Euthanasia (split from religion going extinct in 9 countries)

[Tank]

My central point of argument is:
Man is too weak (and too sinister...) to decide about issues like this, it has already been proven by studies and history.

And you believe Allah created humanity?
I think you just shot yourself in the foot there iSok.

[iSok]

My central point of argument is:
Man is too weak (and too sinister...) to decide about issues like this, it has already been proven by studies and history.

And you believe Allah created humanity?
I think you just shot yourself in the foot there iSok.

Do you mean that man is allowed within Islam to put someone to death who has done something wrong?

[Stevil]

My uncle gave her a few morphine shots and within two hours she breathed her last breath peacefully.

I certainly applaud your uncle for doing the right thing, however we should look towards making this legal, people should not go to prison for doing the right thing for their loved ones.

[iSok]

My uncle gave her a few morphine shots and within two hours she breathed her last breath peacefully.

I certainly applaud your uncle for doing the right thing, however we should look towards making this legal, people should not go to prison for doing the right thing for their loved ones.

My grandma did not die of an overdosis morphine.
She would get two shots in the morning and in the evening each day to ease her suffering.
When she lay down, it was time for her evening shots.
What I wanted to make clear is that cancer does not neccesarily have to mean suffering.
My grandma died a peaceful natural death in a third-world country, without the most basic medical facilities.

(It's chemo that kills the body here in the west, cancer finishes man pretty quick)

Our cancer treatments are also pretty medieval, no wonder that people suffer.

Chemo --> pumping the body with poison....
Radiation --> Burn the tumor....
Surgery --> Hack and Slash the tumor...

[Tank]

My central point of argument is:
Man is too weak (and too sinister...) to decide about issues like this, it has already been proven by studies and history.

And you believe Allah created humanity?
I think you just shot yourself in the foot there iSok.

Do you mean that man is allowed within Islam to put someone to death who has done something wrong?

No. If Man is such a fuck-up then Allah is responsible as (in your eyes) he created Man. All that is good or bad in mankind is Allah's fault, end of story. We are puppets with no free-will and Allah just gets his jollies toying with his puppets. Either that or we are evolved apes, with just enough brains to be dangerous. I vote evolved ape myself, it's a much better explanation than the myriad examples of mythology mankind has created as a sop for his ignorance.

[Stevil]

My uncle gave her a few morphine shots and within two hours she breathed her last breath peacefully.

I certainly applaud your uncle for doing the right thing, however we should look towards making this legal, people should not go to prison for doing the right thing for their loved ones.

My grandma did not die of an overdosis morphine.

I'm not going to use your grandmother's predicament for the purposes of a debate. My grandfather met a similar fate, but painfully in hospital.
I have suggested a possibility to you knowing that people often do not know the full story. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. But life is complex and difficult decisions are often made. Having morphine on hand presents opportunity, seeing a loved one suffer (and potentially plead for something) makes a person weigh up their love for that person against the rules that are put before them.

We should not judge and we should not paint the world black and white. Adults ought to be treated as adults and we should not look to take away their responsibilities on making adult decisions. Whether your uncle did or did not do as I suggest, at least he must have made some difficult decisions knowing that he had the ability to make a difference.

I can only speculate and it doesn't matter what I think. You do not need to defend your uncles honour. I don't even know who your uncle is. I have no ill feelings towards him, which ever choice he may or may not have made.

[fester30]

Part of the problem we have with euthanasia in the USA is in something that is not even a legal document... the Declaration of Independence.  Americans put such value in this document, even though it's the Constitution that is the basis for our laws.  The Declaration says we have the unalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  Unalienable right to life means that not only can your right to live not be taken from you, but also that you cannot give that right away.  Of course, despite those words, we had slavery until 1865 and still have death penalties.  However, suicide is still illegal, as is assisted suicide.  You could be prosecuted for attempting to kill yourself and failing, but most of the time they decide not to prosecute, and instead you get therapy or might even find yourself committed.  It's just another example of certain beliefs being unevenly applied.

[Stevil]

The Declaration says we have the unalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I think liberty could mean liberty from unbearable pain e.g. euthanasia. pursuit of happiness could be persuit of gaining the right to end ones suffering.
I don't think the Declaration is the barrier, I think it is the strangle hold of religious influence.
If it were the worry of inappropriate use as iSok has suggested then certain measures could be put in place.
We must trust that we are smart enough to put together a robust and humane solution to the suffering of millions.

Is it fair that a terminally ill atheist should suffer because a group of muslims or christians believe that their gods won't be happy for the atheist to chose to end their life?

[iSok]

No. If Man is such a fuck-up then Allah is responsible as (in your eyes) he created Man. All that is good or bad in mankind is Allah's fault, end of story. We are puppets with no free-will and Allah just gets his jollies toying with his puppets. Either that or we are evolved apes, with just enough brains to be dangerous. I vote evolved ape myself, it's a much better explanation than the myriad examples of mythology mankind has created as a sop for his ignorance.

First of all Tank, I guess evolution is the most plausible answer for our existence (for now). So I pretty much 'accept' the theory.
Most muslims would accept this also, if they had a bit of education.
According to Islam, as long as there's sufficient proof for something, we are bound to accept it.
I am not going to accept senseless theories, but evolution on the other hand explains a lot I guess.
So I guess the primates here, have one common ancestor.  

As a matter of fact, it would be senseless that God, who has given us intellect, would not allow us to see our past.
To see the history of this planet, to understand it and too understand that we can easilly be wiped out, that we are nothing.
Most muslims in the west, accept this theory. But there are a lot of Muslims who are not educated and see this theory as yet another attack on Islam.
(The west is pretty famous in the Muslim world as an anti-Islamic movement)
So you will see people like Harun Yahya, who reject this theory.
Evolution makes sense.

As you know, the Qur'an talks a lot about nature, to understand that the only possible way is God.
A while back I had a debate with Recusant, about the Signs in the Qur'an.
Eventually he concluded that the Qur'an does not predict science but rather reflects science like a mirror.
At first, I didn't agree with him, but when I thought about it, he had a point.

In 1400 years, science changed a lot, the Qur'an did not.
So what about the people who were not aware of theories like the Big Bang, wouldn't they be troubled when they would read this?
Recusant was right, the Qur'an indeed reflects science, and I find this even more amazing.
Let me give you an example, on what the Qur'an says about the origin of the universe and the current condition.


Qur'an [21:30] - "Did the unbelievers not realise that the heavens and the earth were one solid mass, then We tore them apart, and We made every living being out of water? Will they, then, not believe?"


When a Muslim read this before the 20th century, I think it would trouble him a bit. 'What does God mean here...?' Today we can understand this.

There's another verse in the Qur'an, verse 51:47, which can be translated in two different ways, because of One central word 'Musiqun' (which has two meanings).
The following is the first meaning:
Qur'an - [51:47]- "And heaven â€" We made it with Our Own Power and We have the Power to do so."

The scholar who translated verse 51:47 in this way adds in his tafseer (Tafseer = explanation of the Qur'an):

The word must' (pl. musi'un) may mean the one who possesses power and means, and also the one who can extend and expand something. According to the first meaning, the verse would mean: "We have built this heaven by Our own might and not with somebody else's help, and its erection was in no way beyond Us. Then how can you ever conceive that We shall not be able to recreate it ?" According to the second meaning, it would mean: "This huge universe that We have created, is not a finished work, but We are expanding it continuously, and new and ever new manifestations of Our creation are appearing in it every moment. How do you then think that such a marvelous Creator would not be able to repeat His creation.  

So today verse 51:47 is always translated in the second way (because we use the Qur'an as a mirror).
The Qur'an translation I often use, is translated in 1979 by a Pakistani scholar, with zero knowledge of science.
If he had, he would not add such an important fact in his tafseer (laymen barely read tafseer), but he would use this translation in the verse.
Just read his tafseer (the above bold red part)...

This alone should be enough to convince one of the truth, that this is the Truth.
But many of us will not accept it. The question here that should be raised is: Why?
I think there are many, many reasons, why people not accept this.

But I think there is a primary reason. You as a grandfather, Tank, you probably have grandchildren, you have also experienced your own children.
Children are naturally very curious, so are we.
When we ask a child to eat vegetables, he asks: why?
When we answer, that it's good for him, he'll ask: why?
When we answer that it'll make him healthy and strong, he'll ask: why or how?
When we answer that there are certain vitamins that'll strenghten his body, he'll answer: how?
And this will of course go on for hours, till the adult or the child falls asleep of fatique.
And we're doing this exactly, we're just like children.

So when you read a passage like that in the Qur'an, you'll not accept it.
But you will immediatly raise questions:

1. What is the soul?
2. Do apes have soul? Why do we have a soul, if we came through evolution?
3. Why are there so many religions? What about the Egyptian Gods, or the Greece Gods?
4. Why is there suffering?
5. Why are the muslims so backward and crazy if they follow God's final word?
6. Why do women wear a veil?
7. Why did the Prophet marry a 9 year old?
8. Why didn't God do anything during the holocaust?
9. Why did God choose those Arabs?
10. Why is the Qur'an in Arabic?


And so on....you will not find immediatly an answer on these questions.
Tired of the empty answers, you'll retreat once again and will reject the message.
This is why, even now you will not accept, this is exactly how it goes.
But I believe a lot of the answers can be found within Islam, only by extensively studying, because your intellect has a right on you.
You did not get this intellect just to 'walk around without purpose' and die.

As for evolution, it's interesting what the Qur'an says about this (as it's a mirror).
I'll quote a few.

Qur'an [56:61]- "Had We so wished, nothing could have hindered Us from replacing you by others like yourselves, or transforming you into beings you know nothing about."

Qur'an [4:133]- "If He wills, He has the full power to remove you, O mankind, and bring in others in your place."

Qur'an [32:7]- "He Who excelled in the creation of all that He created. He originated the creation of man from clay."

Qur'an [30:20]- "And of His Signs is that He created you from dust and behold, you became human beings, and are multiplying around (the earth)."
 
Qur'an [30:20]- "Have they never observed how God creates for the first time and then repeats it? Indeed (to repeat the creation of a thing) is even easier for God (than creating it for the first time)."

Qur'an [30:20]- "Say: “Go about the earth and see how He created for the first time, and then God will recreate life.” Surely, God has power over everything."

But let's put this aside Tank, your original question was, why did God create man so weak?


Qur'an [4:28]- "God wants to lighten your burdens, for man was created weak."

The important aspect within Islam is the journey to perfection.
Man is encouraged to go from weakness to strength.
The most important aspect within this is: Jihad (inner struggle, the battle against your instinct)

In nature we find concepts like survival of the fittest. We human beings are still doing this.
I'll use the same example as I did earlier on here.

Take the example of buying groceries. You'll see people picking the best vegetables by touching each vegetable (are they rotten or not?), picking the best and leaving the rest to others
without carring much. Islam calls this primitive behaviour which belongs in nature (survival of the fittest) and condems it. It's more appropriate that you just take the first vegetable
that you grab without inspecting it, since you are no better than other human beings.

This is a concept of Jihad, you beat the inner voice of nature: 'take it, you are first' and you replace that by pure reason 'If everyone thought like this, it would be horrible'
The inner voice of nature is the weakness of man, of course it's more complex.
So man came forward from evolution and now he has the choice to beat his inner self that came from nature

 That is the central challenge for mankind in this life according to Islam. --> Beat your nature. by Jihad (inner struggle).
It works with concepts like no sexual relations before marriage. When animals feel it's time, they just do it.
By religion we are challenged, to reject this need of nature (to beat nature), to reason that sexual relation before marriage might also have it's cons.
So marriage is seen as the 'legal' way for human beings. Something that separates us from the rest of nature.

Another aspect is controlling your anger, or your instinct. When you hit a lion, his instinct will lead to your death.
But when you hit a human being who is succesful in 'Jihad', he will think and reason before he does something.

He might think; 'Why did he hit me? Did I do something wrong? what is the most appropriate response for this person?' --> This will lead to a certain response.
If he understands that the person was hurt because of some words, he'll only smile and apogolize and won't hit back.
But if he understands that the person is an agressor and only to avoid a beating next time is by hitting back so he won't do it next time, then he'll hit back.

The person who cannot control himself after someone hits him, will immediatly respond with violence without a second of thinking.
There's no difference between the lion with no reason and this person, he's lead by instinct just like the lion.

So this is what Islam teaches. Man should go from weakness to strength by controlling himself and surpressing nature by reason and intellect.
This is what God calls: True succes.

Qur'an [5:35]- "Believers! Fear God and seek the means to come near to Him, and strive hard in His way; maybe you will attain true success."
Qur'an [26:89] -"but only he that brings to God a sound heart will attain to success."
Qur'an [26:89] -"Such people are on the right way from their Lord and such are truly successful."

Nonetheless, this of course works on an individual basis. Not on the basis of a society.
Within society, there will be people that will be far from nature, others will be very close.
Because there will always be people, who will stay weak, and they cannot be controlled.

Introducing concepts like Euthanasia is dangerous, because there are individuals within society that do not use reason and intellect the way it should be used, and they may do something wrong.
Like I said; Man is too weak to judge about this.

EDIT: I just found out, I worked 30-40 mins on this....

[DirtyLeo]

So I pretty much 'accept' the theory.

May I just point out that the "theory" here is not "just a hypothesis", it is a scientific theory.
Here are two meanings of the word "theory" from the Oxford Dictionary:

1. A scheme or system of ideas or statements held as an explanation or account of a group of facts or phenomena; a hypothesis that has been confirmed or established by observation or experiment, and is propounded or accepted as accounting for the known facts; a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed

2. A hypothesis proposed as an explanation; hence, a mere hypothesis, speculation, conjecture; an idea or set of ideas about something; an individual view or notion.

Even though the first meaning of the term is the correct one in this context, some religious people use the second meaning.
I just wanted to point it out.

[Heretical Rants]

Yea, I don't really understand people who deny scientific theories purely because of their religion. Usually the two can be reconciled, especially if you look at the theory as an explaination of how their god does things.

So I pretty much 'accept' the theory.

May I just point out that the "theory" here is not "just a hypothesis", it is a scientific theory.
....

Even though the first meaning of the term is the correct one in this context, some religious people use the second meaning.
I just wanted to point it out.

It didn't seem to me like that needed pointing out in this case.

[Recusant]

A while back I had a debate with Recusant, about the Signs in the Qur'an.
Eventually he concluded that the Qur'an does not predict science but rather reflects science like a mirror.
At first, I didn't agree with him, but when I thought about it, he had a point.

In 1400 years, science changed a lot, the Qur'an did not.
So what about the people who were not aware of theories like the Big Bang, wouldn't they be troubled when they would read this?
Recusant was right, the Qur'an indeed reflects science, and I find this even more amazing.
Let me give you an example, on what the Qur'an says about the origin of the universe and the current condition.

 Sly, but not quite accurate, iSok.  In fact what I was talking about is how recent translations of the Quran have been crafted to reflect modern science.

url=http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6732&start=45#p101301]Recusant[/url]"]In fact the Quran did not predict modern cosmology, rather the translation was changed to reflect modern cosmology.

And again:

url=http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6732&start=45#p101434]Recusant[/url]"]You (and others who subscribe to these ideas) may try to say that infidels such as myself should see the fact that the verse can be re-translated to reflect modern science as a sign of the miraculous nature of the Quran. I do not see it that way. When words can have so many meanings (as is the case in Arabic) then it's inevitable that people will change their understanding of the writing to reflect the modern world when it suits their agenda. This is not miraculous, and is not a sign to me of a divine origin for your holy book.

For a third time (same thread):

url=http://www.happyatheistforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6732&start=60#p101455]Recusant[/url]"]...the meaning which was chosen by the later translator was chosen to reflect modern science. This is not a prediction of modern science.

You corrected me by pointing out that though the translation from which you were deriving these "miraculous" ayat was relatively recent, there seems to have been no way that the translator could have been aware of modern cosmology.  I concede that point, yet remain dubious (to say the least) regarding the relevance of the Quran to modern science.

[iSok]

A while back I had a debate with Recusant, about the Signs in the Qur'an.
Eventually he concluded that the Qur'an does not predict science but rather reflects science like a mirror.
At first, I didn't agree with him, but when I thought about it, he had a point.

In 1400 years, science changed a lot, the Qur'an did not.
So what about the people who were not aware of theories like the Big Bang, wouldn't they be troubled when they would read this?
Recusant was right, the Qur'an indeed reflects science, and I find this even more amazing.
Let me give you an example, on what the Qur'an says about the origin of the universe and the current condition.

For a part you are right Recusant, translators indeed change the translations so it will reflect modern science.
But this translation that they present, is not grasped out of thin air. It has a basis in the Qur'an.

When I quote verses here from the Qur'an, they are most of the time from this website: --> http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php
It's a 1979 translation by a Pakistani scholar with no knowledge of science (If you read his tafseer, you'll understand that)

Let me give you once again the example, he translates this verse in the following way.

Qur'an [51:47]- "And heaven â€" We made it with Our Own Power and We have the Power to do so."

But in his tafseer, he adds the following about the same verse:
The word must' (pl. musi'un) may mean the one who possesses power and means, and also the one who can extend and expand something. According to the first meaning, the verse would mean: "We have built this heaven by Our own might and not with somebody else's help, and its erection was in no way beyond Us. Then how can you ever conceive that We shall not be able to recreate it ?" According to the second meaning, it would mean: "This huge universe that We have created, is not a finished work, but We are expanding it continuously, and new and ever new manifestations of Our creation are appearing in it every moment. How do you then think that such a marvelous Creator would not be able to repeat His creation.

To me this is amazing. That a layman with no background in science actually wrote this down in the mountains of Pakistan.
So the translations are not just picked out of thin air or crafted, they have a foundation in the Qur'an. The tafseer above should be enough to prove this point.

Translators before this would choose for the 'Power' aspect in 51:47 (Because it makes more sense, for their worldview --> Qur'an reflects)
Today they choose for the 'expanding' aspect --> their worldview, it makes more sense.
Both 'Power' and 'Expanding' are equal in this verse.
And that is what I find so amazing, that the Qur'an does not disturb the reality of man by shocking him, it grows with man during time. It's timeless.
(50 years ago, scientists thought that the universe was eternal and steady)

We are very curious creatures, truth seekers. We can see this aspect in the life of children.
Sometimes they can make your head spin when the 'why?' and 'how?'  questions are fired continuosly.
So if we set the parameters of truth, we can accept truth, rather than walking around in the dark.
And demanding the explanation of the explanation of the explanation. Or proof of proof.

The Author of the Qur'an claims that He was always present and that He created everything.
If He can make one point clear, then I have to accept the truth. But He doesn't just make one point clear, but many.....
I have no other reason than to accept this. The only reason I sometimes doubt is because I find the concept of eternal life terrifying....
The Why and How questions should be still followed, and we should do as much as possible to understand more.

But if we can't answer it, that should not mean that we should retreat from the Truth, just because our hunger for answers is not stilled.
A child should not stop eating brocolli or stop visiting school, just because he does not understand it.

(I agree that people like Harun Yahya are going a bit extreme, by even saying that the basis of the eiffel tower can be found in the Qur'an, it gives this topic a bad picture.)
You are right in the essence, that one should not go in the extremes of pointing out that everything that science reveals is stated in the Qur'an.



Qur'an [3:58] - What We recite to you consists of signs and wise admonition."

It's a book of Signs with the theme off: 'You did not know this before, so believe that this is the Truth'
The Qur'an also admits that some verses we can't understand at this moment.


Qur'an [3:7] - "It is He Who has revealed the Book to you. Some of its verses are absolutely clear and lucid, and these are the core of the Book. Others are ambiguous. Those in whose hearts there is perversity, always go about the part which is ambiguous, seeking mischief and seeking to arrive at its meaning arbitrarily, although none knows their true meaning except God. On the contrary, those firmly rooted in knowledge say: 'We believe in it; it is all from our Lord alone. No one derives true admonition from anything except the men of understanding."

Islam in my opinion is a religion of knowledge. A life time studying is not enough to understand every aspect.
A religion of God should be that way, too stimulate the greatest gift that God has given us: Intellect.


Qur'an [3:7] - "Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, there are signs for men of understanding."

[Stevil]

Islam in my opinion is a religion of knowledge.

In my opinion it is impossible to have a religion based on knowledge.
Religions are based on faith and belief. The requirement of faith and belief is accepting something to be true without knowledge. With knowledge, concepts become facts. Science would be the closest to having a religion of knowledge, but then again science isn't a religion.

[iSok]

Islam in my opinion is a religion of knowledge.

In my opinion it is impossible to have a religion based on knowledge.
Religions are based on faith and belief. The requirement of faith and belief is accepting something to be true without knowledge. With knowledge, concepts become facts. Science would be the closest to having a religion of knowledge, but then again science isn't a religion.

What I want to make clear is that Islam is not only. --> Believe in God.
It's also to understand why God wants certain things, what our purpose is.
For example the Sharia.

Why do women inherit 1/2 of a man? Why should a women wear a veil?
What are the ethics of war? In what cases is war allowed?
How should the laws be applied?
How should the economy be set up? Why is interest forbidden?

These are just simple examples, but it certainly demands knowledge to understand Islam.
Understanding this is trying to understand what God wants from us.
(In this reality we will never understand God, it's beyond our perception. When I quote the Qur'an I talk about the Qur'an, not about God, we can only try to understand what God wants from us)
This is the knowledge I am talking about for which you need your intellect.