Euthanasia (split from religion going extinct in 9 countries)

[Stevil]

after driving around in Vegas  awhile I tend to think church would do those people good.  I think one needs to armor plate his vehicle to drive there.  Those people are nuts!!!

I don't subscribe to the philosophy of the "The ends justify the means". There are generally pitfalls to this.

No doubt the "Christian" morals may have improved people's behavior long ago. But now days it is a hindrance. Our society has moved on well beyond these simplistic and archaic morals. Now they are preventing tolerance of gays, the humanitarianism of euthanasia, the progress of stem cell research...

Although, even back in the day there where which burnings, inquisitions etc..., Human nature being what it is they can easily go to extremes on stuff like this.

[iSok]

after driving around in Vegas  awhile I tend to think church would do those people good.  I think one needs to armor plate his vehicle to drive there.  Those people are nuts!!!

I don't subscribe to the philosophy of the "The ends justify the means". There are generally pitfalls to this.

No doubt the "Christian" morals may have improved people's behavior long ago. But now days it is a hindrance. Our society has moved on well beyond these simplistic and archaic morals. Now they are preventing tolerance of gays, the humanitarianism of euthanasia, the progress of stem cell research...

Although, even back in the day there where which burnings, inquisitions etc..., Human nature being what it is they can easily go to extremes on stuff like this.

Stevil, have you ever been to a place where the elderly stay?
It's not hard to make people wish for death.

[Stevil]

Waiting to die from cancer is no fun. I hate that religions impose their black and white thinking onto society.

[LegendarySandwich]

I don't subscribe to the philosophy of the "The ends justify the means". There are generally pitfalls to this.

I think it depends on the situation. Sometimes the end justifies the means, sometimes it doesn't.

[LegendarySandwich]

Stevil, have you ever been to a place where the elderly stay?
It's not hard to make people wish for death.

So, we shouldn't let anyone commit dignified suicide then?

Honestly, at this point, I think it's better if my grandma was just euthanized. Her life has been extended for too long -- she has many physical problems, she has a horrible memory, she's always miserable.... I think the honorable thing to do would be to put her down gently.

[Tank]

Stevil, have you ever been to a place where the elderly stay?
It's not hard to make people wish for death.

So, we shouldn't let anyone commit dignified suicide then?

I think iSok is right in one sense. Old people's homes in the west and the way old people are treated is enough to make them want to end their lives. All things being equal this should not be the case. If a person wants to end their life because they are facing an end they find intolerable they should be allowed to. If they want to end their life because they have laid in their own waste for the umpteenth time that is a disgrace.

[JoeBobSmith]

 i would always like the option

[Stevil]

When you say  "I don't subscribe to the philosophy of the "The ends justify the means"" I'm not sure what "end" you have in mind???  

For the most part society has grown up. There are a few rotton people for sure, but for the most part people are tolerant, tolerant of races, gender, age, political stances, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, cultures.
Certainly where I come from people are generally kind and tolerant. Governments have become secular.

 I am not trying to make it seem like a fairytale, you do have to lock up your house, lock the car, not respond to any get rich quick schemes, not walk down dark alleys alone. But the majority of the people are generally OK.

[JoeBobSmith]

 I 'm not sure there is any

[karadan]

Stevil, have you ever been to a place where the elderly stay?
It's not hard to make people wish for death.

What?

Talk about missing the point.

[LegendarySandwich]

I think iSok is right in one sense. Old people's homes in the west and the way old people are treated is enough to make them want to end their lives. All things being equal this should not be the case. If a person wants to end their life because they are facing an end they find intolerable they should be allowed to. If they want to end their life because they have laid in their own waste for the umpteenth time that is a disgrace.

[Emphasis mine]
You're probably right, here. It should not be the case -- but does that mean we shouldn't allow them to commit suicide?

[iSok]

Stevil, have you ever been to a place where the elderly stay?
It's not hard to make people wish for death.

What?

Talk about missing the point.

EDIT: Thanks for notifying Fester. Kardan, I found it an interesting topic to talk about.

Stevil mentioned that Euthanasie should be applied in society if people prefer this.
As you already know, I'm against euthanasie, because I see that in some context, people will be forced to do it.
Let me give you a few examples:


Most elderly, see themselves as a burden. A lot of times when their offspring offers them a place in their own house, they refuse.
They don't want to be a burden for their sons or daughters. This is one point.

Just think about the social pressure.
If something controversial as euthanasie will be viewed as something common, then the social pressure will be devastating.
Elderly who do not want to put an end to their life, will still be troubled.
And this will happen, because of social pressure:

Nurses: 'Why doesn't Miss X put an end to it, her treatment is just too hard, why does she desperately want to prolong her life?'.

This will certainly happen, if euthanasie becomes common, some elderly will put an end to it, because of peer-pressure.
They will view themselves as a burden, and euthanasie will be the way-out.
(Believe me if I say that the nurses in an elderly home are not very nice for their patients..............)

Next to that, human judgement is not infallible. Sometimes when we are terribly ill, we wish for death to stop the pain.
But when we are cured, we regret those words, and shiver by the thoughts of it.

Last, I think man is a very weak creature.
Just to think about world war 2, how easy man can be indoctrinated by just repeating a certain message.
The Jews were seen as filth, within a few years, some people were okay with their genocide.

In the seventies, there was a live experiment at Stanford University with students.
The students were all good friends, they were divided into two groups.
One group of them were guards, the other group were prisoners.
They simulated prison life, and they wanted to know what happens when man gets to power.

They had to stop the experiment just after 3 days, because the guards became too dangerous...
In 3 days, most of the 'prisoner'  friends did not recognize any longer their friends (who were the guards).
There is a movie about this, you should really watch: "Das Experiment"

So, just imagine what will happen when some people get to judge between life and death.
Do understand that we as humans are extremely weak Kardan, we are capable to do the most terrible things..
During Stalin, children would betray their own parents when they would talk ill of Stalin....

I have just a lot of concerns about issues like this. I am just afraid we will lose our humanity. (Movie: The Island)
We humans do not have the capacities to make these choices, in order to do this we might need to 'evolve'.
Time after time we are shown that we really turn into monsters because of the strangest things.
If we apply euthanasie, we can only believe that we are doing it right.
And belief is not enough when you are talking about life and death.

Surely, cancer or other painful diseases are a very hard way to leave this world.
But, most cancer-patients do not really suffer, they are most of the time high because of painkillers.

Maybe we should do more research in this way, to ease the suffering instead of giving up.
I think this is more applicable to our concept of 'being a human', to challenge and subject everything, instead of giving up.

1. So, to my point, muslims pilgrimage to the same place the idol-worshipping Arabs used to pilgrimage before Islam.2. It was very convenient that Muhammad's new religion didn't upset the trade in the area by making this pilgrimage one of the pillars of his religion. 3. And certainly, Muhammad himself was an idol-worshipper before Islam because his tribe took the control of Kaba before his birth. They even displaced it.

1. You are right, Muslims still visit the Ka'Ba, in the way it was visited before idol-worship.
2. No you are wrong, it did upset the trade, once Islam came, it had not many followers and all the pagan tribes stayed way. This meant the end of trade.
3. No you are wrong, his tribe was in control of the Ka'Ba. But rejecting the idols was not a tribal affair. Multiple people from different tribes rejected these idols. So among different tribes, there were people
    that rejected these idols. And among the Quraish (the Prophet's tribe) the Prophet was one of those that rejected idol-worship before his prophethood.
   While his uncle Abu Talib was dying, he tried to convince him that there was just One God.

[Tank]

I think iSok is right in one sense. Old people's homes in the west and the way old people are treated is enough to make them want to end their lives. All things being equal this should not be the case. If a person wants to end their life because they are facing an end they find intolerable they should be allowed to. If they want to end their life because they have laid in their own waste for the umpteenth time that is a disgrace.

[Emphasis mine]
You're probably right, here. It should not be the case -- but does that mean we shouldn't allow them to commit suicide?

Technically no. But ethically as a comment on the societies we live in it would be a sorry indictment upon everybody else in that society that they would want to.

[Stevil]

Maybe we should do more research in this way, to ease the suffering instead of giving up.
I think this is more applicable to our concept of 'being a human', to challenge and subject everything, instead of giving up.

The goal is to stop unnecessary human suffering, not to kill people, so you have a good point. I do feel that you are biased against killing people though, so would find euthanasia a difficult answer to accept should the findings turn out that way.

If such a study is done I would say we need atheists to do the study, they have no bias towards or away from the euthanasia option. If the study was performed by theists then we would never get the euthanasia option even if the alternative was poor.

I would not agree that doping someone up to the hilt with drugs (morphine or the like) for months or years at a time (to the point that they are non functional) is a satisfactory alternative.

Of course proper processes and saftey nets need to be in place, but I don't think we should "give up" on the idea of euthanasia.

[iSok]

Maybe we should do more research in this way, to ease the suffering instead of giving up.
I think this is more applicable to our concept of 'being a human', to challenge and subject everything, instead of giving up.

The goal is to stop unnecessary human suffering, not to kill people, so you have a good point. I do feel that you are biased against killing people though, so would find euthanasia a difficult answer to accept should the findings turn out that way.

If such a study is done I would say we need atheists to do the study, they have no bias towards or away from the euthanasia option. If the study was performed by theists then we would never get the euthanasia option even if the alternative was poor.

I would not agree that doping someone up to the hilt with drugs (morphine or the like) for months or years at a time (to the point that they are non functional) is a satisfactory alternative.

Of course proper processes and saftey nets need to be in place, but I don't think we should "give up" on the idea of euthanasia.

Well, many cancer patients do not suffer much, if they do, it's only in their last days or maybe weeks.
Cancer finishes pretty fast once it's not controlled.
My grandma suffered from stomach cancer, she was most of the time tired. One evening she was out with my two uncles, feeding the cows outside.
When she came back, healthy and well, she felt a bit tired and lay down. My uncle gave her a few morphine shots and within two hours she breathed her last breath peacefully.
(She died in southern-Afghanistan...with no modern medical facilities).

My central point of argument is:
Man is too weak (and too sinister...) to decide about issues like this, it has already been proven by studies and history.