Pope John Paul on the fast track to sainthood.

[hismikeness]

Seems appropriate to link this. Nice timing Sophus!

Well, I think that in most cases, what an outsider feels as sexual abuse is actually very different than what the Priest is meaning to do.

I don't know man, sexual abuse is in the eye of the abused. I don't think the priests, the church or anyone gets to decide what sexual abuse really is, but I think most people know it when they hear about it.

I was an altar boy (and was frickin good at it too!) and I came across my share of touchy priests. Didn't bother me... I was also bigger than them. In no way am I claiming every case went down like this, but I can imagine a priest wielding his power over a youngster and even invoking God's wrath if the child didn't succumb.

In the words of the song Razorblade by Blue October:

In a way, I failed religion
I spit the wine from mouth to cup
And I reached for something more than just your God
Uncle, you spared not your children
And while your praying hands are up
There's no forgiveness for you! You sick fuck!!

It is you that I remember in their bedroom
It is you that took their first away from them
It is you they set their standards to
You wounded them for life
You were a preacher and suppose to be above men

People (innocent children, even) look up to these men for guidance about how to ensure survival of their eternal souls. Sure, a bad batch ruined it for a lot of really great priests, but the church, the employer, if you will, didn't do much to curtail it. It's pretty disgusting, and I find apologists thereof to be the same.

[PapistItalian16]

Seems appropriate to link this. Nice timing Sophus!

Well, I think that in most cases, what an outsider feels as sexual abuse is actually very different than what the Priest is meaning to do.

I don't know man, sexual abuse is in the eye of the abused. I don't think the priests, the church or anyone gets to decide what sexual abuse really is, but I think most people know it when they hear about it.

I was an altar boy (and was frickin good at it too!) and I came across my share of touchy priests. Didn't bother me... I was also bigger than them. In no way am I claiming every case went down like this, but I can imagine a priest wielding his power over a youngster and even invoking God's wrath if the child didn't succumb.

In the words of the song Razorblade by Blue October:

In a way, I failed religion
I spit the wine from mouth to cup
And I reached for something more than just your God
Uncle, you spared not your children
And while your praying hands are up
There's no forgiveness for you! You sick fuck!!

It is you that I remember in their bedroom
It is you that took their first away from them
It is you they set their standards to
You wounded them for life
You were a preacher and suppose to be above men

People (innocent children, even) look up to these men for guidance about how to ensure survival of their eternal souls. Sure, a bad batch ruined it for a lot of really great priests, but the church, the employer, if you will, didn't do much to curtail it. It's pretty disgusting, and I find apologists thereof to be the same.

They did plenty to curtail it. They put said priests in therapy. OBVIOUSLY therapy didnt work. Now if I was to ask "what would you do?" you guys would obviously say "punish them!" well I was wrong in my earlier post about not being able to kick out priests. The Church can, and they've done it before. They have removed them of their status and title as Priests in the Catholic Church. So then, the "Priest" moves on to another denomination. And then their is nothing the Church can do about it.

Since you guys are all about "expert opinions" I figured I'd leave you with a couple.

Phil Jenkins, Episcopalian Professor of Humanities at Pennsylvania University has stated:

"[his] research of cases over the past 20 years indicates no evidence whatever that Catholic or other celibate clergy are any more likely to be involved in misconduct or abuse than clergy of any other denomination—or indeed, than non-clergy."

What about the rising amount of sexual abuse in public schools?

Charol Shakeshaft a Professor at Hofstra University whom the Department of Education comissioned to review the availible liturature on said cases, then publish her findings said:

"... the physical sexual abuse of students in public schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by Catholic priests"

And an interesting article on what the Catholic Church is doing about all the sexual scandals:
http://catholicleague.org/release.php?id=2154

[hismikeness]

They did plenty to curtail it. They put said priests in therapy. OBVIOUSLY therapy didnt work.

Nope, but I bet it did wonders for the molested kids. Sheesh. Therapy... [/eye roll]

What about the rising amount of sexual abuse in public schools?

What about it? Hardly the same thing. Sure, in both cases abusing an authority is at play, but with the priests, there's two authorities at play (probably).

Charol Shakeshaft a Professor at Hofstra University whom the Department of Education comissioned to review the availible liturature on said cases, then publish her findings said:

"... the physical sexual abuse of students in public schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by Catholic priests"

Startling numbers, certainly. Data is pulled from reported cases and ALL public officials (including other teachers) are mandatory reporters. I don't think that's the case in the church, is it? I don't remember hearing anything about that in my upbringing, at least.
???

Besides, how many people back then trusted their children to be alone with a priest versus being alone with a teacher? Bet that's changed a bit. There's sickos everywhere, including teachers.



I don't know what the right answer is in a situation like this. If only there was a book of moral teachings, handed down from on high with a list of rules to follow that would spell all this out. Oh, wait, this rule wasn't in there. My issue isn't with the sicko priests as much as with the corrupt organization that is the church handling it the way they did- which wasn't right and wasn't wrong, but it was way more wrong than right.

[PapistItalian16]

Okay, I think at this point we are "beating a dead horse". The fact that the Church hasnt really done anything about the sitution is really starting to upset me, and I'm beginning to side with you guys a little bit. I think that such people that break the sacredness of Holy Orders and abuse it's power should be punished by our law system.

I guess it just makes me wish to strive to be a better Christian, a better Catholic, and a better human being. And hopefully someday, when I' am Ordained into the Priesthood, I will be a better Priest, and people will finally have something good to say about the Church.

Sorry for Hi-Jacking your thread Magic Pudding.

[Tank]

I recall Richard Dawkins saying he was fed up with hearing about Catholic priests being child abusers as they are statistically less likely to abuse than other groups; I think he compared them to teachers. And obviously whatever a person does and exploits to abuse others is one abuse is one too many.

However, I think the reason that the priests get such a tough rap is because they should be perfect examples of moral behaviour, like a police officer. Once a person puts on the trapping of authority society holds them to a higher behavioural code. Thus when they fall from grace they do it from a very high place and they land very heavily indeed.

The press also always like to highlight hypocritical behaviour, because we like to read about it. Thus when uncle Fred fiddles with little Timmy its an issue, but not a public issue of public trust being broken as it would be for a priest.

The behaviour of the Catholic church was wrong because it placed itself above the secular laws of the countries in which it operated. That is totally unacceptable for any organisation to do. The church appears to be attempting to address the issue, but as long as the church attempts to hold a position of moral authority and exemplary ethical behaviour it will be held to a higher standard than mere mortals.

[The Magic Pudding]

Sorry for Hi-Jacking your thread Magic Pudding.

I've no problems with it, didn't seem too far off topic, anyway wandering often takes you interesting places.

[Stevil]

I think that such people that break the sacredness of Holy Orders and abuse it's power should be punished by our law system.

The law isn't so much concerned with Holy Orders and abuse of powers.

But when the law has been broken, especially the physical abuse of children, then this is most definately a legal issue. It is a criminal offence to obstruct justice. If the pope were the leader of a non religious corporate company which did this then he would be facing some serious criminal charges himself.

[Whitney]

If the pope were the leader of a non religious corporate company which did this then he would be facing some serious criminal charges himself.

Yup, and the only reason we haven't seen prosecution like this occur is that if the US were to try to bring the Pope or other involved higher ups in for trial then the US would be seen as the bad guy at best and by certain countries might even consider it a cause for war even if we are currently allies.  People feel very strongly about the old guy in the funny hat; even many protestant believers have tended to consider him holier than your average bear.

[The Magic Pudding]

If the pope were the leader of a non religious corporate company which did this then he would be facing some serious criminal charges himself.

Yup, and the only reason we haven't seen prosecution like this occur is that if the US were to try to bring the Pope or other involved higher ups in for trial then the US would be seen as the bad guy at best and by certain countries might even consider it a cause for war even if we are currently allies.  People feel very strongly about the old guy in the funny hat; even many protestant believers have tended to consider him holier than your average bear.

I'm not sure how many countries would heed the popes call to go to war these days.  I suppose Belesconi might if offered absolution for his sins.

It can look dodgy when the US enthusiastically chases villains but refuses to accept international authority.

US and ICC Relations

US opposition to the Court has raised the price of Statute ratification to states that accept assistance from the United States. US legislation confronts ICC member states with the difficult decision of whether to accede to US demands to accept bilateral agreements that immunize US citizens from ICC jurisdiction or to stand on principle and pay an economic price. Paradoxically, however, U.S. opposition may also have helped build the Court's credibility. The early opposition by the US undermined the image of the ICC as an extension of Neocolonial influence or a tool of Western domination. Meanwhile, the U.S. antipathy appears to be softening.

http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=7485.msg114211;topicseen#msg114211

The practice of outgoing presidents endowing immunity on the worthy strikes me as odd, and then there's that Kissinger chap.

[Ihateyoumike]

That's not enough. Castration and/or lots of jail time should be added to that. And loads of public humiliation. Oh, and excommunication from the church.

But, once a priest, always a priest. Right?

I guess your god will give them a pass no matter how many childrens' lives they ruin, but I'm the unforgivable one for flat out admitting that I deny your church's holy spirit.

Makes perfect sense to me.

Well hello, Mr. Angry...

"Not 100 people in the United States hate the Roman Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly think the Roman Catholic Church is." -- Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

My point in posting this is to state that the Catholic Church is not all made up of child molestors.

From: http://www.religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex6.htm

Unfortunately, precise data on abuse is not available. Data is largely based on experts' opinions. But perhaps the following might be helpful:

In another essay, we describe various estimates of the percentage of Roman Catholic priests who engage in sexual activities with persons under the age of 18. They range from 0.12% to 6%. In the absence of precise data, a value of 3% might be a reasonable guess. 

If the 3% value is accurate, then it is important to remember that 97% of priests are not sexually abusive to children and adults.

In the same essay, investigators have estimated that between 90% and 98% of the abusers victimize post-pubertal adolescents, while the rest assault pre-pubertal children. A value of 95% might be a reasonable guess.

The percentage of males in the general population who sexually abuse young children is unknown. Some estimates are in the range of 1% 

If those data are accurate then: About 0.15% of priests sexually abuse young children.
This is perhaps 1/8 the rate of men generally.
Priests have a much lower rate of abusive pedophilia than does the general population of men.

This same article also has some interesting points about this whole topic.

I don't care much if it was one priest or all of them. As many others have pointed out, it is an egregious misuse of power. And it could be argued that holding the power over someone's "eternal life" in your hands gives you more power than most. And whether it's abuse in church, public schools, youth rehabilitation, hospitals, or anywhere else... it needs to not go unpunished and sure as hell needs to not be covered up.

This is where my beef with the catholic church and it's dead pope comes in. They covered it up.

And my grandfather is a catholic priest, and though misguided imho, one of the most honorable men I've ever met. I think he represents the good side of the catholic church. I don't believe he'd ever be involved in abuse, or the cover up of abuse. But you can bet your sweet ass that if he ever was involved in either of those I would see him as just as vile as I see the ones who have been involved... such as the dead pope.

-Mr. Angry

[Whitney]

I think it is appropriate to feel angry about anything or anyone that allows child molestation to occur.

Two teachers were just arrested here in DFW under charges of having sex with teenage students...one turned himself in and the other resigned before proper evidence for charges could be collected.  If the church just turned in their bad guys like the schools do theirs then no one would fault the church itself (aside from the religious implications of a messenger of god doing something ungodly).

[fester30]

I never liked the idea of sainthood when I was a Christian.  The church says that only god can judge, yet naming someone a saint is basically humans deciding that a person was holy enough to skip purgatory and go straight to heaven.