Why give "God" the credit...

[Stevil]

it reminds me of Skinner's superstitious pidgeons: A pidgeon was conditioned in a machine that would release treats at random intervals by falsely associating some of it's own actions with what made the treat appear. The pidgeons actions had no effect on the machine. When the machine was shut down and treats (a response) were denied, the conditioned pidgeon developed superstitious behavior, as in ritualized actions that it believed caused an effect on the indifferent machine.

This is very interesting, it made me think from a different perspective with regards to theism and atheism.
Maybe the theists refuse to give up, refuse to accept that there are things that are out of their control. Having a belief in an all powerful god whom can love you and be on your side. One that you can appeal to through prayer and being a "good" person. Maybe this is a way of manipulating the world in one's favour. The better the person you are the more appealing your requests are to your god, the more luck, opportunities or blessings you will receive. This may give the appearance that you are in control even of the things that seem to be outside your influence. God can do anything. When good things happen you can justify it as a blessing from god because you have earned it as a deserving and loyal follower. When bad things happen, it is simply because you can't expect god to be at your beck and call. Maybe it is part of god's bigger plan for you, a lesson you must go through to acheive the results that god wants.

Atheists on the other hand accept that which is out of their control and would deem favourable events as simply chance given the laws of probability. If you have read Martin Seligman's book then maybe you could perceive this as pessimistic behaviour.

Obviously both theists and atheists would deem themselves as being realists.

I've never really thought of theistic world view of being optimistic before, but this has given me food for thought.

[xSilverPhinx]

In those cases it has little to do with any theological aspects (the problem of evil and suffering, etc), but more about trying to control the uncontrollable through negotiation (praying).

The problem of evil? It's rather easy too explain. "Evil and suffering" is neccesary.
If we just open your eyes, it's very rational (I know you people love the word 'rational')

The things that cause suffering such as pain are important biological heritages, those exist for a reason and are necessary. We give the result that is suffering a meaning, but I don't know what you mean by 'suffering is necessary' and in what sense exactly. As for evil, it gets a little more complicated with that...

I myself don't see cancer as an evil. It's a natural occurence: a cell breaks, starts to multiply uncontrollably, spreads and starts to multiply uncontrollably and starts to compromise the whole body and therefore a person's life. Is it necessary? No, it just happens.

The girl posted a request that people pray for her grandfather who has cancer and added that he's a good person (she reached a conclusion that he was undeserving of suffering because he is a good person). I wrote that to show that within the context of an omnibenevolent and omnipotent god who for some reason won't or can't answer a prayer to perform a good deed (heal the grandfather or stop his suffering), that the nature of their gods is the last thing on a person's mind who's in that situation such as februrarystars described. Her request is sort of at odds with the widely accepted view (assuming she's among them) that Christians hold which is that their god is an omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient god. The belief sort of temporarily breaks down, is further compartmentalised (those three characteristics existing in one being are already incompatible and mutually exclusive) or pushed to secondary plane to handle that situation.

One could say that if a person dies after all those prayers, and thus ends their suffering, that the prayers have been answered in a different way...but usually people don't pray to an omnibenevolent god for somebody's death, calling it 'good' wish. Is an omnibenevolent god being good to the distressed person praying? People who believe that their god is all good will tend to not want to interpret a death as an evil outcome, they'll resort to 'god works in mysterious ways' before doing that. In fact, there isn't any room for evil in a reality where god is all good, is everywhere and knows everything, including the 'evils' that go on. But 'evils' do go on, and christians fail miserably at trying to explain why. Free will to choose the 'right path' is incompatible with an omiscient and omnibenevolent god (who wants people to go to heaven and not suffer in hell but already knows whether they will or not).  

I don't know about your beliefs precisley (and even among christians these things differ, though they usually do compartmentalise and don't see the thing as a whole and why it is incompatible).

(It's late - or should I say early - and so if this is a wall of incoherent text, I'll look into it later)

[iSok]

In those cases it has little to do with any theological aspects (the problem of evil and suffering, etc), but more about trying to control the uncontrollable through negotiation (praying).

The problem of evil? It's rather easy too explain. "Evil and suffering" is neccesary.
If we just open your eyes, it's very rational (I know you people love the word 'rational')

The things that cause suffering such as pain are important biological heritages, those exist for a reason and are necessary. We give the result that is suffering a meaning, but I don't know what you mean by 'suffering is necessary' and in what sense exactly. As for evil, it gets a little more complicated with that...

I myself don't see cancer as an evil. It's a natural occurence: a cell breaks, starts to multiply uncontrollably, spreads and starts to multiply uncontrollably and starts to compromise the whole body and therefore a person's life. Is it necessary? No, it just happens.

The girl posted a request that people pray for her grandfather who has cancer and added that he's a good person (she reached a conclusion that he was undeserving of suffering because he is a good person). I wrote that to show that within the context of an omnibenevolent and omnipotent god who for some reason won't or can't answer a prayer to perform a good deed (heal the grandfather or stop his suffering), that the nature of their gods is the last thing on a person's mind who's in that situation such as februrarystars described. Her request is sort of at odds with the widely accepted view (assuming she's among them) that Christians hold which is that their god is an omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient god. The belief sort of temporarily breaks down, is further compartmentalised (those three characteristics existing in one being are already incompatible and mutually exclusive) or pushed to secondary plane to handle that situation.

One could say that if a person dies after all those prayers, and thus ends their suffering, that the prayers have been answered in a different way...but usually people don't pray to an omnibenevolent god for somebody's death, calling it 'good' wish. Is an omnibenevolent god being good to the distressed person praying? People who believe that their god is all good will tend to not want to interpret a death as an evil outcome, they'll resort to 'god works in mysterious ways' before doing that. In fact, there isn't any room for evil in a reality where god is all good, is everywhere and knows everything, including the 'evils' that go on. But 'evils' do go on, and christians fail miserably at trying to explain why. Free will to choose the 'right path' is incompatible with an omiscient and omnibenevolent god (who wants people to go to heaven and not suffer in hell but already knows whether they will or not).  

I don't know about your beliefs precisley (and even among christians these things differ, though they usually do compartmentalise and don't see the thing as a whole and why it is incompatible).

(It's late - or should I say early - and so if this is a wall of incoherent text, I'll look into it later)

Thank you for your reply, it's quite clear.

Evil is quite hard to define. 'Good' and 'Evil' are not absolutes within our reality.
For example cancer, I do see it as evil. The absence of knowledge, the mysteries of life..all are a form of evil.
Just like ignorance, ego, selfish behaviour, violence, illegal wars are also a form of evil.
I think the world is shrouded in evil, and good only exists within our hearts.
I hope I can explain this all, also why the girl wanted someone to pray for her grandfather.

But first let me ask this question for the people here:

What makes you happy? What is the source of your happiness? I hope some of you can define it, it's quite hard I understand.
(I hope you don't say: The new Philips Ambilight 3d 54 inch LED flatscreen)

[fester30]

What makes you happy? What is the source of your happiness? I hope some of you can define it, it's quite hard I understand.
(I hope you don't say: The new Philips Ambilight 3d 54 inch LED flatscreen)

I agree with Edmund Dantes in Alexandre Dumas' The Count of Monte Cristo, "There is neither happiness nor misery in the world; there is only the comparison of one state with another, nothing more. He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness."

In my case, I haven't exactly had the greatest grief, so I don't feel I'm capable of the greatest heights of happiness.  However, I do believe that I'm more often as happy as I'm capable of than in any other state.  I spend most of my time in my own greatest happiness.  This comes from understanding of psychology.  I know that I choose what emotional state I am.  I choose how to react to people.  If I get angry, it's my own fault.  I don't have to react to a situation by feeling anger.  That's my choice.  I find it's more productive to react to situations that would otherwise make me angry by instead finding a way to move forward into a solution for my problem.  Then it becomes a challenge.  Since I like challenges, it becomes fun.  Of course, these methods are aided by the fact that I do not have any chemical imbalances that require medication to stabilize.  Some people are incapable of using the "Johnny in his f-ing bubble" method without medication.

[februarystars]

I think the world is shrouded in evil, and good only exists within our hearts.

It's interesting that you say this, because I've always felt like the exact opposite is true. The world always seemed inherently good, or neutral at worst. Of all the things in the world, living and non-living, the only ones I've seen to be capable of "evil" are humans.

What makes you happy? What is the source of your happiness? I hope some of you can define it, it's quite hard I understand.
(I hope you don't say: The new Philips Ambilight 3d 54 inch LED flatscreen)

Honestly, the ONLY thing that makes me truly happy is the company of close friends and family. I struggle with, I don't really want to say it's "depression" per se, but a sort of melancholy pretty regularly. Having that contact with the people I'm close to will make me snap out of it in an instant. People always ask me why I don't plan on moving away after college, and I always answer that I'd rather be close to my family than get a job at some impressive far-away place.

[iSok]

I agree with Edmund Dantes in Alexandre Dumas' The Count of Monte Cristo, "There is neither happiness nor misery in the world; there is only the comparison of one state with another, nothing more. He who has felt the deepest grief is best able to experience supreme happiness."

That is interesting, so we can experience only great happiness by experiencing severe suffering?
I have to agree though for a large part.

It's interesting that you say this, because I've always felt like the exact opposite is true. The world always seemed inherently good, or neutral at worst. Of all the things in the world, living and non-living, the only ones I've seen to be capable of "evil" are humans.

I always like to think and view the world from the Islamic perspective, so far it has answered a lot of my questions, I am not yet dissapointed to say the least.
Many people would condemn me for this narrow-minded view, but I see it as a broad view. I'm just convinced of God's existence. This forum helped me to go from 2 on the Dawkins scale
to point 1 (I don't believe, I know). So by looking this way, I hope I can understand God's Way a bit more...

I think evil is very hard to define, same counts for good.
But I came to this point, on how to define evil.

Evil is that which we want to overcome.
So it's not neccesarily mainstream topics like: wars, murder and rape.
But also: Cancer and other diseases, environmental pollution, lack of knowledge, undesired behaviour (ego, arrogance, anger), doubt..etc..

These are all types of things we want too overcome, many of us know for example that we have a lot of anger inside of us.
Deep inside we know  that we have this problem and we want to change it but it's hard.

I think Good comes from our intention to overcome these problems.
Good does not neccesarily mean the result but the intention to overcome evil.
I also think that Good can be measured if we take a look at the context. |
Take the example of the girl who wanted people to pray for her father.
She wanted her father to overcome the evil inside him (cancer).
Her intention is important, because Good lies in intention, the result doesn't matter.

[Ulver]

So a friend of mine just posted on FaceBook:

I need everyone's help!!! Please pray for my grandfather. He has cancer in his back and another spot. He is one of the best people in the world so please pray!!! Thanks!

And while I feel really bad for her that her family is going through this, I can't help but think about the message in her plea. Her grandfather is such a good person, but has has developed cancer. Did God give him cancer? If he had won the lottery, it would have been a reward from God for being a good person. They would have thanked God for the gift.

But her grandfather didn't win the lottery. He got cancer. So the way to remedy this is to get as many people as possible to ask God to cure him. Does God not take into account that the grandfather was a good man whose good deeds are worthy of a healthy body? Or does this man's life balance on the results of a sort of American Idol type popularity contest where whichever sick person gets the most call-ins gets to stick around for another week? If he had nobody to pray for him, would his prospects be any different?

If he succumbs to the cancer, will they say it was just his time to go and that God had bigger plans than we mortals can comprehend? If he overcomes it, will they thank the doctors who have dedicated their lives to saving others' lives? Or will they just give all the credit to God, since after all, the grandfather was a good person?

I have been thinking about this very issue. My professor (an mid-60's Irish Catholic) tried to present "evidence" that dying patients who are prayed for survive longer than those who aren't, even if they don't know the prayer is happening. He didn't have any studies or anything, just said this happens... with his usual bias, so I don't mean to suggest I took it seriously, but this, along with people recently begging for prayer for Japan just got me thinking some obvious things.

Why do humans have to REMIND god (through praying) that people don't deserve suffering? What?? I suppose this is just more Calvinball and to discuss it insults mine and everyone's intelligence, but I really do try to tackle these logistical questions openly.

I suppose many theists would say that god is testing us (maybe???) and if we are humble and pray, god may make a miracle happen. Then it just goes back to god being a prick who tortures to teach lessons, at best (at worst just being a sadist or completely narcissistic) which is far from perfect, and the whole argument goes up in holy smoke  

[iSok]

So a friend of mine just posted on FaceBook:

I need everyone's help!!! Please pray for my grandfather. He has cancer in his back and another spot. He is one of the best people in the world so please pray!!! Thanks!

And while I feel really bad for her that her family is going through this, I can't help but think about the message in her plea. Her grandfather is such a good person, but has has developed cancer. Did God give him cancer? If he had won the lottery, it would have been a reward from God for being a good person. They would have thanked God for the gift.

But her grandfather didn't win the lottery. He got cancer. So the way to remedy this is to get as many people as possible to ask God to cure him. Does God not take into account that the grandfather was a good man whose good deeds are worthy of a healthy body? Or does this man's life balance on the results of a sort of American Idol type popularity contest where whichever sick person gets the most call-ins gets to stick around for another week? If he had nobody to pray for him, would his prospects be any different?

If he succumbs to the cancer, will they say it was just his time to go and that God had bigger plans than we mortals can comprehend? If he overcomes it, will they thank the doctors who have dedicated their lives to saving others' lives? Or will they just give all the credit to God, since after all, the grandfather was a good person?

I have been thinking about this very issue. My professor (an mid-60's Irish Catholic) tried to present "evidence" that dying patients who are prayed for survive longer than those who aren't, even if they don't know the prayer is happening. He didn't have any studies or anything, just said this happens... with his usual bias, so I don't mean to suggest I took it seriously, but this, along with people recently begging for prayer for Japan just got me thinking some obvious things.

Why do humans have to REMIND god (through praying) that people don't deserve suffering? What?? I suppose this is just more Calvinball and to discuss it insults mine and everyone's intelligence, but I really do try to tackle these logistical questions openly.

I suppose many theists would say that god is testing us (maybe???) and if we are humble and pray, god may make a miracle happen. Then it just goes back to god being a prick who tortures to teach lessons, at best (at worst just being a sadist or completely narcissistic) which is far from perfect, and the whole argument goes up in holy smoke  

While we are on the topic.
American atheist (a surgeon) asks God for help, his daughter was about to die.

Watch from 4 min and 00 sec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J5_VETw ... ure=relmfu

[Ulver]

I don't have sound at work, but I assume this is something of a traumatic conversion?

[Davin]

Just like the "Atheist converts to Christiantity" videos: significant other (newborn daughter in this case), is surely going to die, so the person (a guy in this case), who is a respected professional (a medical doctor for the eyes in this case), who is a skeptical atheist, randomly decides to pray just in case there is a god, the dying significant other miracously recovers, conveniently without any signs there was even a problem in the first place. Then spends time researching religion and converts to a religion (because iSok is posting it, I'm sure you can guess which religion it is), and writes books as if the money gained from selling the books doesn't even factor into the whole thing.

[Ulver]

Just like the "Atheist converts to Christiantity" videos: significant other (newborn daughter in this case), is surely going to die, so the person (a guy in this case), who is a respected professional (a medical doctor for the eyes in this case), who is a skeptical atheist, randomly decides to pray just in case there is a god, the dying significant other miracously recovers, conveniently without any signs there was even a problem in the first place. Then spends time researching religion and converts to a religion (because iSok is posting it, I'm sure you can guess which religion it is), and writes books as if the money gained from selling the books doesn't even factor into the whole thing.

[Davin]

:pop:
Mel Gibson directed this, too?

This is the sequel, it's called "The Passion of the Muhammad", and covers only the few days before Muhammad rides a horse into the sky.

Surprisingly, the story seems to copy the Rainbow Brite live action movie:
[youtube:2dkswopl]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofRF5vpFpl0[/youtube:2dkswopl]

[Ulver]

This is the sequel, it's called "The Passion of the Muhammad", and covers only the few days before Muhammad rides a horse into the sky.

Surprisingly, the story seems to copy the Rainbow Brite live action movie:
[youtube:hx744vv4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofRF5vpFpl0[/youtube:hx744vv4]

)

I wonder, though, if you believe god did intervene for this man, why so many prayers go unanswered?

[fester30]

lol I see, thank you for the clarification!
(I love The Soup)

I guess, in seriousness, to iSok I would say I believe fear certainly changes the structure of one's logic, but atheists are so unlikely to think the way this man has, that I'm prone to thinking these cases are bs. (See there we go again )

I wonder, though, if you believe god did intervene for this man, why so many prayers go unanswered?

They all get answered.  It's just that sometimes the answer is no, and sometimes the answer is yes.  That the answer happens to be yes about the same amount of times as random chance is not a simple coincidence but a miracle of God's camouflage, else you wouldn't have the awesome luxury of only having faith to go by if you wanted to believe in God.

[Ulver]

They all get answered.  It's just that sometimes the answer is no, and sometimes the answer is yes.  That the answer happens to be yes about the same amount of times as random chance is not a simple coincidence but a miracle of God's camouflage, else you wouldn't have the awesome luxury of only having faith to go by if you wanted to believe in God.

Bah, and here I thought some of god's greatest gifts were unanswered prayers.