God is perfect

[Egor]

I would accept answered prayer as proof.
If we could see a clear and repeatable advantage given to event that were prayed for (to the right god) as opposed to events prayed for (to the wrong god), or events not prayed for, then I would be a believer. No doubt.

Why is it that prayed for events statistically look exactly the same as events that weren't prayed for?

I don't know. You'd have to ask Jesus, because he seemed pretty adamant in the desert when he was talking with Satan that God could not be put to the test. You see, I've had so many answered prayers in my life that I simply can't agree with you. But I realize my answered prayers won't convince you--they can't. You would have to have answered prayers in your own life, but you don't pray. Therefore, like I said, there is no proof you will accept.

[Traveler]

...You know, I'm beginning to think you can call yourself a Christian and simply believe and espouse anything you want....

This is the conclusion I'm coming to. I've got a lot of still-muddled thoughts that I want to explore, but can't seem to make sense enough of them to write them down yet. But the gist is that people seem to believe what they want, and as long as it roughly aligns with a particular religion or congregation within a religion, they call themselves that. I think this is a part of why debates with christians can be so frustrating, because christianity is a moving target. Far better, perhaps, to admit that all of us are walking our own paths. Some paths are closer to others, but a church that claims all its people are on the same exact path is probably deceiving themselves.

Oh BS, it's all you ever talk about. This whole forum is dedicated to it. If you didn't care, if you were a true atheist, you'd just walk away and go live out your life.

You're not an atheist. You're just looking for someone to prove God to you.

I don't understand why, Egor, you seem to think anyone who discusses religion can't be an atheist. I discuss skydiving and I have no wish to throw myself out of a perfectly good airplane. I discuss a variety of political systems, but find most of them completely ass-backwards. I live in a country that's being taken over by fundamentalist bible-literalists. It's truly frightening. I want to understand what I'm up against. Not to mention there are lots of wonderful people here and a good philosophical discussion gets the blood flowing pumping. 

[MadBomr101]

AD and Bruce, you guys may or may not find this an interesting read but I have read though heaps of Kevin Crady's posts and find they make a good read.
I haven't read or studied the bible so am not sure how accurate Kevin's posts could be, however he sounds intimately familiar with the bible.
Satan and the Serpent

Interesting take on it.  On one occasion in the NT, Jesus even referred to Peter, his main disciple, as "satan."  Peter was his adversary on that occasion.  So rather than Satan being a demon with a pitchfork, he can be seen as whatever adversarial forces oppose the will of God.  However, since all such forces ultimately owe their existence to God, they were part of his "good" universe, and are intended to work in such a way so that the end-result desired by God will be accomplished.  "Satan" is part of that ultimate plan. 

Bruce, I just wanted to point out that this is your 665th post.   

[Guardian85]

Atheist don't care about mythical superstitious fantacies.

Oh BS, it's all you ever talk about. This whole forum is dedicated to it. If you didn't care, if you were a true atheist, you'd just walk away and go live out your life.

You're not an atheist. You're just looking for someone to prove God to you.

I have never been a comunist, but I have studied and debated about comunism. I have never been a nazi, but I have studied and had very interresting discussions regarding the rise and fall of Nazi Germany.
I don't get to vote in the american elections, but the effect they have on world politics mean that it is not possible for an informed person such as myself not to have an opinion on them.
Same thing with religion. I do not follow any religion, but religions influence in the lives of bilions, means that it is not something I can simply ignore, despite the fact that I  don't personally believe in any of them.
You don't have to be religious to have an opinion regarding religion anymore then you need to be a concert pianist to have an opinion about Mozart.

[Tank]

Atheist don't care about mythical superstitious fantasies.

Oh BS, it's all you ever talk about. This whole forum is dedicated to it. If you didn't care, if you were a true atheist, you'd just walk away and go live out your life.

You're not an atheist. You're just looking for someone to prove God to you.

I see your point. But it's wrong.

I care about the effects mythical superstitious fantasies have on people and how they influence their behavior. Because their behaviour impacts on my life, e.g. Islamist terrorists activity has curtailed my freedom to wander around and take photos in towns without being stopped and being accused of being a terrorist spy (I kid you not). If theists didn't try to get their own way all the time I wouldn't give a shit what they believed. But they don't do they? Your behaviour is the quintessential example of theistic intolerance and bad manners. Some of the comments on your blog are nothing short of hate speech. You came here to preach, nobody invited you. You spew your hatred all over the internet. You are the sort of person that causes atheists to become active in their criticism of theism. You're not the solution, you're the problem.

Do you see people criticising Buddhism here? No. Mainly because Buddhists keep themselves to themselves and their teachings are mostly harmless. Evangelical Christians and Muslims are really just a complete fucking pain in the arse, for everybody!

I am an atheist, whether you like it or not. But I'm a 6 on the Dawkins scale and I would love somebody to show definitive evidence of the supernatural. It would be the ultimate Nobel prize. So lay out your God hypothesis and then do the research, publish the papers, then get them peer-reviewed and then convince all the other theists (Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists etc) you are right and then, and only then, I'll start paying attention to what you have to say. Until then all I see is personal egotism driving wishful thinking. Sorry.

For decades I didn't involve myself with religion or a-religion. Then I read The God Delusion and joined RDF simply to meet theists and discuss their beliefs. What I found utterly disgusted me. In particular that people who hold world views like you and behave like you actually existed! I could not believe how bad mannered, rude, disingenuous, nasty, mean-spirited and down right bad SOME theists are. It was a revelation to me. In my naivety I though all Christians were basically good people with an odd view of reality. Boy was I wrong!

So now I stand up to people like you who are full of hate and would supress free speach and freedom of expression.

[Stevil]

Western Society is built on Christianity; atheism would at best create a Soviet or North Korean type of society. It is you whom society has to be protected from.

That's a fallacy

[Tank]

Western Society is built on Christianity; atheism would at best create a Soviet or North Korean type of society. It is you whom society has to be protected from.

That's a fallacy

See 'Sweden'.

[Guardian85]

Western Society is built on Christianity; atheism would at best create a Soviet or North Korean type of society. It is you whom society has to be protected from.

That's a fallacy

See 'Sweden'.

Or Norway.
Or Japan.

[Stevil]

I don't know. You'd have to ask Jesus, because he seemed pretty adamant in the desert when he was talking with Satan that God could not be put to the test. You see, I've had so many answered prayers in my life that I simply can't agree with you. But I realize my answered prayers won't convince you--they can't. You would have to have answered prayers in your own life, but you don't pray. Therefore, like I said, there is no proof you will accept.

I wouldn't accept personally answered prayer as proof of anything. How would I know the favourable event wouldn't have happened anyway?

I would need to see statistical results of a large sample, with a control group, repeated by several different facilitators showing clearly consistent results, consistently favorable for the same prayer made to the same god.

[MadBomr101]

If Heaven is full of people like Egor then I claim it is functionally impossible for it to be a paradise.

[Davin]

If Heaven is full of people like Egor then I claim it is functionally impossible for it to be a paradise.

Egor was sent by god, to make sure no atheists convert to Christianity.

[Sweetdeath]

If Heaven is full of people like Egor then I claim it is functionally impossible for it to be a paradise.

Egor was sent by god, to make sure no atheists convert to Christianity.

Haha. All part of the plan.

[AnimatedDirt]

There's a metaphorical account of this in Ezekiel 28, with Satan personified as the King of Tyre.  Verse 17 indicates that his "heart was lifted up because of (his) beauty."  In other words, self-centeredness.  If you want to find an original sin, that's it.  To a degree, self-centeredness or selfishness is Satan, the adversary.

Which makes me wonder; Is Satan a real being in your reckoning or is "he" just a force (like gravity)?

[superfes]

There's a metaphorical account of this in Ezekiel 28, with Satan personified as the King of Tyre.  Verse 17 indicates that his "heart was lifted up because of (his) beauty."  In other words, self-centeredness.  If you want to find an original sin, that's it.  To a degree, self-centeredness or selfishness is Satan, the adversary.

Which makes me wonder; Is Satan a real being in your reckoning or is "he" just a force (like gravity)?

Even though gravity is an "invisible" force we can still detect it...

[Ali]

...You know, I'm beginning to think you can call yourself a Christian and simply believe and espouse anything you want....

This is the conclusion I'm coming to. I've got a lot of still-muddled thoughts that I want to explore, but can't seem to make sense enough of them to write them down yet. But the gist is that people seem to believe what they want, and as long as it roughly aligns with a particular religion or congregation within a religion, they call themselves that. I think this is a part of why debates with christians can be so frustrating, because christianity is a moving target.

This is so true.  I have found this time and again when I am trying to debate AnimatedDirt about Christianity (sorry AD, not to call you out or anything.  Smooches)  I'll say something along the lines of "Well, if Christians believe X then how can they believe Y?" And he'll say "Christians don't all believe that.  I don't."  I'm trying to debate from the version of Christianity that I was brought up in, but unless he is extremely specific about what he believes on any given subject, I'm always getting a swing and a miss because apparently we come from very different traditions of Christianity.  We seem to not have a common reference point to debate from.