki]

* The lifelong murdering rapist who repents just before he dies and believes wholly in Jesus and everything he stands will go to Heaven and ...
* The altruistic atheist who spends his entire life right up until death helping others in whatever way he can goes to Hell

Yep, but it gives you the wrong impression and I would like to delve into this more. It has to do with God reaching out so far and accepting us on terms such as the first one. But the second is a different matter, why would a person who rejected God want to spend eternity reminded of that?

No ...it pretty much demonstrates that your god *is* an ego-maniacal bastard that I wouldn't voluntarily bend a knee to even if the vicious f*** was real!

Kyu

[karadan]

So ...

* The lifelong murdering rapist who repents just before he dies and believes wholly in Jesus and everything he stands will go to Heaven and ...
* The altruistic atheist who spends his entire life right up until death helping others in whatever way he can goes to Hell

... that about right?

Kyu

I posed basically the same question to a christian girl i know and her answer was quite plainly, 'Yes'....

Although she was quick to point out that no real christian would ever do anything nasty like that...

Sheesh.

[Titan]

Whenever someone comes up with a difficult question, like f.i. why does God not stop this or why doesn't he do that then we normally can expect the theistic reply that "God works in mysterious ways" or "God has his own plan" etc. But when it comes to refuting atheists about topics like morality or free will then theists always know precisely what God thinks and how he operates.

It's because there are distinctions to be made. There are clear ones where we can understand the will of God and there are ones where we have to trust.

To me that scores very high in the BS department. How on Earth do theists come to such a conclusion? If God is such a mystery (or esoteric, like living outside space and time ) then there is no way that we normal beings can even have a single clue about his wishes, his desires and his plan for mankind.

How do you come to that conclusion? You would have to say the same thing about a child and their parents wishes. That because a child doesn't know why a parent told them not to touch the red top of the stop doesn't mean that they don't know why the parent doesn't want them to hit their brother. Sometimes parents have told their kids explicitly why the child shouldn't do one thing and simply said "don't do this" about another thing. So please, if you would, explain how you can justify this in relation to a child knowing the will of the parent. By your conception a small child can either a) always know why the parent made the decision they did or b) never know. Which is it?

Kyu

No ...it pretty much demonstrates that your god *is* an ego-maniacal bastard that I wouldn't voluntarily bend a knee to even if the vicious f*** was real!

LOL...I knew it would give you the wrong impression. The amazing thing is that as rational as you claim to be you aren't even open-minded enough to listen to an answer. You've already come to a conclusion and have constructed some pretty nice walls of anger and ignorance.

[Kyuuketsuki]

No ...it pretty much demonstrates that your god *is* an ego-maniacal bastard that I wouldn't voluntarily bend a knee to even if the vicious f*** was real!

LOL...I knew it would give you the wrong impression. The amazing thing is that as rational as you claim to be you aren't even open-minded enough to listen to an answer. You've already come to a conclusion and have constructed some pretty nice walls of anger and ignorance.

Oh trust me, just because I swear doesn't mean I'm angry ... merely utterly contemptuous of the kind of reasoning I see theists give.

Being open-minded doesn't mean I have to accept every crap argument as having the same value as reasoned ones:
"There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out." Richard Dawkins

Also, that you keep coming back at me demonstrates I am nowhere near as ignorant as you'd like to believe I am

Kyu

[Sophus]

It is impossible for someone to truly believe in a God? Explain, a massive amount of people are going to disagree with you.
You can reject the concept of a God and instead embrace a belief in the self as the locus of existence.

If you would have read or remembered my previous post you would have found your answer but I'll post it again:

"You cannot choose to believe in God as beliefs are not subject to will. For example, you wake up in the morning and put on a blue shirt. You believe your shirt is blue. If walk up to you and say, "Your shirt is red," you will not truly believe you are wearing a red shirt. However if everyone else says your shirt is red you may conform to fit in and say, "Yup, I have a red shirt. Hallelujah! I always preferred red over blue anyways."

The word belief is a noun. Normally volitions are verbs."

Your mind can either cognitively understand something or not. You're not rejecting anything.

He allowed you the option to choose him. How would only making people who would believe in him be an exercise in creating free will?

No he allowed me the option to choose to follow him if I believe he exists. But since I was created a person who needs evidence for his existence, and all the evidence I have found if aginst his existence, I do not belive he exists. Hence the reason I do not choose to follow him. Tell me, can you, Titan, choose to believe in Santa Claus? Assuming your answer is no then I would imagine the reason why is because too much evidence goes against it. However you should probably choose to follow Santa Claus beause if you don't you might get coal this year.

I'll explain this if you tell me how you can accept him and believe he exists if you "know" he is a lie and if you tell me how you can "know" there is no God without being a god yourself?

My crux is that it is excpected of me, by Christians, to accept him even though I do not believe he exisits. That belief can never change unless evidence is presented. If you have evidence that is not a tiresome cliche, fire away! I'm all ears.

Great questions.
God doesn't need pleasure, but he is perfect AND selfless and wants others to be able to experience joy in him, even if that means that some ultimately reject him.

Then why create us at all? Normally joy is recieved by one who gives it.

He can be perfect and be displeased with something, what are you suggesting he is unsatisfied with?

Nope. Even among humans it is admirable and considered mature to not desire. After all that is where true peace comes from. So he wasn't satisfied being alone therefore he needed us. How is god still a god when he is needy?

Because it isn't just about him.

Considering that the Bible says our purpose is to glorify him, I would say that it is.

Have you ever heard the term righteous jealousy?

Yes, and jealousy and justice cannot co-exist with love. Unconditional love values mercy over justice. It is impossible for something to be both. Aside from that he is sinning according to his book.

[Tom62]

Whenever someone comes up with a difficult question, like f.i. why does God not stop this or why doesn't he do that then we normally can expect the theistic reply that "God works in mysterious ways" or "God has his own plan" etc. But when it comes to refuting atheists about topics like morality or free will then theists always know precisely what God thinks and how he operates.

It's because there are distinctions to be made. There are clear ones where we can understand the will of God and there are ones where we have to trust.

Which distinctions are you talking about? For those questions for which theists can find an "appropriate" text in the Bible and those questions which  cannot be answered without sounding like a fool? No wonder that I sometimes get the impression that a discussion with a theists is like trying to catch a slippery eel with greased hands  :crazy:) then there is no way that we normal beings can even have a single clue about his wishes, his desires and his plan for mankind.[/quote]
How do you come to that conclusion? You would have to say the same thing about a child and their parents wishes. That because a child doesn't know why a parent told them not to touch the red top of the stop doesn't mean that they don't know why the parent doesn't want them to hit their brother. Sometimes parents have told their kids explicitly why the child shouldn't do one thing and simply said "don't do this" about another thing. So please, if you would, explain how you can justify this in relation to a child knowing the will of the parent. By your conception a small child can either a) always know why the parent made the decision they did or b) never know. Which is it?[/quote]
When you are a grown up you understand why some of the parents rules made any sense and why others don't. For those ones you don't understand and bother you,  you could always ask your parents for an explanation. You may not like their replies, but at least you get some answers and you may respect them for what they are. God on the other hand is a vague, imaginary and mysterious being that doesn't even respect the "moral" codes of his "own" Bible. He is therefore not the right person to pose any of his laws on us and is definitively not a good parent. In the OT he had a physical presence that annoyed a lot of people (like flooding the Earth, granting his people the right to exterminate other tribes just because they needed more land, sending plagues to Egypt for no apparent reasons, etc. etc.). In the NT he is no longer there, but he had sent his son here so that he could be tortured and killed. That truly makes him a wonderful father figure  :brick:  that is to me!