The Bible Summed Up In One Short Sentence

[Too Few Lions]

I always feel a bit sorry for the Jews. You Christians stole their god and holy book, made up a son for their god, then tell them that they're wrong. Then Islam came along 600 years later and did something similar!

I'm not a Christian. Remember? In my intro? I have never and will never belong to any organized religion. If you ain't baptized you ain't a Christian. I ain't Christian.

OK, so you believe that 'the Bible is about the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus' but you're not a Christian....hmmmm....

Can you see how someone might mistake you for a Christian as you appear to believe pretty much the same basic thing as them? I've never met a non-Christian before who believes the above statement about the Bible and Jesus. How do your beliefs differ from those of people I'd call Christians? Particularly as there are and have been many different types of Christians who have believed many different things. I would define a Christian as anyone who believes Jesus Christ is their saviour, do you fall into that definition? Out of interest, what are your basic religious beliefs? We know you believe in the Flood as a historical reality, how old do you believe the earth / universe is?

[Earthling]

Do you know what an Atheist is?
A person who lacks a belief in gods.

That is exactly how I defined it and was called a pig without a song.

You are an Atheist with regards to the Greek gods, the Maori gods, the Hindi gods...

Not exactly. I'm like the writers of the Bible. Henotheistic. They worship one god above all others and yet accept those others as gods. Here is a list of Gods from the Bible. I can give scriptural references upon request. Satan, Moses, The Judges of Israel, Jesus, Baal, Ashtoreth, Tammuz, Molech, The Gods of Luck Casper and . . . I forget the other's name. Jehovah, objects made of metal, stone, and wood, and ones own belly. A bunch of others I can't recall offhand.

A quote from Paul - 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 " For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords,"  there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him."

To the writers of the Bible the word god was a title without distinction, meaning anything or anyone who was mighty or venerated by anyone. The Bible would have no problem with the idea that Eric Clapton was a God, not as much as Eric himself did, in fact. The word lord indicates someone with authority, usually granted by someone else. Landlord, and Lord Jesus Christ.

[Earthling]

OK, so you believe that 'the Bible is about the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus' but you're not a Christian....hmmmm....

Can you see how someone might mistake you for a Christian as you appear to believe pretty much the same basic thing as them? I've never met a non-Christian before who believes the above statement about the Bible and Jesus. How do your beliefs differ from those of people I'd call Christians? Particularly as there are and have been many different types of Christians who have believed many different things. What are your basic religious beliefs? We know you believe in the Flood as a historical reality, how old do you believe the Earth is?

I understand the possibility of error. No problem there.

What I believe is the Bible. I have no choice in doing so because look as I might I can't find a reason not to. I don't believe in it because I was raised that way, or because I'm afraid of death (been there done that no big deal) or even because I live forever in paradise earth. I'm not a likely candidate for that. I believe it because after very close examination I have no intellectually honest recourse but to do so and the second I find a reason for not believing I will proclaim it from the rooftops like you ain't never seen. Until then it has proven itself true.

As for other Christians the majority of their teachings are pagan in origin and not in line with the teachings of the Bible. Take away the immortal soul, the trinity, the cross, the rapture, hell, that all good people go to heaven and heaven is everything good you can imagine, the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god, Easter and Christmas . . . all of the pagan / apostate Christian teachings and what do you have left?

[Too Few Lions]

Not exactly. I'm like the writers of the Bible. Henotheistic. They worship one god above all others and yet accept those others as gods. Here is a list of Gods from the Bible. I can give scriptural references upon request. Satan, Moses, The Judges of Israel, Jesus, Baal, Ashtoreth, Tammuz, Molech, The Gods of Luck Casper and . . . I forget the other's name. Jehovah, objects made of metal, stone, and wood, and ones own belly. A bunch of others I can't recall offhand.

A quote from Paul - 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 " For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords,"  there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him."

I thought you were trying to cut out what you see as pagan influences and corruptions in Christianity. Nothing could be more 'pagan' than henotheism, it's exactly what the Greeks and Romans believed! One god father of all, then lots of other deities as manifestations of him.

Julian II, the last pagan Roman emperor wrote,

'The fashioner [of the universe] is both the common father and lord of all that exists, while the gods of nations and the gods who protect cities have been delegated specific responsibilities by him.'

[Too Few Lions]

As for other Christians the majority of their teachings are pagan in origin and not in line with the teachings of the Bible. Take away the immortal soul, the trinity, the cross, the rapture, hell, that all good people go to heaven and heaven is everything good you can imagine, the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god, Easter and Christmas . . . all of the pagan / apostate Christian teachings and what do you have left?

I totally agree, I just think that most of the stories and teachings in the Bible are also derived from earlier 'pagan' sources. I do find your position far more interesting than a standard Christians though, and I much prefer henotheism to monotheism as a belief system, it's inherently much more tolerant. What parts of the Bible do you see as 'uncorrupted' by pagan influence? I'm intrigued. The New Testament was written in Greek, surely that makes the book itself a pagan corruption. Personally I see Christianity as a result of the Hellenising of Judaism, and wholly a product of the 'pagan' influences you seem so opposed to.

[Stevil]

You are an Atheist with regards to the Greek gods, the Maori gods, the Hindi gods...

Not exactly. I'm like the writers of the Bible. Henotheistic. They worship one god above all others and yet accept those others as gods. Here is a list of Gods from the Bible. I can give scriptural references upon request. Satan, Moses, The Judges of Israel, Jesus, Baal, Ashtoreth, Tammuz, Molech, The Gods of Luck Casper and . . . I forget the other's name. Jehovah, objects made of metal, stone, and wood, and ones own belly. A bunch of others I can't recall offhand.

So you simply believe in everything you are told that you don't have proof to the contrary on.
Critical thought is seen as a negative to you?

[Velma]

In the likely event that I should go missing I want to impart upon you a simple summation of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. It can be summed up in this way, and is important to be able to grasp it's meaning.

The Bible is about the vindication of Jehovah God's name through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

That's it. If you are interested and if I am allowed to continue here, where I think there is a potential for some good conversation, I would be happy to discuss it with you.

I'd like to know your thoughts, Earthling, on why it was such a sacrifice.  Thirty years on earth out of eternity.  A death that while unpleasant, wasn't nearly as prolonged or bad as the deaths of countless others.  Even if, as some theologies teach, he was cut off from his father during the hours he was 'dead,' it was only a few hours out of eternity.  All-in-all, it adds up to a bad weekend, but hardly a 'sacrifice' when he was fully restored to his position in heaven.

[Earthling]

So you simply believe in everything you are told that you don't have proof to the contrary on.
Critical thought is seen as a negative to you?

No in answer to both questions. I never believe what I am told, I'm always skeptical, I demand evidence in making a rational decision. Either I'm informed or I am admittedly ignorant or incapable of understanding. I suck at math and grammar (if you haven't noticed). I have very little interest in science because I see it as speculation often abused in the guise of absolute knowledge. Empirical evidence, peer review all of that stuff is a good idea, and I think that science is important so long as it doesn't, in the manner which I describe, become religious in nature.

Critical thought and fairness with an open mind is my way of going about things. I fuck up. I learn from my mistakes.

[Earthling]

I'd like to know your thoughts, Earthling, on why it was such a sacrifice.  Thirty years on earth out of eternity.  A death that while unpleasant, wasn't nearly as prolonged or bad as the deaths of countless others.  Even if, as some theologies teach, he was cut off from his father during the hours he was 'dead,' it was only a few hours out of eternity.  All-in-all, it adds up to a bad weekend, but hardly a 'sacrifice' when he was fully restored to his position in heaven.

The price was perfect blood without sin which he paid in full. The point wasn't how much he suffered.

[Earthling]

I thought you were trying to cut out what you see as pagan influences and corruptions in Christianity. Nothing could be more 'pagan' than henotheism, it's exactly what the Greeks and Romans believed! One god father of all, then lots of other deities as manifestations of him.

Julian II, the last pagan Roman emperor wrote,

'The fashioner [of the universe] is both the common father and lord of all that exists, while the gods of nations and the gods who protect cities have been delegated specific responsibilities by him.'

It kinda makes the entire monotheism vs. polytheism seem, like the issue of Christian morality, somewhat pointless, doesn't it?

The reason henotheism seems strange to you in the context of Judaism and Christianity is that you don't fully appreciate the simple meaning of god, Hebrew el and its variations and the Greek theos. It doesn't imply worship in and of itself, it acknowledges the perception of might or explains a specific veneration.

The Greeks and others felt the same way because god is simply that which is attributed might and or venerated.

[Earthling]

I totally agree, I just think that most of the stories and teachings in the Bible are also derived from earlier 'pagan' sources.

I don't agree with that. The teachings of apostate Christianity and Judaism are derived from earlier pagan sources, not the teachings of the Bible. The immortal soul, trinity, cross, hell, Christmas, Easter, omnipresent god, 144 hour creation and much later the rapture. All unscriptural and pagan in origin later adopted by apostate Christianity beginning in the middle of the 4th century C.E. with Constantine. Of course, the Bible is pretty honest and open about the faithlessness of Israel and the apostle Paul warned of the apostasy beginning in early Christianity.

I do find your position far more interesting than a standard Christians though, and I much prefer henotheism to monotheism as a belief system, it's inherently much more tolerant.

Well, I don't know about that. It is just a question of understanding the simple concept of gods.

What parts of the Bible do you see as 'uncorrupted' by pagan influence? I'm intrigued.

We have to use caution here because, the pagan influence isn't necessarily a bad thing. For example, wedding rings, tombstones, wind chimes are pagan in origin. The months in the Jewish calendar were pagan. Often the Hebrew would take on a pagan name. Daniel and his companions, for example. This was especially true of people in Jesus time. Jesus, Latin from the Greek Iesous from the Hebrew Jeshua or Jehoshua. Saul / Paul, Peter / Simon etc.

Baptism was pagan in origin but only used as a public declaration.

The New Testament was written in Greek, surely that makes the book itself a pagan corruption. Personally I see Christianity as a result of the Hellenising of Judaism, and wholly a product of the 'pagan' influences you seem so opposed to.

Matthew was first written in Hebrew, it doesn't matter what language the books were written in. The pagan influence only becomes an issue if it is presented in opposition to the original text. All of the pagan adoptions of apostate Christendom I mentioned above, for example, are contrary to the teachings of the Bible and pretty well historically documented as such.

If you want to get into a discussion of the significance of some really poor scholarship presented by higher criticism and commonly embraced by skeptics of the Bible you are in for some unpleasant surprises. I see you and others here hinting at those sort of influences, like regarding who wrote the Bible and when, why and what sort of influences supposedly went into those writings.

Higher criticism is really some pretty lame ass stuff.

[Tank]

You are funny, Earthling, very funny.

These good conversations you talk about, do all parties in the conversation have the opinion that these are good conversations?

I seem to recall a couple of them expressing interest upon my arrival which was shaky at best, thanks to an eagerness for what? Good conversation or bloodsport?

Why don't you introduce a topic in which I can address any real challenge to the Bible other than the opinion and hearsay.  We can move on at least until I'm gone and stop wasting time with this drama?

In your thread I challenge anyone here to present evidence that the Bible is historically, scientifically, factually, prophetically, realistically or any other way bullshit. Start the thread. Put your "real money" or your "fake money" where your big mouth is.

Idiot sons a bitches. Stop wasting my fucking time.

On the basis of the highlighted line I have suspended Earthling's account for 7 days. - Tank

[OldGit]

The trouble is there is only so much I can do with these types of answers, which seem more emotional than rational to me.

The reason I answered so frivolously and disrespectfully is that I refuse to indulge this nonsense.  Religion is in my view absolutely not worthy of respect.  We need to drive it out of our culture and humour is one of our most powerful weapons.  Yes, I'm rude, but for a well-considered reason.

[Tank]

The trouble is there is only so much I can do with these types of answers, which seem more emotional than rational to me.

The reason I answered so frivolously and disrespectfully is that I refuse to indulge this nonsense.  Religion is in my view absolutely not worthy of respect.  We need to drive it out of our culture and humour is one of our most powerful weapons.  Yes, I'm rude, but for a well-considered reason.

Amen to that! Doh!

[Gawen]

Well...that was fun!!!