A question about prayer

[Sandra Craft]

Mary Oliver, it seems, would have had it that 76 trombones and 110 coronets roll by every time someone said a prayer. And she would be one of the bassoon's having it's big, fat say! In her mind, that was moral living and great faith.

To be fair to Oliver, her point was the usefulness of habits in sustaining faith and possibly morality, not how you should pray:

And if you have no ceremony, no habits, which may be opulent or may be simple but are exact and rigorous and familiar, how can you reach toward the actuality of faith, or even a moral life, except vaguely? 

From what Bruce, DJ, Ami and xSP wrote earlier touching on the sense of connectedness found in a regular habit of prayer, and how it could be useful in sustaining religious belief, I think Oliver may be right about the faith part of it, tho I'm still unclear why she thinks habit is necessary for morality.  From other things she's written, I don't think she's one of those faith = morality types.

[DeterminedJuliet]

From what Bruce, DJ, Ami and xSP wrote earlier touching on the sense of connectedness found in a regular habit of prayer, and how it could be useful in sustaining religious belief, I think Oliver may be right about the faith part of it, tho I'm still unclear why she thinks habit is necessary for morality.  From other things she's written, I don't think she's one of those faith = morality types.

Maybe she just doesn't have a clear definition of "morality?" Maybe she's conflating "warm-fuzzy-feelings" with the term? It's a pretty vague word at the best of times. Maybe it was just a word that appealed to her, from a poet's perspective, because it has emotional connotations, but she didn't examine the "argument" side of things too closely. I've written some things sometimes, only to go back and say "wow. that was a weird word choice." Maybe that's it?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Maybe she just doesn't have a clear definition of "morality?" Maybe she's conflating "warm-fuzzy-feelings" with the term? It's a pretty vague word at the best of times. Maybe it was just a word that appealed to her, from a poet's perspective, because it has emotional connotations, but she didn't examine the "argument" side of things too closely. I've written some things sometimes, only to go back and say "wow. that was a weird word choice." Maybe that's it?

When I first read her quote, I was focused on ceremony as it related to prayer, specifically.  But if she simply means that ceremony (i.e.; well-established habits) are connected to morality, then I can see it. Habits can overcome impulses to do things that are not moral.  If there are no habits as safeguards, one might be more likely to give in to the impulse to do something that is not wise or right.  Maybe.

[Sandra Craft]

When I first read her quote, I was focused on ceremony as it related to prayer, specifically.  But if she simply means that ceremony (i.e.; well-established habits) are connected to morality, then I can see it. Habits can overcome impulses to do things that are not moral.  If there are no habits as safeguards, one might be more likely to give in to the impulse to do something that is not wise or right.  Maybe.

The more I think about it, the more I think this may be what she's getting at (she was very vague about the morality side of it), perhaps that's the whole point of "bending the twig" with kids, creating habits of behavior that eventually turn into habits of thought. 

Still, that depresses me slightly -- every time I turn around humans are being shown as just another collection of instincts vs. trained responses.  Just slightly mind you, I'm generally OK with the whole apes in pants thing.

[Amicale]

Still, that depresses me slightly -- every time I turn around humans are being shown as just another collection of instincts vs. trained responses.  Just slightly mind you, I'm generally OK with the whole apes in pants thing.

I'm not so sure humans are just another collection of instincts vs. trained responses. Many of us are too crazy, impulsive and creative for that. We're always ticking someone off, coming up with something new, and having fun in the craziest ways. Even if you can chalk that up to instinct, that's not SO bad, is it? 

[Sandra Craft]

Even if you can chalk that up to instinct, that's not SO bad, is it? 

No, it's not bad at all -- it's just that old human ego getting in the way of common sense.  And damn it if the ego turns out to be the only thing about us that is special!

[Sweetdeath]

I'd rather have sex every morning than waste my time praying.

[Sandra Craft]

I'd rather have sex every morning than waste my time praying.

Who says you can't do both?

[Amicale]

I'd rather have sex every morning than waste my time praying.

Who says you can't do both?

"Oh God" in bed doesn't constitute praying. 

[Sandra Craft]

I'd rather have sex every morning than waste my time praying.

Who says you can't do both?

"Oh God" in bed doesn't constitute praying. 

It would sure save time tho, if one wanted to.  Personally, I think there's too much time saving going on already.  Besides, for the religiously inclined putting their hands together and saying "please" before and "thank you" after probably does constitue a valid prayer.  And no, SD, this doesn't mean that they can't also say those things to the person who obliged them.

[Sweetdeath]

I'd rather have sex every morning than waste my time praying.

Who says you can't do both?

"Oh God" in bed doesn't constitute praying. 

For the record, i never say that in bed xDD

[Amicale]

I'd rather have sex every morning than waste my time praying.

Who says you can't do both?

"Oh God" in bed doesn't constitute praying. 

It would sure save time tho, if one wanted to.  Personally, I think there's too much time saving going on already.  Besides, for the religiously inclined putting their hands together and saying "please" before and "thank you" after probably does constitue a valid prayer.  And no, SD, this doesn't mean that they can't also say those things to the person who obliged them.

Very true! Although when I was a Christian, I found it VERY disconcerting, believing that God was watching every single thing I was doing and who I was doing it with.  It wouldn't have occurred to me to pray in bed before or after being with someone. My prayers at that time were more focused on "sorry I screwed up again", which does mess with your head, given enough time and enough "indiscretions". 

[Sandra Craft]

You know, I was never much for prayer when I was trying to be religious, maybe that's why I failed -- or maybe not having a religious nature made prayer just not something I thought of doing unless someone else suggested it.  It's kind of a chicken or egg problem.

And as much as I heard about god seeing all things we do (and counting our hair and watching sparrows die) I never seemed to absorb the idea, just like I never absorbed all the things I was told about hell.  Looking back, I'm starting to wonder if all I did during a childhood spent in church was look at the pretty colored windows and listen to the pretty singing voices.

[Sandra Craft]

I just thought of another question about prayer: is it possible to pray without reference to the supernatural or petitioning a deity? 

I've always thought one could, and certainly I do when called upon to pray (which admittedly isn't often), but I've been told these aren't real prayers since a prayer is by definition an act of worship directed at a deity.  So what I'm doing is just chattering about something.

[Gawen]

I just thought of another question about prayer: is it possible to pray without reference to the supernatural or petitioning a deity? 

I've always thought one could, and certainly I do when called upon to pray (which admittedly isn't often), but I've been told these aren't real prayers since a prayer is by definition an act of worship directed at a deity.  So what I'm doing is just chattering about something.

I reckon you answered your question.