Why give "God" the credit...

[Chandler M Bing]

But you might typecast me again. The evidence suggests that that's what you do. Is there any evidence that will convince me that you won't do it again?

Hey, I was just trying to figure out what you believe, since I apparently had it way wrong. If you don't want to share, that's fine.

If you're present on this board, then you obviously want a challenge to your beliefs. No one can challenge you if you don't share, and if you do share, but avoid thinking about the challenges, then your presence is moot.

I don't give god credit only for good things that happen.

[Croaker]

But you might typecast me again. The evidence suggests that that's what you do. Is there any evidence that will convince me that you won't do it again?

Hey, I was just trying to figure out what you believe, since I apparently had it way wrong. If you don't want to share, that's fine.

If you're present on this board, then you obviously want a challenge to your beliefs. No one can challenge you if you don't share, and if you do share, but avoid thinking about the challenges, then your presence is moot.

I don't give god credit only for good things that happen.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this would mean that you credit him for the bad things as well then, right? Just trying to understand here.

[Chandler M Bing]

The word "credit" is misleading. It implies that I like something. But certainly yes, everything that happens is down to god.

[Croaker]

The word "credit" is misleading. It implies that I like something. But certainly yes, everything that happens is down to god.

Does this imply that you do not have free will then? Since everything that happens is because of god, are you merely living out the existence predetermined for you? Or is he a reactive god, more akin to a random function, that takes in data (how we react to his actions) and then outputs randomness via new events?

[Chandler M Bing]

The word "credit" is misleading. It implies that I like something. But certainly yes, everything that happens is down to god.

Does this imply that you do not have free will then? Since everything that happens is because of god, are you merely living out the existence predetermined for you? Or is he a reactive god, more akin to a random function, that takes in data (how we react to his actions) and then outputs randomness via new events?

We have free will.

[Croaker]

The word "credit" is misleading. It implies that I like something. But certainly yes, everything that happens is down to god.

Does this imply that you do not have free will then? Since everything that happens is because of god, are you merely living out the existence predetermined for you? Or is he a reactive god, more akin to a random function, that takes in data (how we react to his actions) and then outputs randomness via new events?

We have free will.

Does god allow the 'things you don't like' to happen to better improve you, to give you an opportunity to mature? Or does he do it because, by his definition, he has no choice but to do so?

[Chandler M Bing]

The former.

[Khalliqa]

...for your hard work? I understand that you believe in something higher than yourself, and I'm not about to take that away from you, but you've worked too hard to give the credit to something that, to my personal understanding, probably doesn't exist. Even if he does exist, I don't think he did anything that great anyway. As an Atheist, the way I see it is like this.

If God is so great, why let this happen anyway? I have had a few responses to this.

1) He gave us free will. OK, wonderful, we have free will, unless our free will is tossed aside by someone else for their enjoyment.

2) It was a test. Any being that would test a living human with this kind of pain, I do not want to exist anyway.

3) He does not give you anything you can't handle. Sorry, I wake up every morning feeling I can't handle this. The fact that I do, I feel, says more about me personally, than anything else.

I live next to a church, I see news everyday about religion's fight to remove my rights, or to keep me from attaining my rights because I happen to be gay. I have been told by church officials that I need to forgive my brother. Fuck. That. Shit. No, I am an Atheist, I am Anti-Theist, and while I may not be entirely happy with my life as I see it, I am damned happy with the result of my struggles, and God gets no credit in that.

Thanks for listening to my little rant.

IMO..  The better reason given by theist for giving god credit is that it keeps them humble..  They are constantly in awe and reminded of the lack of control and understanding they have of this world..  and remind themselves of this by recognizing the infinite and vast amount of probablistic permutations that have to take place for a thing to work in their favor... and they hope for the best when it does not..  They ascribe purpose and meaning to such things which necessitates and organizer or "mind" to control it..  

I agree with them to some extent..  just not with the latter part..

In other words ...  emotionally there have been moments where I have recognized the vast amount of happenings in the world and am humbled by something going my way that I really wanted, desired or needed..  recognizing that things could have gone differently in spite of my interactions with others...  I am left feeling thankful... grateful in some way..  and perhaps because of the human need to anthropomorphize everything lol

[Croaker]

...for your hard work? I understand that you believe in something higher than yourself, and I'm not about to take that away from you, but you've worked too hard to give the credit to something that, to my personal understanding, probably doesn't exist. Even if he does exist, I don't think he did anything that great anyway. As an Atheist, the way I see it is like this.

If God is so great, why let this happen anyway? I have had a few responses to this.

1) He gave us free will. OK, wonderful, we have free will, unless our free will is tossed aside by someone else for their enjoyment.

2) It was a test. Any being that would test a living human with this kind of pain, I do not want to exist anyway.

3) He does not give you anything you can't handle. Sorry, I wake up every morning feeling I can't handle this. The fact that I do, I feel, says more about me personally, than anything else.

I live next to a church, I see news everyday about religion's fight to remove my rights, or to keep me from attaining my rights because I happen to be gay. I have been told by church officials that I need to forgive my brother. Fuck. That. Shit. No, I am an Atheist, I am Anti-Theist, and while I may not be entirely happy with my life as I see it, I am damned happy with the result of my struggles, and God gets no credit in that.

Thanks for listening to my little rant.

IMO..  The better reason given by theist for giving god credit is that it keeps them humble..  They are constantly in awe and reminded of the lack of control and understanding they have of this world..  and remind themselves of this by recognizing the infinite and vast amount of probablistic permutations that have to take place for a thing to work in their favor... and they hope for the best when it does not..  They ascribe purpose and meaning to such things which necessitates and organizer or "mind" to control it..  

I agree with them to some extent..  just not with the latter part..

In other words ...  emotionally there have been moments where I have recognized the vast amount of happenings in the world and am humbled by something going my way that I really wanted, desired or needed..  recognizing that things could have gone differently in spite of my interactions with others...  I am left feeling thankful... grateful in some way..  and perhaps because of the human need to anthropomorphize everything lol

The way I've viewed such events as the child being saved is nothing more than a flight of good luck. People love to tout miracles such as that, but then only credit their specific deity if the miracle-receiver shared their same belief. No one talks about 'bad' miracles - cases of really awful luck, like the story a few years back of a cop in Denver who got killed during a traffic stop, not by a car, but by a detached tire from a semi passing by. Just rolled him down. Now, if it had been a robber or some other 'bad guy', instead of a cop, then it might have become a 'good' miracle, but it goes to show that 'miracles' are all in the eye of the beholder.

[GAYtheist]

...for your hard work? I understand that you believe in something higher than yourself, and I'm not about to take that away from you, but you've worked too hard to give the credit to something that, to my personal understanding, probably doesn't exist. Even if he does exist, I don't think he did anything that great anyway. As an Atheist, the way I see it is like this.

If God is so great, why let this happen anyway? I have had a few responses to this.

1) He gave us free will. OK, wonderful, we have free will, unless our free will is tossed aside by someone else for their enjoyment.

2) It was a test. Any being that would test a living human with this kind of pain, I do not want to exist anyway.

3) He does not give you anything you can't handle. Sorry, I wake up every morning feeling I can't handle this. The fact that I do, I feel, says more about me personally, than anything else.

I live next to a church, I see news everyday about religion's fight to remove my rights, or to keep me from attaining my rights because I happen to be gay. I have been told by church officials that I need to forgive my brother. Fuck. That. Shit. No, I am an Atheist, I am Anti-Theist, and while I may not be entirely happy with my life as I see it, I am damned happy with the result of my struggles, and God gets no credit in that.

Thanks for listening to my little rant.

IMO..  The better reason given by theist for giving god credit is that it keeps them humble..  They are constantly in awe and reminded of the lack of control and understanding they have of this world..  and remind themselves of this by recognizing the infinite and vast amount of probablistic permutations that have to take place for a thing to work in their favor... and they hope for the best when it does not..  They ascribe purpose and meaning to such things which necessitates and organizer or "mind" to control it..  

I agree with them to some extent..  just not with the latter part..

In other words ...  emotionally there have been moments where I have recognized the vast amount of happenings in the world and am humbled by something going my way that I really wanted, desired or needed..  recognizing that things could have gone differently in spite of my interactions with others...  I am left feeling thankful... grateful in some way..  and perhaps because of the human need to anthropomorphize everything lol

It is either luck or hard work of a person or persons that get the job done.

[februarystars]

So a friend of mine just posted on FaceBook:

I need everyone's help!!! Please pray for my grandfather. He has cancer in his back and another spot. He is one of the best people in the world so please pray!!! Thanks!

And while I feel really bad for her that her family is going through this, I can't help but think about the message in her plea. Her grandfather is such a good person, but has has developed cancer. Did God give him cancer? If he had won the lottery, it would have been a reward from God for being a good person. They would have thanked God for the gift.

But her grandfather didn't win the lottery. He got cancer. So the way to remedy this is to get as many people as possible to ask God to cure him. Does God not take into account that the grandfather was a good man whose good deeds are worthy of a healthy body? Or does this man's life balance on the results of a sort of American Idol type popularity contest where whichever sick person gets the most call-ins gets to stick around for another week? If he had nobody to pray for him, would his prospects be any different?

If he succumbs to the cancer, will they say it was just his time to go and that God had bigger plans than we mortals can comprehend? If he overcomes it, will they thank the doctors who have dedicated their lives to saving others' lives? Or will they just give all the credit to God, since after all, the grandfather was a good person?

[xSilverPhinx]

IMO..  The better reason given by theist for giving god credit is that it keeps them humble..  They are constantly in awe and reminded of the lack of control and understanding they have of this world..  and remind themselves of this by recognizing the infinite and vast amount of probablistic permutations that have to take place for a thing to work in their favor... and they hope for the best when it does not..  They ascribe purpose and meaning to such things which necessitates and organizer or "mind" to control it..  

I agree with them to some extent..  just not with the latter part..

In other words ...  emotionally there have been moments where I have recognized the vast amount of happenings in the world and am humbled by something going my way that I really wanted, desired or needed..  recognizing that things could have gone differently in spite of my interactions with others...  I am left feeling thankful... grateful in some way..  and perhaps because of the human need to anthropomorphize everything lol

That's what I would call "luck" and to me luck (good and bad) does exist. I would consider myself a very lucky person in general, and believe me, I'm grateful for some of the things that have come my way.    But credit where credit's due. I don't take credit for the lucky and unlucky things that are beyond my control, but mingled in there are the things that I do take personal credit for.
Giving a god credit when outcomes based on skill and hard work are lucky is ridiculous, IMO.

And while I feel really bad for her that her family is going through this, I can't help but think about the message in her plea. Her grandfather is such a good person, but has has developed cancer. Did God give him cancer? If he had won the lottery, it would have been a reward from God for being a good person. They would have thanked God for the gift.

But her grandfather didn't win the lottery. He got cancer. So the way to remedy this is to get as many people as possible to ask God to cure him. Does God not take into account that the grandfather was a good man whose good deeds are worthy of a healthy body? Or does this man's life balance on the results of a sort of American Idol type popularity contest where whichever sick person gets the most call-ins gets to stick around for another week? If he had nobody to pray for him, would his prospects be any different?

If he succumbs to the cancer, will they say it was just his time to go and that God had bigger plans than we mortals can comprehend? If he overcomes it, will they thank the doctors who have dedicated their lives to saving others' lives? Or will they just give all the credit to God, since after all, the grandfather was a good person?

In those cases it has little to do with any theological aspects (the problem of evil and suffering, etc), but more about trying to control the uncontrollable through negotiation (praying).

[februarystars]

In those cases it has little to do with any theological aspects (the problem of evil and suffering, etc), but more about trying to control the uncontrollable through negotiation (praying).

I hope I didn't come across as cold and unsympathetic. It breaks my heart to think about the helplessness one feels when a family member or close friend is in danger of pain or death. I know people really want to do anything they can to help the situation, and when there's nothing physical they can do, they often resort to prayer, and I can see how it comforts them.

It's just the idea of asking other people to pray on their behalf that makes me wonder what people really think about God's character. Children in Christian environments are often taught from an early age that God sees everything you do, hears everything you say, and even knows everything you think, all day every day. In this moment of helpless panic, do they wonder if maybe God isn't listening as intently as they might have thought, or even worse, that he hears them but needs a bit more convincing before he decides whether or not to act? If the desired outcome doesn't pan out, do they think God considered their plea, but decided to act otherwise, or do they think they just didn't pray hard enough and God simply didn't hear? I guess everybody interprets the situation differently.

Even when I was religious, I never felt close to God, so I definitely just don't get it. I never asked him for anything, and so I've never had to thank him for anything. 'Nuff said.

[xSilverPhinx]

I hope I didn't come across as cold and unsympathetic. It breaks my heart to think about the helplessness one feels when a family member or close friend is in danger of pain or death. I know people really want to do anything they can to help the situation, and when there's nothing physical they can do, they often resort to prayer, and I can see how it comforts them.

It's just the idea of asking other people to pray on their behalf that makes me wonder what people really think about God's character. Children in Christian environments are often taught from an early age that God sees everything you do, hears everything you say, and even knows everything you think, all day every day. In this moment of helpless panic, do they wonder if maybe God isn't listening as intently as they might have thought, or even worse, that he hears them but needs a bit more convincing before he decides whether or not to act? If the desired outcome doesn't pan out, do they think God considered their plea, but decided to act otherwise, or do they think they just didn't pray hard enough and God simply didn't hear? I guess everybody interprets the situation differently.

Even when I was religious, I never felt close to God, so I definitely just don't get it. I never asked him for anything, and so I've never had to thank him for anything. 'Nuff said. :cool:

The way I see it, god's character doesn't matter much in that situation, it's the action that people are after, and action can maybe be transformed into currency (many people praying for the same effect). And yes, people will rationalise and find an answer, whatever the outcome - as many different answers for the same effect as there are people looking for an answer.

I do know how despair can bring out those kinds of things in people, and I'm not judging them for trying to negotiate with reality/god, I just wouldn't pray if someone asked me to because I know it's pointless.

I'm going to go off on a tangent here but I think that theological speculations on the nature of god are extremely shallow. People trying to reconcile their preconceived notions of what reality should be with what it actually is looks so misdirected, mundane and in the end, futile.

[iSok]

You give credit to God, so the seed of ego cannot be planted in you.
Yes, we do have free will, that's true.

But...let me tell you once again the story of the birds

There were a few birds, and they were unhappy. Because the ants had their queen, the bees had their queen, the lions had their king..etc
So they wanted to find their king too, and it happened to be the Phoenix.
So they all went on a long journey, a journey they could only make as a group.

They flew in a V-formation, the one in front had to drag them all (aerodynamic), they regurlary changed position.
So it was everybody's turn to fly in front position. This is the only way they could reach the Phoenix.

Once they reached the Phoenix, the Phoenix asked them: Who made it possible to come on a journey here?
All of the birds answered at the same: I made it possible. Not a single one of them said 'We' made it possible.

So when you achieve something. You don't say 'I did this'. Because this will stimulate the ego that's in you. "Look how good I am, I don't need God! I did this, not God!"
You achieved it, because of other human beings. In the first place it should be always 'We did this'. "I'  is very wrong in my opinion...

In those cases it has little to do with any theological aspects (the problem of evil and suffering, etc), but more about trying to control the uncontrollable through negotiation (praying).

The problem of evil? It's rather easy too explain. "Evil and suffering" is neccesary.
If we just open your eyes, it's very rational (I know you people love the word 'rational')