SIKH A LEARNER

[sehajk5]

hello every one,
as there have been discussion going on about sikhism, after reading some of the posts it seems that people do not seem to be interested in the holy book of Sikhism because of the poetry. there are variety of articles which can help clear the understanding of sikhism if any one is interested to learn more about it with the intention to gain extra knowledge. the articles can be found at http://fateh.sikhnet.com/Articles
Thank you
Sehaj Kaur

[Squid]

"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth." - Book of House 1:19



"We don't come alone. We are fire, we are stone. We're the hand that writes then quickly moves away." Chronicles of Dio 2:2

[rlrose328]

Shoot, Squid... I couldn't ever see your avatar closely enough to realize that was Ronnie!  Great pic, straight from the website.  You've got great taste!  

[Squid]

Two true prophets who will never let ya down - Dio and House.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Picking a couple of quotes of your scriptural preachy garbage at random ...

ਜੇ ਸਉ ਚੰਦਾ ਉਗਵਹਿ ਸà©,ਰਜ ਚੜਹਿ ਹਜਾਰ ॥
If a hundred moons were to rise, and a thousand suns appeared,
 
ਏਤੇ ਚਾਨਣ ਹੋਦਿਆà¨, ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਘੋਰ à¨...ੰਧਾਰ ॥੨॥
even with such light, there would still be pitch darkness without the Guru. ||2||

... did no one ever tell you that you're not going to convince any rational atheist of the spiritual value of these things because they've rejected this kind of crap long ago and for very good reason, that the only way you'll get through to them is by reasoned argument or brainwashing?

I am forced to ask what your true agenda is here because you're either incredibly arrogant & stupid or you're a troll. Why don't you go tell it to some people who really care (not to say we don't but we certainly don't care for your god, only about the horrors various deity's followers can do in their chosen god's name)?

Kyu

[Jolly Sapper]

hello every one,
as there have been discussion going on about sikhism, after reading some of the posts it seems that people do not seem to be interested in the holy book of Sikhism because of the poetry. there are variety of articles which can help clear the understanding of sikhism if any one is interested to learn more about it with the intention to gain extra knowledge. the articles can be found at http://fateh.sikhnet.com/Articles
Thank you
Sehaj Kaur

Its not the poetry that is the target of the criticisms but the claims that have been made about the book.  I doubt that any of the critics here have anything negative to say about any inspiration or sense of fulfillment Sikhism brings you.  I too have read texts and listened to people who left me filled with a painful amount of inspiration, but I haven't tried to make the claim that the texts were divine or the speakers were channeling the words of a deity.

i like to think of it this way (I hope this analogy doesn't alienate the non-western posters in this thread):

The "mix tape" or CD or play list, etc.  I can go out of my way to catalog a list of songs and copy them to a tape or CD in an order that gives me a great deal of joy and sense of inner calm.  The songs and the order that I've arranged them consistently have this effect on me.

Would I be correct in claiming that my custom play list or mix-tape/CD is the greatest arrangement of music on the planet?  Would I be correct in assuming that everybody on the planet who listened to the arrangement of songs would experience the exact same feelings of joy and inner calm?

My answer to those two questions is, "No."  My claim that my custom play list is the greatest arrangement of music on the planet is not a statement of fact but my opinion, based on my reactions to the songs.  Also, there may be some on the planet who would experience the same feelings of joy and inner calm when listening to the arrangement of songs, but not everybody will.  

In the same why I'm pretty certain that my custom play list isn't going to inspire a sense of joy and inner calm in everybody, the spiritual beliefs and texts of Sikhism aren't going to inspire the same joy, inner peace, calm, etc in everybody as it does the followers of Sikhism.

 Its like a self fulfilling prophecy, or a feed back loop, where the people most receptive to Sikhism will follow Sikhism, reinforcing the already held belief that Sikhism has the ability to give people something they were seeking.  I'd imagine that this holds true for all belief systems, those most open to the Chocolate flavor of Christianity tend to find themselves being a follower of Chocolate Christianity.  If the person most open to the Chocolate flavor of Christianity were to try other flavors before finding Chocolate, then the person would not feel the same level of satisfaction.  

This seems to mirror what all of us on this message board have gone through.  You Sikhs found Sikhism after trying to be atheists and Catholics while there only seem to be a few of us atheists who were always atheists.  We all tried to believe things that we just didn't fit into (hehe... I just remembered my underwear analogy from another post   ) until we found something that we could fit into.

[wazzz]

sorry dude but Sikh is no religion :hail:  :hail:  
I've known new stuff about Sikh  

[karakara]

Jolly Sapper and Faithless do have valid points:

Copying and pasting so many verses should be avoided as it probably is little more than fancy poetry to most of us non-believers.

I don't encourage anyone to present verse to bolster an argument or help with an explanation.I know that when I meet a Muslim who vomits Q'uranic verse after verse to prove the reality of the virgins in heaven, or why Muhammed wants, for example, for him to kick every dog as he walks down the street (don't laugh, I had to endure this from a practitioner of 'The Religion of Peace' recently), I don't appreciate it.  I don't believe GURSIKH was intentionally being obnoxious, rather he
probably isn't  completely familiar with the etiquette of this forum. Knowing this gentlemen from another forum where he feels more
at home, he's as considerate and decent a person as you'll meet.

[karakara]

OH, there I go, now I'll be accused of Muslim-bashing, which for me personally I know many fine Muslims who left their repressive homelands and live in the
U.S. to just raise their families in freedom and who are definitely not pushing for Sharia.. also, as a Sikh I am not supposed to 'bash' or slander other faiths. There is a fine line, however, between directed, intentional slander, and simply stating a fact. In fact, I've run into difficulty in even attempting to define what a Sikh is and what we believe in.. no matter how I define it, I'm accused of bashing other faiths.. and Sikhs are most guilty of this self-censorship(!), to a fault. Even if I define a Sikh by what we are NOT, this implies a comparison to another faith.. and other Sikhs might reprimand me...  I don't know if any other religion that goes to such extremes not to offend other faiths.. oops, even by saying this I'm slandering them. See? Of course, I correct them.. our founding Gurus had no problem in confronting irrational practices and beliefs of other faiths.. hell, that's how we grew so fast in India in the first place. I think our founders had bigger stones than the rank and file Sikhs today, for the most part.

Well, the above frustration with a Muslim hitting me with volumes of Q'uranic verse is true, and it was a spirited defense of his insistence that he'd get to deflower 72 virgins in heaven and why he feels that Allah and Muhammed command him to abuse dogs.. the verse he gave was cryptic at best, and wide open to interpretation. Muslim friends who may take exception, I wasn't speaking about you, unless you also agree about the virgins and dog abuse.

[McQ]

karakara thanks for sticking around and continuing to post your thoughts. Much appreciated. I hope this discourse can continue in this type of good natured format.

[karakara]

Distinguished Moderator,

Here here, I hope I can keep it together without losing it too often.. anyway, that's one thing I'm supposed to internalize according to my faith, but I've always been an attack dog by nature. It's tough to transform a personality 40 years in the making, or at least temper that particular negative aspect of my personality.  It's  truly a challenge.

[karakara]

Since the topic of this thread is, ostensibly, Sikhism.. that, and the allergic reaction to some perceived spamming by a beloved fellow Sikh.. well, let me say here an now that neither I, nor any other real Sikh believes in prosthelitizing for the purpose of converting anyone from their exiting faith, even if that 'Faith', insofar as they believe it to be such, is Atheism. As I alluded to previously, and maybe 'sacriligiously' (irony intended ;-), Atheists can be just as spiritual in their own way, by their own definitions.. outside of established, organized theologies....

We do accept converts from other faiths, but most Sikhs will advise the person who wants to convert to Sikh to discuss with relatives and religious elders/leaders of their own faith first. After all, the problem could be simply going to a bad Mosque, Church, bad local leaders, etc. We usually advise people who already live in a culture and religion other than Sikh to simply try to live up to the best teachings of their faith, rather than convert. You see, we believe that there is validity in all religions.. God can be found in all religions. Any individual can attain 'God Actualization' on their own, directly, without priestly hierarchy or necessarily even withing a framework of a theology. There are many paths to God.. no single religion has 'exclusive rights'.. to us, this "__________ is the Only Way to God" tendency is an extremely primitive and ego-based concept of religion. In fact, for some people, no 'religion' at all is needed. Most devout Sikhs will admit that Sikhism isn't really a 'Religion', in the Western sense of the word, but a 'Dharmic Path'.

So, If they truly wish to convert, of course we accept them, but not for 'bragging rights' .. we have an ingrained doctrinal as well as collective understanding of 'ego' getting in the way of God's plan for us.. and although much 'ego-based' thought and action can be difficult to define, as they say 'we know it when we see it'. If we were to take a million followers from, say, Christianity or Islam, what would we gain? Nothing. What good are a million followers unless we simply believe in the strength and legitimacy of numbers? To be Khalsa, or baptised Sikh (aka: Saint-Soldier) is far, far more intellectually, morally, physically, etc., demanding than simply repeating a one-time assertion of this or that, and thereafter being a 'member' of a faith.. fine, this is good for many, and many go beyond simply having a religiously affiliated label put on them, and nothing else... but then is this person a chiseled, tempered, rounded, developed, balanced person of equal part courage and compassion.. or can this person (or a billion of his fellows) be simply a thug who has taken a pledge.. but has not internalized and metamorphosised into a superior Human Being? If you go for sheer numbers, and the political power that this will bring, you want to keep the entry requirements as low as possible. If you value truth and quality over quantity, the entry requirements are equally high.

But again, with our 'million' hypothetical converts, we do not gain 'bragging rights', but we view it as 1 million individuals getting a proven path to God, as well as many other benefits, not the least of which is personal dignity and awareness of their inner divinity, and all that this entails.

Having said all this, anyone not currently in touch with any aspect of their own spirituality and/or inner divinity is someone whom we would definitely like to talk to, even if they decide to join another faith or ultimately remain Atheist.

Fateh! Waheguru! (Fateh means 'Victory', but in this sense, victory for all of us, you and me both -- Waheguru is 'God', i.e., 'Wonderful Lord'

[karakara]

Speaking of Waheguru.. a name, word, sound that never fails to hit the emotion center of a Sikh's brain, we chant and meditate on the name of God, Waheguru, as well as other names of the Creator.

Knowing that Atheists can never get enough 'God Chanting', here's a nice example of what looks like (and truly is) entertainment, being a concert
performace, but the spiritual aspect of this Shabad (holy verse) is overwhelming and considered direct channeling of God through the performer.

Enjoy 'Waheguru' friends, you'll still be Atheists when it finishes ;-) .. or maybe not...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LeFYbouKn8

[McQ]

Speaking of Waheguru.. a name, word, sound that never fails to hit the emotion center of a Sikh's brain, we chant and meditate on the name of God, Waheguru, as well as other names of the Creator.

Knowing that Atheists can never get enough 'God Chanting', here's a nice example of what looks like (and truly is) entertainment, being a concert
performace, but the spiritual aspect of this Shabad (holy verse) is overwhelming and considered direct channeling of God through the performer.

Enjoy 'Waheguru' friends, you'll still be Atheists when it finishes ;-) .. or maybe not...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LeFYbouKn8

Wow. That was really beautiful music. Very peaceful, pretty, and passionately played. Thanks for posting the link. I'm curious what the instrument was that Snatum Kaur was playing. Not the violin, the other one, with the bellows and keyboard.

[karakara]

McQ Ji,

LOL, I wasn't expecting anyone to actually click the link so soon, but in any group there are always a few brave and curious souls!

For us, when we hear such music (it can be Kirtan, Gurbani, Shabads etc.. you'll hear it described as such) it's not just a woman singing.. in this case, the channeled words of our Gurus.. our Gurus (For Westerners, replace 'Guru' with 'Pope', fair analogy) are speaking to us through her, and for some Shabads, the word of God Himself (figure of speech: God is genderless, indescribable)  This shabad is: Akhaan Jor from Snatam Kaur Khalsa's album 'Shanti' . It's a gem.

The instrument that she's playing is called a 'Harmonium', and the story goes like this: Back in the bad old days of early Christian missionary work in India, some groups brought the Harmonium to assist in playing Gospel music.. the instrument is easy to learn, easy to transport, has a keyboard and bellows, and is very versatile. By the way, this was when 'Missionaries' would stand outside Hindu temples and curse the Hindus to damnation (at the top of their lungs, no less!) and warn them to convert to Christianity... (yes, and these missionaries had not bothered to read a word of the ancient Vedas, Upanishads, or Bhagavad Gita)...for believing in multiple gods, etc... yes, how nice. As I've read, they didn't dare do this outside of Sikh temples, but no matter. Well, both Hindus and Sikhs basically said: Thank you very much for your opinion of our religons.. you can keep your Bibles and gospel music, but we'll take that spiffy Harmonium.. since then, especially Sikhs have integrated Harmonium into almost all Sikh music.

Sat Nam, Waheguru!