Old Testament Pfft, Jesus is the MAN!

[fester30]

In the New Covenant, God's commandments are to believe in Jesus and love one another.  I John 3:23.  That makes a lot of sense to me: simple faith in God and loving action toward one's fellow man.  I have no desire to be a murderous sadistic rapist, and I doubt that anyone who sincerely attempts to "love one another" has such a desire, either.  Hard to imagine wanting to love others and at the same time rape and murder them.  Perhaps it has happened, but those are not tendencies that I have found in myself.

But then there's Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

You can't just cast aside the law and original commandments.  The new covenant is there to keep believers from having to sacrifice a lamb every year, not so that they can ignore the old law.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

So in my opinion an atheist is more likely to be tolerant, accepting, non judgmental and respecting. These are all aspects of love.
So if we were to measure the love on an ungodly atheist against a faithful Christian, well, in general I feel the atheist is more loving.

I'm not going to try to defend Christians in general on these points. I do know some who come pretty close to Christ's teachings on love. It is an ideal that is, IMHO, worth striving for.  If you can reach that goal without faith, I can't say anything negative about your behavior.  For me, faith is part of that ideal, but that's just me.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

In the New Covenant, God's commandments are to believe in Jesus and love one another.  I John 3:23.  That makes a lot of sense to me: simple faith in God and loving action toward one's fellow man.  I have no desire to be a murderous sadistic rapist, and I doubt that anyone who sincerely attempts to "love one another" has such a desire, either.  Hard to imagine wanting to love others and at the same time rape and murder them.  Perhaps it has happened, but those are not tendencies that I have found in myself.

But then there's Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

You can't just cast aside the law and original commandments.  The new covenant is there to keep believers from having to sacrifice a lamb every year, not so that they can ignore the old law.

Yeah, I've argued my interpretation of this over and over.  Jesus came to fulfill, and he accomplished what he came for.  Therefore, the law and the prophets "passed away."  That's why he could make the new covenant.  The law and prophets no longer apply, as they were fulfilled in Jesus.  That's my take on it.

[Stevil]

So in my opinion an atheist is more likely to be tolerant, accepting, non judgmental and respecting. These are all aspects of love.
So if we were to measure the love on an ungodly atheist against a faithful Christian, well, in general I feel the atheist is more loving.

I'm not going to try to defend Christians in general on these points. I do know some who come pretty close to Christ's teachings on love. It is an ideal that is, IMHO, worth striving for.  If you can reach that goal without faith, I can't say anything negative about your behavior.  For me, faith is part of that ideal, but that's just me.

It seems a bit disappointing to me to see intolerance born of organisations or religious teachings where naturally that intolerance wouldn't have existed.
e.g. go onto atheist forums and see if people are anti homosexual, the vast, vast majority couldn't care less what people do consensually in the privacy of their own homes.
But go to religious forums and you find a large amount of people who are strongly against letting people live certain lifestyles.

I liken atheism to be the "natural" position, simply because we don't have teachings or guides or coordinated communities. We just behave and think how each of us individually think we ought to (of course influenced by society and culture etc)
So naturally people are tolerant, after a certain age of course. It takes teaching to move us away from this position, and this is why people belonging to a church or religion tend to have a biassed way of thinking, -different from other co-ordinated groups and different from the uncoordinated groups.

When I see a nun's habbit or a priest's white collar I don't see it any different to swastika or a KKK pointy hat or a skin heads bald head. Symbols of hate groups.
I know this is probably unfair on religion because not all religious subscribe to the hate, but there is certainly an "unnaturally" high proportion of hate in those groups.

[Sweetdeath]

When their vicitims give it to them, it shows how dellussional.

Love thy enemy?
How about not.

I have not walked in a victim's shoes, I can't possibly understand what it would be like.

From my ignorant perspective,
A victim needs to forgive, not with regards to giving the attacker forgiveness, but with regards to letting go of the hate brewing inside the self. The attacker deserves nothing, certainly not any further thought within the victim's head, for this thought perpetuates the crime and torments the victim.
The victim needs to let go, to move on, to pickup the pieces as best as they can. Vengeance and justice are mere day dreams, illusions of some sort of expectation of cosmic justice.

To forgive is to free the self, to put thoughts on to more important things and people other than the attacker. The attacker is nothing, not the scum on a dirty shoe nor the crud in an old washing machine. Nothing. Maybe attackers hurt people because they want to feel alive, want to know that they exist.
Eradicating them from all thoughts, they will cease to exist (from the victim's perspective), cease to be part of the victim's life.
They don't deserve to be part of the victim's life, the victim is not defined by the attack or the attacker, the attacker is less than meaningless.

Anyway, easier said than done.

I agree with this
Don't get me wrong, i didnt mean grew bitter and plot revenge. Obviously every crime affects people differently.
I agree to not forgive  per say, but to "let go and move on"
You are totally right. They are worth nothing.


But i cant shake the feeling a religious person saying "love thy enemy". It means something different.

[Sweetdeath]

So in my opinion an atheist is more likely to be tolerant, accepting, non judgmental and respecting. These are all aspects of love.
So if we were to measure the love on an ungodly atheist against a faithful Christian, well, in general I feel the atheist is more loving.

I'm not going to try to defend Christians in general on these points. I do know some who come pretty close to Christ's teachings on love. It is an ideal that is, IMHO, worth striving for.  If you can reach that goal without faith, I can't say anything negative about your behavior.  For me, faith is part of that ideal, but that's just me.

It seems a bit disappointing to me to see intolerance born of organisations or religious teachings where naturally that intolerance wouldn't have existed.
e.g. go onto atheist forums and see if people are anti homosexual, the vast, vast majority couldn't care less what people do consensually in the privacy of their own homes.
But go to religious forums and you find a large amount of people who are strongly against letting people live certain lifestyles.

I liken atheism to be the "natural" position, simply because we don't have teachings or guides or coordinated communities. We just behave and think how each of us individually think we ought to (of course influenced by society and culture etc)
So naturally people are tolerant, after a certain age of course. It takes teaching to move us away from this position, and this is why people belonging to a church or religion tend to have a biassed way of thinking, -different from other co-ordinated groups and different from the uncoordinated groups.

When I see a nun's habbit or a priest's white collar I don't see it any different to swastika or a KKK pointy hat or a skin heads bald head. Symbols of hate groups.
I know this is probably unfair on religion because not all religious subscribe to the hate, but there is certainly an "unnaturally" high proportion of hate in those groups.

We were born without religion anyway.
Atheists are nice, mean, whatever. But at least they have the guts to admit their feelings are their own, based on experience and life. They dont use an old out dated book, or fictional god as a scapegoat for their hatred and biggotry.

I feel a bit disgusted when i see preists and nuns in person as well. Rabbis especially, because the jewish teachings can be bad, if not worse than christianity.

There is a big scandal going on in NYC at the moment, because a Rabbi in a brooklyn community is   being accused of child molestation by several girls....

I'm so disgusted by this, but more so because everyone is defending  him, saying its impossible to think such a "holy man of god could do such a thing."

This is exactly why i cant stand idiots who believe in gods.
They feel so holier than thou.  They can do no wrong.  Ugh!
I'm tired of people, especially children suffering because of religion. It brings me to tears..

[AnimatedDirt]

I can't help notice that your interpretation of a fictional character's wisdom, in a fairytale book, pointing to a fairytale diety, is the "right" interpretation.

Am I right? Wow.

You're as right as one can be from a superficial knowledge of the teachings of Christ.

If the whole of God's/Jesus' teaching was this or a one-liner, then I would consider you a biblical scholar and believe more as you do.  However in today's age, one doesn't necessarily NEED to study the whole bible to get the point of the WHOLE word of God.  If one doesn't want to study something they don't believe in, then at least look up what the general interpretation is from those that do study this text.  It's one or two g00gle searches away.

[Sweetdeath]

Cliff notes for the bible?

[Stevil]

You're as right as one can be from a superficial knowledge of the teachings of Christ.

If the whole of God's/Jesus' teaching was this or a one-liner, then I would consider you a biblical scholar and believe more as you do.  However in today's age, one doesn't necessarily NEED to study the whole bible to get the point of the WHOLE word of God.  If one doesn't want to study something they don't believe in, then at least look up what the general interpretation is from those that do study this text.  It's one or two g00gle searches away.

The problem as I see it, is that the religious folk, they don't actually read the bible. They don't look at the words spoken by their beloved Jesus, they don't look at the actions of their beloved god.

They cling to assertions.
God created everything
God is Good
God is perfect

If it were asserted that Hitler was god, then the Christians would interpret Hitler's actions as perfect and loving and that the Jews were horrid and evil and deserved to die.
When the God killed everyone in the great flood, that IMHO is worse than what Hitler ever did.
God killed almost everyone, all races, all cultures, all animals, all plants.
When god killed the Egyptian first born males just to prove that He exists, well how is that not as horrid as Saddam killing the Kurds or Hitler killing Jews?

...but then again, as you say, I don't know the context, that God is perfect, good and loving... I am merely getting confused by the words written in the bible, I shouldn't be reading the words, I should be clinging to the unfounded, untested, unmeasurable assertions and just believe....

It seems to me that a strong part of Christianity is that you can just make things up, whatever interpretation that makes you comfortable. Of course it doesn't have to be the correct answer, Just enough of an interpretation to allow you to swallow this big ugly course dry pill that is naturally incompatible with your throat and stomach.

[AnimatedDirt]

The problem as I see it, is that the religious folk, they don't actually read the bible. They don't look at the words spoken by their beloved Jesus, they don't look at the actions of their beloved god.

They cling to assertions.
God created everything
God is Good
God is perfect

I can certainly agree with you on this problem.  I cannot, as Bruce has mentioned the same idea, attempt to defend Christians and their actions in general. 

If it were asserted that Hitler was god, then the Christians would interpret Hitler's actions as perfect and loving and that the Jews were horrid and evil and deserved to die.

It's impossible to assert Hitler as God since Hitler is human and so prone to human failings.
 

When the God killed everyone in the great flood, that IMHO is worse than what Hitler ever did.
God killed almost everyone, all races, all cultures, all animals, all plants.

If one believes in a global flood...which I think more Christaians reject rather than support (I would hope at least).  But first and foremost is that if God is the Creator, then what right do you (or me) have to dictate how the Creator deals with that which He created?  So we see here that when one sets out to define and/or interpret this God (the Abrahamic God), one needs to make the argument in light of the whole and not just part.  The "whole" would include taking into account that this God made everything....and all that follows.

When god killed the Egyptian first born males just to prove that He exists, well how is that not as horrid as Saddam killing the Kurds or Hitler killing Jews?

Again...if he is God and therefore Creator of the cosmos, then there is right and wrong that is dictated by Him.  To go against that which sustains life is to die.  It's logical, not emotional.  If God acted on emotion, He would turn every heart towards Him and no one would ever die.  But that's apparently impossible as God is all-loving AND all-Justice in one.  Another point that would need to be taken into account on interpreting this God.

...but then again, as you say, I don't know the context, that God is perfect, good and loving... I am merely getting confused by the words written in the bible, I shouldn't be reading the words, I should be clinging to the unfounded, untested, unmeasurable assertions and just believe....

Nope.  You miss seeing the forest for the trees.  In order to make a more educated interpretation of this fairytale, at least gather all the information on the fairytale before making a broad-brushed interpretation on it based on selected words therein.

Even having the correct interpretation of God does not mean one must submit to this God.  It's quite possible to know God and still reject Him.  The Satan character proves this possible.

[Sweetdeath]

Your way of thinking is seriously frightening, AD.
The fact that you see nothing wrong with "how god deals witg his creations." ...yikes
So if he were to go on a killing spree, you wouldnt protest, because he is god and therefore perfect? Ooookay....


(serial killers seem to be very similar to your god.)

[AnimatedDirt]

Your way of thinking is seriously frightening, AD.
The fact that you see nothing wrong with "how god deals witg his creations." ...yikes
So if he were to go on a killing spree, you wouldnt protest, because he is god and therefore perfect? Ooookay....


(serial killers seem to be very similar to your god.)

I appreciate your thoughts, but while you may think a "killing spree" is how God acts out for fun, it's totally different from serial killers as we know them to be.

Once again, I can see why one might think this way, but when given the whole and in context, it's not as you see it.  The context being that this God is THE one and only God and made everything.

If this is so, that He created everything...in the most basic thinking then, what right does the created have to pronounce what is "right" vs "wrong" against that which gave it life?

A serial killer, as you are suggesting, is nothing but an equal killing other equals.  God is not our equal IF HE IS CREATOR.  So while there is much more than this simple point, one can see that deaths that we may not understand are not the same thing.

One is certainly given the right to disagree, but don't disagree and give the reasons for it being wrong without understanding what you're talking about first.  We may disagree on capital punishment, but in context certain crimes deserving certain punishments, we can see the "logic" even if we disagree with the punishment.

[Stevil]

It's impossible to assert Hitler as God since Hitler is human and so prone to human failings.

Same could be said for Jesus

[Sweetdeath]

Your way of thinking is seriously frightening, AD.
The fact that you see nothing wrong with "how god deals witg his creations." ...yikes
So if he were to go on a killing spree, you wouldnt protest, because he is god and therefore perfect? Ooookay....


(serial killers seem to be very similar to your god.)

I appreciate your thoughts, but while you may think a "killing spree" is how God acts out for fun, it's totally different from serial killers as we know them to be.

Once again, I can see why one might think this way, but when given the whole and in context, it's not as you see it.  The context being that this God is THE one and only God and made everything.

If this is so, that He created everything...in the most basic thinking then, what right does the created have to pronounce what is "right" vs "wrong" against that which gave it life?

A serial killer, as you are suggesting, is nothing but an equal killing other equals.  God is not our equal IF HE IS CREATOR.  So while there is much more than this simple point, one can see that deaths that we may not understand are not the same thing.

One is certainly given the right to disagree, but don't disagree and give the reasons for it being wrong without understanding what you're talking about first.  We may disagree on capital punishment, but in context certain crimes deserving certain punishments, we can see the "logic" even if we disagree with the punishment.

This is your  version of god. As many other gods and religions exists that have more than  one god.

To me, this is more of your perspective, than your god's.  And that's why it's scary.

[AnimatedDirt]

It's impossible to assert Hitler as God since Hitler is human and so prone to human failings.

Same could be said for Jesus

Mmm...yes, yes you could...if Jesus is just a human.  Hitler, to my knowledge, made no claim to be Creator of this universe and by that authority he was "cleansing" the world of Jews, did he?  Hitler didn't die an innocent man.

This is your  version of god. As many other gods and religions exists that have more than  one god.

To me, this is more of your perspective, than your god's.  And that's why it's scary.

To be clear, it's not my personal perspective in the sense that I simply made it up.  It's my perspective based on the whole of the fairytale book.  My point to Stevil is that one cannot interpret anything based on one line if there is quite a bit more than that one line available to make a more educated interpretation.