Euthanasia (split from religion going extinct in 9 countries)

[iSok]

Is that really why you think people don't believe in god?

That's exactly why I think that people don't believe.
Even laymen today try to talk in an intellectual 'fashioned' way just to assume that God does not exist.
(In the past it were some of the intelligent people that did not believe).
Today it's a trend, to follow intelligent people because they are always 'right'.

How about this:
1. Are there any photo's of God? No
2. Are there any sound recordings of God? No
3. Can God be detected by any physical equipment? No
4. Are there any detectable observations that can only be attributed to God? No
5. Is there a consice definition of God, including anything that can be observed or measured? No
6. Is there a universal agreement with regards to what God looks like? No
7. Is there a universal agreement with regards to how God can be recognised? No
8. Is it possible for an intelligent being to exist before existence itself? No
9. Is it possible for a being to be intelligent before existence? No
10. Is it possible for a being to be made of non material stuff? No
11. Is it possible for a being to be made of nothing? No

You naturally asume that God should be within your perception. Otherwise He does not exist.
That's like saying that you can see everything, the Absolute. You assume that God is made of matter.
You think that God should be submitted to the scientific method, since you believe it's the only method to understand everything.
I believe we should submit to God and to see that science gives a lot of understanding but not everything.
That our method is not perfect, that we are not perfect. That only God is perfect.
That is true submission, and ego has no place in that.


I have to confess that I don't know what God is made off, wether He is made of something.
Or if He is a mind. I understand very well that, it's beyond my perception to understand God.
I can only try to understand what He wants and I hope I am right.
So yes Stevil, at those points you can ridicule me.

12. How do we know of the story of God? Bible, Koran, ...
13. Do these documents contradict with each other? Yes
14. Do these documents contradict themselves? Sometimes
15. Do these documents present imposible ideas? Yes
16. Is there an alternative to the possiblity of God? Yes

In detail they might contradict.
But every religion today has one thing in common.
"There is One God and do good to go near Him".

Just take the example of Hinduism.
They believe in One God, but they just think that He comes to earth in different forms/incarnations.
I believe the people, that they are talking about --> Brahma, Krishna or Ram were actually messengers. Because of their high moral
character, people are now worshipping them. Christ for example had such a high moral code, that he is also seen as God.

I think I mentioned here earlier on about Brahma and his wife Saraswati.
Saraswati is the goddess of fertility within Hinduism and Brahama is her husband.

Abraham - Brahma
Sara - Saraswati    

Notice, how much the names are a like, it's just unbelievable.

1. Names are almost the same
2. Both refer to a couple
3. Brahma is the husband and Saraswati is the wife.
4. Saraswati is the goddess of fertility (note that Sara gave birth on a very late age).

Do you see this as coincidence?
So Stevil, their are some amazing facts here... where religions almost look the same.

Qur'an [6:42] - "And We did indeed send Messengers to other nations before you and then We seized those nations with misfortune and hardship so that they might humble themselves (before Us)."

17. Is there money/power motive for promoting God? Yes

There surely are scams. But the majority of religious people give more than they take.
Just take a look at Christian aid-organisations. They are everywhere. We muslims give 2,5% - 3% of our income to the needy.
The mosque I usually attend, raised a little less than 5000 euro's at a friday afternoon for Japan.

Why I am against?

1. If we allow it, the laws will be more and more smooth as time passes. Eventually it will be something common.
2. We are very weak and most of the time we are lead by emotions instead of reason.

So if I'm not mistaken, you are going with the slippery slope concept.

I can't say I am wise enough in my young age to know whether euthanasia will go down that path.  I can say if we're going to go with the idea that it's a woman's body, therefore it's a woman's choice (abortion) than why shouldn't we use the same concept with everybody when it comes to suicide or assisted suicide?  We could have assisted death clinics (that would probably get bombed by some crazy).

Yes, the slippery slope concept.
Actually this whole discussion would not be needed if we changed one thing.

Do you know what the largest group is that will ask for Euthanasia? It will be the elderly.
It's sad...sad fact that we  treat animals better than the elderly here in the west.

They are disposed like trash, sitting in a room 3 by 3, waiting for death. While their dear son or daughter
visits them once a week (if they are fortunate enough). Visiting them is almost like a burden for the family and the elderly
know very well this fact. A whole week long they are longing to see their family but their family just sees them as a burden.
When they come, there is no love, no bond, only the feeling of: 'I do this because my conscience will not leave me alone otherwise'.

It's a sick thought, that they ask for Euthanasia, because they are lonely and in missery.
This discussion interested me, and I visited a few pro-Euthanasia websites, to see what their target was.
So they post multiple stories of people, that long for Euthanasia.

It shocked me that, most of them are elderly who are just lonely.
In Belgium for example, there was a couple. The husband was 83 and he had terminal prostate cancer. So he was about to die soon.
The woman was not ill. But nonetheless, both asked for euthanasia and it was approved.
The woman did no longer want to live, because she would be lonely.

It's the slippery slope concept, the weakness of man and the peer pressure that will be here.

I think you must have heard of terminal dehydration. You stop giving patients fluid, so death will come soon.
This was introduced in the 90's here. And in some elderly homes, where the elderly were suffering from dementia (memory loss), they were
terminal dehydrated without asking their permission. They just didn't give them any water because they assumed it would be better for them to die soon.
One man (63) was saved by his family and they filled in a lawsuit.

These are just examples of why I'm against it.
Are you going to introduce it because it's ethical? I don't agree.
Is it a good way to get rid of population ageing to save on expenses? I agree.

This whole discussion would not be needed if we just took our responsibility to care for our parents.
To care for them like they have cared for us,
to treat them like they have treated us,
to love them like they haved loved us,
even if they turned into children because we were also children.

Not get rid of them like animals just because we see them as a burden.
If we do that, no doubt that the cycle will repeat and you will also end in misery.

Qur'an  [46:15] - "We have enjoined man to be kind to his parents. In pain did his mother bear him and in pain did she give birth to him."

[Stevil]

So yes Stevil, at those points you can ridicule me.

I have no intent to ridicule you. My disbelief in gods has nothing to do with you.
My disbelief is because I can't see the logic as to why a god would be necessary or possible.
The only "proof" is the books/scripture written by people thousands of years ago. These books are riddled with holes and contradict and show no reason why the authors came to the conclusion of their stories. I am not following trends or some arbitrary "intelligent" person. My disbelieve is personal to me and has come about throuhg much thought and consideration. Please don't tell me that I am lieing to you.

[iSok]

So yes Stevil, at those points you can ridicule me.

I have no intent to ridicule you. My disbelief in gods has nothing to do with you.
My disbelief is because I can't see the logic as to why a god would be necessary or possible.
The only "proof" is the books/scripture written by people thousands of years ago. These books are riddled with holes and contradict and show no reason why the authors came to the conclusion of their stories. I am not following trends or some arbitrary "intelligent" person. My disbelieve is personal to me and has come about throuhg much thought and consideration. Please don't tell me that I am lieing to you.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
My English is very weak, one of the reasons why I came here is too improve my English.
What better is  way there, then to be a Muslim on an Atheist forum and talk about religion

What I meant with 'ridicule' is the large gap within my argument you could say.
'I believe in something I don't understand'. So it gives you space for a 'counter-attack', I admitted that I am aware of that.
And I can't back that up in any proper way.
Not in the way of a personal attack.

(Can you share your experience? How, why, when and what faith did you leave? What was the difference when you believed and when you did not, what made you belief?
I understand it's personal, you can ignore this request if you don't feel like replying.)

[Stevil]

My English is very weak, one of the reasons why I came here is too improve my English.
What better is  way there, then to be a Muslim on an Atheist forum and talk about religion

What I meant with 'ridicule' is the large gap within my argument you could say.
'I believe in something I don't understand'. So it gives you space for a 'counter-attack', I admitted that I am aware of that.
And I can't back that up in any proper way.

There are many reasons why we participate on this forum. Not just to talk about Atheist concerns.
I don't care to attack your belief. I am happy that you believe in what you believe, as an individual that is your right and only you know what is best for you.
I will debate, discuss and explore ideas if they seem interesting. I am an opinionated person, so often have a desire to say things about topics. I can only offer my opinion, I cannot tell you what to do or think.

(Can you share your experience? How, why, when and what faith did you leave? What was the difference when you believed and when you did not, what made you belief?
I understand it's personal, you can ignore this request if you don't feel like replying.)

I've never really been a theist. There was a stage in my early life where we had a bible teacher come into school a few times with a fluff board and those pictures of people that she would stick on their and talk about. I was of a very young age at the time and tended to believe everything I was told by the adults at school. When discussing with my parents, my Father didn't believe in gods, my Mother thought that the Christian god existed. This opened the possibility to me that not everything I am told by adults at School is the truth. After much thought I decided it was unlikely that there were any gods. Much later in life I joined this forum and learnt a bit about Christianity and the Bible and was quite surprised and shocked to hear how vile some of the stories of the Bible are and the actions depicted by the Christian god. I have learned through this forum that Christians tend to believe that their god created existence and is non material, I am struggling very much to understand how that works. I am very much struggling to understand how anyone who has read the bible can be a Christian. With regards to muslims, I haven't had much exposure. My wife comes from Malaysia but is a Chinese and does not believe in gods, her family is tending towards Bhudism, one of her good friends is a Muslim but we don't discuss the topic.

[iSok]

Thank you, for your elaborate reply.