Arian's "Atheism" | Split From "My Lord, I'm an Atheist"

[Too Few Lions]

I think you're wrong Arian, but welcome to the forum anyway. I'll look forward to reading your posts. As a slight detour, many biblical scholars would even question if there's a 'God of the Bible'. The earliest parts of the Bible were most probably written by people who worshipped El (the chief Canaanite god), who's a completely different god to Yahweh (the god most associated with the Bible). Yahweh was adopted into the Israelite pantheon at a later date. But either way, Yahweh's a god, no different from Zeus, Baal or Odin. If you think he's 'God' and 'our creator' you're not an atheist, you're a Christian or a Jew.

[arian (Banned)]

LOL A Christian Atheist!

An Atheist is a person whom lacks a belief in any god.

If you don't classify YHWH as a god then I guess you can believe in YHWH and still be an atheist.

Good on ya!

I understand what you're saying, and it is a new look at GOD the great 'I Am', our Creator. Theism is what 'we' know of god and gods, and NOT as GOD (with no name) REVEALS Himself to us by. I have not yet heard any other Christian who understands this either.

As I said, 'Tillich' did a very good job in defining the true concept of GOD through his philosophy, but GOD is not revealed only through philosophy, but also through science, by watching and observing people and our understanding of the world around us. What and why people believe what they believe will reveal a lot about our Creator GOD YHWH as you said (not His name, but a reference to).

The word 'theism' was defined by the pagan-god worshiping people of that time, and was simply accepted in todays pagan version of (watered down) Christianity. Yes todays Christians are Theists, who believe in one or three, or one of them gods.

We cannot 'define God' or liken Him to something or someone 'we' are willing to accept, for we are the created. We are to search 'He who Is', or 'I Am' out, and He will reveal Himself to us. The only limits are our true desire to 'know' Him.

As soon as we define our beliefs as 'atheist/theist', we have closed the door to this knowledge of Truth.

Thanks.

(Edited only to change typo in thread title. OP remains as posted. -- Recusant)

[arian (Banned)]

Welcome, hope you have some fun debating people on religion but I don't think I will be participating.

Hello Crow, and thank you.

You will not participate on religious debates? You have this quote in the bottom of your box:

quote
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions simply because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
- Siddhārtha Gautama

I agree with this whole heartedly, but how do you understand the bolded part my friend?

[Recusant]

I've read your posts so far, arian, and they sound remarkably like preaching to me.

Paul Tillich was a Christian, by the way, and the god he wrote about was the Christian god.

[Crow]

Welcome, hope you have some fun debating people on religion but I don't think I will be participating.

Hello Crow, and thank you.

You will not participate on religious debates? You have this quote in the bottom of your box:

quote
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions simply because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
- Siddhārtha Gautama

I agree with this whole heartedly, but how do you understand the bolded part my friend?

Nothing personal I could tell from your introduction you would be into that area of the forum. As of late talk about religion is starting to bore me senseless so I rarely participate in those discussions at the moment.

[Ali]

Arian, I don't entirely understand your argument.  Are you saying that your God is not a "god"*, but something else, which is what makes you an atheist?


*For the sake of argument, we'll define "god" as some sort of Supreme Being.

[arian (Banned)]

I think you're wrong Arian, but welcome to the forum anyway. I'll look forward to reading your posts. As a slight detour, many biblical scholars would even question if there's a 'God of the Bible'. The earliest parts of the Bible were most probably written by people who worshipped El (the chief Canaanite god), who's a completely different god to Yahweh (the god most associated with the Bible). Yahweh was adopted into the Israelite pantheon at a later date. But either way, Yahweh's a god, no different from Zeus, Baal or Odin. If you think he's 'God' and 'our creator' you're not an atheist, you're a Christian or a Jew.

Hello 'Too Few Lions', and I agree, ... there are too few lions IMO also. 

You actually agreed to my post on the term 'Theism' when you said: "But either way, Yahweh's a god, no different from Zeus, Baal or Odin." because our Creator is actually very different than those gods you mentioned, that is my whole point. Theism includes the 'Trinity gods, Zeus, Baal and Odin, Santa Claus', all made-up gods, but not 'I Am' as defined by the Prophets and Jesus in the Bible.

Saying 'I am an atheist', does not exclude us from learning and seeking the truth, or keeping some books and burning others, listening to some people and hating others, ... or does it? (referring to the person who left this forum, 'Lying For Jesus' ... I believe his name was) that's the 'Constantine Churches' job and those Christian religions who still follow in their footsteps. Have we not 'evolved' beyond such caveman like behaviors? Why, didn't believing in the Big-bang evolution theory, (modern science, quantum physics, rational thought, education) teach us anything?

If theist is believing in god or gods, then don't you think 'atheists' should know which god or gods they 'don't believe' in? Placing Bible-God into Theism does not make 'I Am' GOD to be one amongst them, no matter how the theistic/atheistic definition define Him. The Bible (Word of God) is the one who defines Bible-God, our Creator, don't you agree?

Shouldn't we all (man kind in general) identify GOD first before we choose to believe or not to believe in Him, or just throw Him amongst one of 'those theistic gods'?

[Gawen]

Could be interesting. Waiting for something substantial before I post.

[Stevil]

I propose naming this god "SAM"

By the way, are we now to capitalise all the letters, not just the first one?

[arian (Banned)]

I've read your posts so far, arian, and they sound remarkably like preaching to me.

Paul Tillich was a Christian, by the way.

Yes, Tillich was a Christian, but not understood by Christians because his philosophy did not coincide with todays version Christianity, especially their version of 'GOD'. If I say I do not believe in the Trinity Gods, I too am labeled as a 'heretic'.

The 'meaning' Christ-like was changed into a name 'Christian' as defined by Constantine, which in its reality opposed those few that served and walked according to Jesus teachings. "You cannot serve two masters, ... you will cling to the one and despise the other" and Constantine is well documented in trying to serve both, the gods found in the term theism, and Christianity's One True God "I Am".

Sorry if my posts sound like preaching, rather than simply debating and hopefully 'teaching'. I have learned a great deal from 'atheists', they seem to have more of an open mind to new ideas, ... well not all of them of course, just as not ALL Christians have a closed mind either.

Oh, ... and I agree that defining 'atheism' does belong on the 'Religion' section,

thank you.

[Too Few Lions]

You actually agreed to my post on the term 'Theism' when you said: "But either way, Yahweh's a god, no different from Zeus, Baal or Odin." because our Creator is actually very different than those gods you mentioned, that is my whole point. Theism includes the 'Trinity gods, Zeus, Baal and Odin, Santa Claus', all made-up gods, but not 'I Am' as defined by the Prophets and Jesus in the Bible.

Saying 'I am an atheist', does not exclude us from learning and seeking the truth, or keeping some books and burning others, listening to some people and hating others, ... or does it? (referring to the person who left this forum, 'Lying For Jesus' ... I believe his name was) that's the 'Constantine Churches' job and those Christian religions who still follow in their footsteps. Have we not 'evolved' beyond such caveman like behaviors? Why, didn't believing in the Big-bang evolution theory, (modern science, quantum physics, rational thought, education) teach us anything?

If theist is believing in god or gods, then don't you think 'atheists' should know which god or gods they 'don't believe' in? Placing Bible-God into Theism does not make 'I Am' GOD to be one amongst them, no matter how the theistic/atheistic definition define Him. The Bible (Word of God) is the one who defines Bible-God, our Creator, don't you agree?

Shouldn't we all (man kind in general) identify GOD first before we choose to believe or not to believe in Him, or just throw Him amongst one of 'those theistic gods'?

like it or not, the god referred to by the prophets and Jesus in the Bible is Yahweh. You may want to pretend it's a different god, but I don't think that's historically accurate. Admittedly the concept of 'God' or Yahweh in early Christianity and Hellenistic Judaism was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy, and markedly different from the all-too-human deity of early Israelite religion, but the idea of god was still exactly the same as that found in non-Christian religions at the time. You can call him 'I am', 'the Creator' or whatever else you fancy, it's still Yahweh, with a little bit of El, Baal and 'God' of the philosophers thrown in for good measure.

If you believe that the god of the Bible is 'our creator', do you believe in the Biblical creation myth and fables like Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden? what parts of the Bible do you believe refer to your god and which to Yahweh?

I see no more reason to separate the Biblical god(s) out from all the other deities than I do Zeus or Baal or Odin. That's just your personal choice based on your religious beliefs, I see no logic or reason behind it.

This just seems like an extension of the age old Christian practice of claiming their god is true and somehow different from all other deities, only you're also extending it to apparently include the god worshipped by more mainstream Christians too.

I like the colour purple, but to me your views are like me saying that purple isn't really a colour, because 'colour' is a word used to refer to all the other colours, but in reality they're not really colours, as purple is the only true colour, somehow different from all the others. But I can't use that name to describe it as it's used to describe all the false colours.

The truth is that purple is still a colour no matter how much I try and claim it isn't. I'll happily toss the biblical god away on the scrap heap with Odin and Baal and a thousand other nameless gods. You're not going to be able to convince me he's anything other than what he is, a 3000 year old western semitic deity, who was given a face lift 2000 years ago.

[Recusant]

Yes, Tillich was a Christian, but not understood by Christians because his philosophy did not coincide with todays version Christianity, especially their version of 'GOD'.

So, you are the first person in history who understands Tillich? All those Christians who think they understand him are mistaken, because you say so?

If I say I do not believe in the Trinity Gods, I too am labeled as a 'heretic'.

There are certain varieties of Christian who relish the chance to throw around the word "heretic." Still, you aren't the only Christian who believes in the "Bible-God" but does not believe in the Trinitarian version, and just because some self-righteous Christians label you as a heretic, does not mean that you aren't a Christian. You do sincerely believe that Jesus is God, right?

The 'meaning' Christ-like was changed into a name 'Christian' as defined by Constantine, which in its reality opposed those few that served and walked according to Jesus teachings. "You cannot serve two masters, ... you will cling to the one and despise the other" and Constantine is well documented in trying to serve both, the gods found in the term theism, and Christianity's One True God "I Am".

Interesting version of history. Would you mind:

1. Citing a source for the supposed original meaning of "Christian." (It's just that when the word "Χριστιανός" is used in the Bible, it seems to be pretty clear that it's intended to mean "follower of Christ," or "one who belongs/adheres to Christ.")

2. Clarifying who are "those few that served and walked according to Jesus teachings" during the time of Constantine, who were opposed by Constantine?

Seeing as Constantine didn't bother to actually get baptized until he was dying, I think that one might legitimately question whether he was serving anything or anyone but his self-interest at any time in his life. That would be pure speculation though, just as your version of Constantine's inner life is.

Sorry if my posts sound like preaching, rather than simply debating and hopefully 'teaching'. I have learned a great deal from 'atheists', they seem to have more of an open mind to new ideas, ... well not all of them of course, just as not ALL Christians have a closed mind either.

Oh, ... and I agree that defining 'atheism' does belong on the 'Religion' section,

thank you.

Teaching involves (among other things) conveying information and providing resources for learning. So far you have been putting forward your opinion and asserting various things while providing zilch in the way of resources (citations from reputable sources) to support your assertions. We've learned about your opinions, and your fatuous definition of atheism (which seems to consist of "arian's brand of Christianity"), but beyond that, we might as well have been watching "American Idol," for all we've learned that has any value.

[arian (Banned)]

Could be interesting. Waiting for something substantial before I post.

I did not get an e-mail notice that someone answered my post or not. How do I set the notice?

Hello Gawen, and a pleasure to meet you.

Well, ... help me out here, what would you consider 'substantial'?

Would the fact that the 'Christianity' that we know of today does NOT worship, nor even acknowledge the One True God of the Bible be considered 'substantial'?

Have you read or studied the Bible, that would help our discussion.

Thank you friend

[arian (Banned)]

Arian, I don't entirely understand your argument.  Are you saying that your God is not a "god"*, but something else, which is what makes you an atheist?


*For the sake of argument, we'll define "god" as some sort of Supreme Being.

Hello Ali

Well, we really have to start from scratch, because we have been indoctrinated by the ruling worldly Church for so long (from about 325 AD) that when we say 'God' we imagine some 'Deity in a supernatural realm' am I right? Or as you said, a "Supreme Being".

God is not a 'Being', but the source of 'being'.

It is really difficult to explain, because of our indoctrinations, which has influenced every dictionary and encyclopedias interpretation of God. The 'reformation' has refocused what Christ-like should really mean, but eventually the people once again named those ideas too, Lutheran, Calvin and so on.

Just like the word 'Christian', it is understood as one amongst all those other religions, right? Well, it is. Christian has become a name, not a 'walk'.

Jesus asked us to follow HIM, to be like Him, to act like Him and to walk in His footsteps... to be 'Christ-like', not to be called 'Christian'.


To know GOD, (I capitalize so we can visualize a seperate GOD from the God and gods we have burnt in our minds through indoctrination) is to LOVE our fellow man.

Now isn't that kind of foreign to our understanding? I mean, if we want to know someone on this earth, we want to get to know 'them' and show we love 'them' the person, not love a bunch of my neighbors, ... right?

But what if that person is far away somewhere where we cannot see him/her, and tells us that "I will know if you love me or not by how much love you show others. Do unto others as you would have them do to you, love others as you love yourself, ... and I will be watching, and will know if you love me or not by those actions you do unto others."

If we become Catholic, or Mormon, or Baptist, or Lutheran, ... we cannot be a part of that Church Jesus is the Head of. We cannot serve different Kings and be a member of one kingdom, we would be called traitors, am I right?

A Start.

[Ali]

I still don't understand what makes your version of god (GOD) different from everyone else's.  But I do like the idea of loving others as a form of worship, if I were to worship (which I don't.)  Sounds peaceful.