Old Testament Pfft, Jesus is the MAN!

[Asmodean]

...or that if he is, is no "dictator".

...Which is sort of indicative of the lack of need to believe in and/or worship him to get all the goodies, no?

...which equates justice and dictatorship.

...Unless of course you are saying that justice is not about personal preference.

[AnimatedDirt]

Simple logic, according to you.

I could use the same argument using Ra, the bird gid of the Sun.  :\

You could.  However neither of these make the same claim.

[Sweetdeath]

Meant bird god up there ^


Your beliefs are personal. It doesnt make them a fact.

[AnimatedDirt]

Meant bird god up there ^

Your beliefs are personal. It doesnt make them a fact.

I believe you're making a point well established already.  Both sides agree.  The believer cannot prove God.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Simple logic, according to you.

I could use the same argument using Ra, the bird gid of the Sun.  :\

You could, if you had had any personal experience with Ra that you considered genuine. Have you?

[Asmodean]

You could, if you had had any personal experience with Ra that you considered genuine. Have you?

Could you though? Oh, sure, you could do a "My best guess is..." argument, or any other purely speculative variety, but with no way of verifying the accuracy of your own interpretation of your experience, how is such an argument to hold water with any one else?

[AnimatedDirt]

You could, if you had had any personal experience with Ra that you considered genuine. Have you?

Could you though? Oh, sure, you could do a "My best guess is..." argument, or any other purely speculative variety, but with no way of verifying the accuracy of your own interpretation of your experience, how is such an argument to hold water with any one else?

I think HAF is full of people expressing personal experiences with no way of verifying the accuracy and yet most of the members are quick to offer advice/opinions/condolences/encouragement...and rightly so.

[Asmodean]

A different issue.

For example, I do not inflict the consequences of having a different experience than my own on others. However, it is a common trait among many theists to apply their own personal god to me, you and the guy next door. If I do consider my experience to be larger than self and present it as such, I have to present a means to verify that what I say is not just a pile of bullshit.

As long as personal remains personal though, there is no problem.

[AnimatedDirt]

A different issue.

For example, I do not inflict the consequences of having a different experiene than my own on others. However, it is a common trait among many theists to apply their own personal god to me, you and the guy next door. If I do, I have to present a means to verify that what I say is not just a pile of bullshit.

As long as personal remains personal and is presented as such, there is no problem.

Really.  How are the "consequences" inflicted on you?  I can understand a person not liking the beliefs of another person, but to feel like the consequences are being inflicted on you...I don't understand.  It seems you may put too much weight on those you deem delusional...?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

You could, if you had had any personal experience with Ra that you considered genuine. Have you?

Could you though? Oh, sure, you could do a "My best guess is..." argument, or any other purely speculative variety, but with no way of verifying the accuracy of your own interpretation of your experience, how is such an argument to hold water with any one else?

The only issue is if it is convincing to you. If the experience, upon considering it, convinces you that it was legitimate, then you can move forward on that assumption.  It may not convince anyone else, but if it convinces you, then you have your own working hypothesis, and you can test it for yourself in daily life - does it give you peace, does it get you through a crisis, does it resolve existential angst, etc.

[Asmodean]

does it give you peace, does it get you through a crisis, does it resolve existential angst, etc.

...Neither of which speak to the accuracy of your interpretation of it. I'd rather be an angst-ridden train wreck than live my life based on weak suppositions.

Really.  How are the "consequences" inflicted on you?  I can understand a person not liking the beliefs of another person, but to feel like the consequences are being inflicted on you...I don't understand.  It seems you may put too much weight on those you deem delusional...?

When you* (*impersonal throughout) say your god loves me and wants me to live forever in his kingdom and will frown upon my misdeeds, you inflict your god on me. When you go to a house of worship in the morning and they start ringing their bells, yelling through loudspeakers and the like, your personal shit disturbs my peace and quiet.

It is totally up to you to believe whatever you please, regardless of its accuracy, morality or standard of proof, but I'd rather you not ignore any of those if your belief reaches outside your own mind.

[AnimatedDirt]

does it give you peace, does it get you through a crisis, does it resolve existential angst, etc.

...Neither of which speak to the accuracy of your interpretation of it. I'd rather be an angst-ridden train wreck than live my life based on weak suppositions.

Really.  How are the "consequences" inflicted on you?  I can understand a person not liking the beliefs of another person, but to feel like the consequences are being inflicted on you...I don't understand.  It seems you may put too much weight on those you deem delusional...?

When you* (*impersonal throughout) say your god loves me and wants me to live forever in his kingdom and will frown upon my misdeeds, you inflict your god on me. When you go to a house of worship in the morning and they start ringing their bells, yelling through loudspeakers and the like, your personal shit disturbs my peace and quiet.

It is totally up to you to believe whatever you please, regardless of its accuracy, morality or standard of proof, but I'd rather you not ignore any of those if your belief reaches outside your own mind.

If you do not believe, then how is it inflicted upon you?  Bells, loudspeakers?  If you live too close to a church that rings their bells on their worship morning...move.  Each is within their right to do so otherwise there would be a law against moving and/or ringing bells.

[Sweetdeath]

does it give you peace, does it get you through a crisis, does it resolve existential angst, etc.

...Neither of which speak to the accuracy of your interpretation of it. I'd rather be an angst-ridden train wreck than live my life based on weak suppositions.

Really.  How are the "consequences" inflicted on you?  I can understand a person not liking the beliefs of another person, but to feel like the consequences are being inflicted on you...I don't understand.  It seems you may put too much weight on those you deem delusional...?

When you* (*impersonal throughout) say your god loves me and wants me to live forever in his kingdom and will frown upon my misdeeds, you inflict your god on me. When you go to a house of worship in the morning and they start ringing their bells, yelling through loudspeakers and the like, your personal shit disturbs my peace and quiet.

It is totally up to you to believe whatever you please, regardless of its accuracy, morality or standard of proof, but I'd rather you not ignore any of those if your belief reaches outside your own mind.

Oh boy , i live across the street  from a church, so the bells/preaching through loud speakers--  i have experienced personally.

AD, are you being sarcastic? Personal belief affects everyone, because the problem is: .no one keeps it to themselves!

When people ask me in the park on my lunchbreak for donations to their missionary trip to thailand. It affects me. And annoys me, cuz now i know they are going to try to preach their god dellusion to thailand natives.

Laws in the U. S are made under rhe personal god belief that homosexuals are "not natural" and dont deserve basic human rights, cuz jeebus says so.

So, hmm.. Is Asmo or me affected? I'd say yes.

[Asmodean]

If you do not believe, then how is it inflicted upon you?

Me personally? Let me see... People at my door trying to sell me some god before daylight, an occasional lunatic on the street that stops me not to ask for something good and valid like directions or a cigarette... Or even a tenner, for that matter, but whether or not I have "found jesus", the word "Christian" appearing in my constitution, symbolic as it is since recent changes, people wanting me dead, burned in hell or otherwise inconvenienced for not sharing in their delusions, losing a friend to his own god and another to his parents considering me bad influence for lacking one... It's a long list.

So that is how other people's gods affect me. And you know what, if they could provide any form of good, rational and verifiable reason for it being so, I would live with it and shut up. As long as it's about "Ah, but I have this feeling and I know I'm right deep inside my soul and I have a soul by the way and so do you and therefor you have to put up with my shit without any real chance of opting out" though, I object to the practices that take gods out of people's minds and shove them down other people's throats.

Bells, loudspeakers?  If you live too close to a church that rings their bells on their worship morning...move.  Each is within their right to do so otherwise there would be a law against moving and/or ringing bells.

There is a law against bells above a certain decibel count. That said, why should I be the one to move? I do not pollute mailboxes with leaflets (poor rainforest...) and my neighbourhood with noise, not more than my neighbours - less than most in fact, less than those with kids and/or dogs and/or motorcycles, at least. Let the damned church move some ten kilometers from civilization. Let them ring their damned bells and yell prayers to their damned Allah there.

[Sweetdeath]

I know what its like to lose a friend to religion....
My jr. h.s friend since i was  15. We dont see eechother at all . His mom goes to church 5 days a week and he believes my "choice in lifestyle" is sinful. I had to walk away from that negativity.

Sorry to hear that, Asmo.