Theists, how do you explain natural evil and bad design?

[Stevil]

I really don't think you understand the frustration.  Say one has a passion for The Lord of the Rings and someone else is simply making fun of the movie because it is fiction and says things that are not true of the story.  What if they continually say Gandalf was green or poke fun at the "design" of Hobbit feet...?  I don't know if there is a reason given for Hobbit feet to be the way they are, but what if there was a reason given?  To be shown to be wrong about the story, one must accept to take the story by what the story and/or the whole of the theme is.  Otherwise all the person doing that is making fun of it is spouting things that are untrue of the story and coming to conclusions about those that have passion for that story that are false.

I probably did not convey that thought well...*sigh*.

The thing is, from the atheist's point of view, we are continually bombarded by theists, who tell us that we are going to hell, that we must repent, that we will be judged by their god (this, you personally did to me today). Some also put their Christian morals into law and hence impact my life, and people around me.

I have not been bombarded by Lord of the rings fanatics that tell me I must believe in Gandalf, that there are elves in the woods and they have pointy ears. No-one suggests that Gollumn died for me and that I should accept his death as repentance for my sins.

The issues the typical Atheist has is normally superficial.

I wouldn't classify the god killing almost everyone including the animals and plants as being superficial. Or setting bears onto small children, or killing first born Egyptians, or the beloved character Moses telling his men to rape women, or the god suggesting Abraham sacrifice his son.
These are not superficial. If a person was found guilty in a human court of doing these things they would either go to prison for a very long time or they would get the death penalty. You must put this into context with reality AD. Atheists live in the real world, not this fictional world you talk of.

I didn't expect you to suspend critical thought, but rather don't jump to conclusions without understanding the whole of it.  Once that kind of understanding is gained, THEN feel free to pass judgment as you see fit.  I, nor any Christian, would find fault in you for that.

I think the only way I could get an understanding that you would be happy with is for me to read the bible, go to church every Sunday, go to Bible study, go on Christian holiday camps, give up the requirement for proof, accept 100% faith and proclaim myself to be a Christian.
It is too late for that, I am a grown adult, I have a habit of questioning things and asking for proof. I never simply do as I am told. I will never treat gay people as if they are sinners, I will never tell a dying person that they must not commit euthanasia, I will never tell an expecting mother that she must not have an abortion. I am adamantly opposed to Christian morals and any morals for that matter. People ought to think for themselves.

[Too Few Lions]

The issues the typical Atheist has is normally superficial and not the point of why the story(ies) are there.  The typical Atheist  refuses to delve deep into the story on the whole to see why or why not AND THEN pass judgment with regard to the players therein.  At least get the point(s) right.  Then criticize them within their correct context.

To be fair, the typical Christian is also guilty of this. Many Christians interpret parts of the Bible literally that clearly don't represent historical events (Garden of Eden, Flood, Exodus etc). From an atheist's point of view, as someone who doesn't believe things like virgin births, miracles and resurrections happen in real life, we could arguably extend that to cover all Christians.

Plus as far as looking at the Bible in its correct context, I've met very very few Christians who have ever read Plato, or know much about ancient Near Eastern religion, or Hellenistic or Roman philosophy or religion. These are the contexts in which the Bible was created and should be looked at.

[AnimatedDirt]

The thing is, from the atheist's point of view, we are continually bombarded by theists, who tell us that we are going to hell, that we must repent, that we will be judged by their god (this, you personally did to me today).

If you're talking about this post, It was hardly me saying you were going to hell...and further more, in context of your words I was replying to, it is relevant.  You opened the door, so to speak, for that answer.  I also qualified my reply by making sure to add, "...if confronted...if he exists."  In no way was that me "bombarding" you.  We are in the Religion section and you are here at your own freewill, yes?  Am I forcing you into this conversation?  I hope not.

Some also put their Christian morals into law and hence impact my life, and people around me.

I think you'd agree that some "Christian" morals are good.  Which would you suggest we remove?  All?

I have not been bombarded by Lord of the rings fanatics that tell me I must believe in Gandalf, that there are elves in the woods and they have pointy ears. No-one suggests that Gollumn died for me and that I should accept his death as repentance for my sins.

Now you know this is not the point.  To simply suggest this is to detract from the real point and poke more fun at those who hold Christian beliefs.  The point being that there are people that put effort into knowing a story inside and out regardless if it is a fictional story.

I wouldn't classify the god killing almost everyone including the animals and plants as being superficial. Or setting bears onto small children, or killing first born Egyptians, or the beloved character Moses telling his men to rape women, or the god suggesting Abraham sacrifice his son.
These are not superficial. If a person was found guilty in a human court of doing these things they would either go to prison for a very long time or they would get the death penalty. You must put this into context with reality AD. Atheists live in the real world, not this fictional world you talk of.

It is superficial in that you cannot even state why it might be so according to the whole story.  THAT's why it's superficial knowledge.

I think the only way I could get an understanding that you would be happy with is for me to read the bible, go to church every Sunday, go to Bible study, go on Christian holiday camps, give up the requirement for proof, accept 100% faith and proclaim myself to be a Christian.

Now you're being rediculous.  If I was able to find a website with all kinds of info on the deep things, back stories, in-depth analysis of Lord of the Rings...I'm sure there are similar websites for things related to Christianity.

It is too late for that, I am a grown adult, I have a habit of questioning things and asking for proof. I never simply do as I am told. I will never treat gay people as if they are sinners, I will never tell a dying person that they must not commit euthanasia, I will never tell an expecting mother that she must not have an abortion. I am adamantly opposed to Christian morals and any morals for that matter. People ought to think for themselves.

I suppose you're assuming/accusing me of that which you don't do...because certainaly every Christian is opposite to your highly educated thinking.  Thanks for that.

[Stevil]

If you're talking about this post, It was hardly me saying you were going to hell...and further more, in context of your words I was replying to, it is relevant.  You opened the door, so to speak, for that answer.  I also qualified my reply by making sure to add, "...if confronted...if he exists."  In no way was that me "bombarding" you.  We are in the Religion section and you are here at your own freewill, yes?  Am I forcing you into this conversation?  I hope not.

Yes I did open the door and you gladly took it by stating something that was already obvious.
Unfortunatly rather than clarify your statement that I used to logically conclude that I am without sin, you instead invoked Pascal's Wager, which had nothing to do with what we were discussing. Pascal's Wager is a dishonest tool used to convince the weak minded to accept Christianity without proof.
However what I am saying is that I would be less likely to pick holes in the book if Christians didn't make out that this fictional book applies to me.
...and you have done this on many occasions even when you put an "if" disclaimer at the front of what you say.

I think you'd agree that some "Christian" morals are good.  Which would you suggest we remove?  All?

No morals are ever good, I am currently of the opinion that holding onto a moral code leads to suspended critical thought, oppression of people and conflict within society. If it were possible for me to remove the morality words and concepts from the English language then I would gladly do so. I despise any teachings of morals. I would far rather people be taught how to apply critical thinking, how to foresee the consequences to their own actions, how to understand social behaviour and why normal people in society sometimes become violent in response to certain actions.

Now you know this is not the point.  To simply suggest this is to detract from the real point and poke more fun at those who hold Christian beliefs.  The point being that there are people that put effort into knowing a story inside and out regardless if it is a fictional story.

The point that you obviously didn't get is that I would be determined to poke holes and belittle Lord of the Rings if people were to suggest it were the truth and that I will be judged for not believing and not being a Tolkienite.

It is superficial in that you cannot even state why it might be so according to the whole story.  THAT's why it's superficial knowledge.

I am not interested in excuses, if anyone commits mass murder or kills little children merely for verbally teasing an adult then this person/thing needs to face serious consequences. I do not accept that the fictional YHWH character is all loving and perfect, this is a baseless assertion.

Now you're being rediculous.  If I was able to find a website with all kinds of info on the deep things, back stories, in-depth analysis of Lord of the Rings...I'm sure there are similar websites for things related to Christianity.

The problem is that there is no evidence or proof at all substantiating the anecdotal stories of the bible.
As I have said before, if people try to make out that it is true and tell me it applies to me then I will find holes in it and ridicule it, otherwise I would simply ignore it.

It is too late for that, I am a grown adult, I have a habit of questioning things and asking for proof. I never simply do as I am told. I will never treat gay people as if they are sinners, I will never tell a dying person that they must not commit euthanasia, I will never tell an expecting mother that she must not have an abortion. I am adamantly opposed to Christian morals and any morals for that matter. People ought to think for themselves.

I suppose you're assuming/accusing me of that which you don't do...because certainaly every Christian is opposite to your highly educated thinking.  Thanks for that.

Interesting response especially because I never stated anything with regards to education, or even my relative intelligence for that matter.
One of the biggest aspects of Christianity is convincing people to adhere to Christian morality. It is commonly accepted that Christians are against gay sex, euthanasia and abortion. It is common that Christian groups attempt to influence law on these matters. I am not referring to you but Christianity in general.

[Stevil]

AD, I don't even know why you care what I think about your Bible and belief.
How does this impact you? From your perspective I clearly don't understand the bible nor am I offering any valid arguments.

I am not even interested in reading the book.

I am not telling you that you ought not to believe. I am not criticising you in your beliefs, I am merely criticising my perception of Christianity in defense of Christian influence on law and Christian evangelism in society.

[AnimatedDirt]

Yes I did open the door and you gladly took it by stating something that was already obvious.
Unfortunatly rather than clarify your statement that I used to logically conclude that I am without sin, you instead invoked Pascal's Wager, which had nothing to do with what we were discussing. Pascal's Wager is a dishonest tool used to convince the weak minded to accept Christianity without proof.

The logically, I didn't "invoke" Pascal's Wager here as I have already mentioned I'm not trying to convince you of anything other than you really have no basis, but superficial knowledge, to poke holes.

However what I am saying is that I would be less likely to pick holes in the book if Christians didn't make out that this fictional book applies to me.
...and you have done this on many occasions even when you put an "if" disclaimer at the front of what you say.

If you know it doesn't, why does it bother you so much?  Better yet, why do you continue to do something that brings so much tension on yourself...discussing Christian beliefs?  You believe what you do apparently because you claim to have a higher understanding, better critical thinking...and yet you allow this notion of "it applies to me" bother you? 

No morals are ever good, I am currently of the opinion that holding onto a moral code leads to suspended critical thought, oppression of people and conflict within society. If it were possible for me to remove the morality words and concepts from the English language then I would gladly do so. I despise any teachings of morals. I would far rather people be taught how to apply critical thinking, how to foresee the consequences to their own actions, how to understand social behaviour and why normal people in society sometimes become violent in response to certain actions.

Ok.  Just don't get upset when someone elses "morals" conflict with yours.

The point that you obviously didn't get is that I would be determined to poke holes and belittle Lord of the Rings if people were to suggest it were the truth and that I will be judged for not believing and not being a Tolkienite.

Yet we find ourselves in this old debate still...wonder.

I am not interested in excuses, if anyone commits mass murder or kills little children merely for verbally teasing an adult then this person/thing needs to face serious consequences. I do not accept that the fictional YHWH character is all loving and perfect, this is a baseless assertion.

Excuses to you...but then we've established that your knowledge of the bible is just superficial.

The problem is that there is no evidence or proof at all substantiating the anecdotal stories of the bible.
As I have said before, if people try to make out that it is true and tell me it applies to me then I will find holes in it and ridicule it, otherwise I would simply ignore it.

Am I trying to prove the bible to you here?  Seems like either you're ignoring what I'm saying or simply jumping to conclusions.

It is too late for that, I am a grown adult, I have a habit of questioning things and asking for proof. I never simply do as I am told. I will never treat gay people as if they are sinners, I will never tell a dying person that they must not commit euthanasia, I will never tell an expecting mother that she must not have an abortion. I am adamantly opposed to Christian morals and any morals for that matter. People ought to think for themselves.

I suppose you're assuming/accusing me of that which you don't do...because certainaly every Christian is opposite to your highly educated thinking.  Thanks for that.

Interesting response especially because I never stated anything with regards to education, or even my relative intelligence for that matter.

I beg to differ according to your words.

One of the biggest aspects of Christianity is convincing people to adhere to Christian morality.

Now THAT is proof of superficial knowledge and simply a lie.  That is not even one of the biggest aspects.  This shows your misunderstanding of BASIC Christian ideals.

It is commonly accepted that Christians are against gay sex, euthanasia and abortion. It is common that Christian groups attempt to influence law on these matters. I am not referring to you but Christianity in general.

This is about as close to real knowledge about Christianity that you have.  I wouldn't disagree with this statement, however I would disagree with the Christians that promote these as a dogmatic stance.

[Guardian85]

Some also put their Christian morals into law and hence impact my life, and people around me.

I think you'd agree that some "Christian" morals are good.  Which would you suggest we remove?  All?

Yes, there are some moral teachings in the god-damn bible that are good, but those are usually the moral codes that any other belief system or philosophy also encompass. Things like "don't kill indiscriminately" and "don't steal other peoples stuff".
So are those scelect moral points good because they are in the bible, or did the human authors of the biblical texts add them because they were good?

This still does not excuse the bibles condoning of slavery, rape, genocide, and subjugation of women.

[AnimatedDirt]

Yes, there are some moral teachings in the god-damn bible that are good, but those are usually the moral codes that any other belief system or philosophy also encompass. Things like "don't kill indiscriminately" and "don't steal other peoples stuff".
So are those scelect moral points good because they are in the bible, or did the human authors of the biblical texts add them because they were good?

Either way, they are good, no?

This still does not excuse the bibles condoning of slavery, rape, genocide, and subjugation of women.

Now seriously.  Let's logically think about this a moment.  Let's use our critical thinking...well, not me because apparently I can't think critically.  Bring it to the logical conclusion(s).  If it is as you claim it is, how would the followers of this book LOGICALLY act socially with regard to these you cite?

[Asmodean]

I think pretty much every moral teaching is, in addition to being subjective in its value, situational.

[Guardian85]

It is because the peddlers of biblical teachings cherry-pick the nice parts for the sermon, and most people just assume that the bible is the way it is being sold to them. Quite often when I speak with christians about this, they will vehemently deny that there are rules in the bible that says "stone disobedient children" or that Moses commanded 3000 of his followers put to the sword. Or that Joshua burnt Jericho to the ground. Or that Jeptha burned his daughter as an offering.

People act socially because we are evolved social creatures. The instinct to co-exist socially is an evolved trait. That is where the foundation of human morals comes from. That is why you are able to pick the parts of the bible you like, while trying to justify your belief in the bible despite that it is also full of very, very, very immoral stories.

[AnimatedDirt]

It is because the peddlers of biblical teachings cherry-pick the nice parts for the sermon, and most people just assume that the bible is the way it is being sold to them. Quite often when I speak with christians about this, they will vehemently deny that there are rules in the bible that says "stone disobedient children" or that Moses commanded 3000 of his followers put to the sword. Or that Joshua burnt Jericho to the ground. Or that Jeptha burned his daughter as an offering.

People act socially because we are evolved social creatures. The instinct to co-exist socially is an evolved trait. That is where the foundation of human morals comes from. That is why you are able to pick the parts of the bible you like, while trying to justify your belief in the bible despite that it is also full of very, very, very immoral stories.

So anything written with any "immoral stories" can, using your logic here, be placed as equals with the bible?  Is this logical?

[Guardian85]

It is very logical if you treat the bible as equally fictitious as other storybooks, whish is one of the preqisites for being a non-believer.
Unless you are willing to use special reasoning to give the bible a free pass from objective truth value, it has no more status then any other work of fiction.

[AnimatedDirt]

It is very logical if you treat the bible as equally fictitious as other storybooks, whish is one of the preqisites for being a non-believer.
Unless you are willing to use special reasoning to give the bible a free pass from objective truth value, it has no more status then any other work of fiction.

So lessons cannot be learned from stories if they contain anything immoral...

[Asmodean]

It is very logical if you treat the bible as equally fictitious as other storybooks, whish is one of the preqisites for being a non-believer.
Unless you are willing to use special reasoning to give the bible a free pass from objective truth value, it has no more status then any other work of fiction.

So lessons cannot be learned from stories if they contain anything immoral...

Nah... In general, lessons can only be learned well from experience.

[AnimatedDirt]

Nah... In general, lessons can only be learned well from experience.

Which does not invalidate that lessons can be learned from stories.