God cannot exist...sue me!

[Davin]

[...]He knows every individual, not because He programmed each a certain way, but because He knows the YOU that is YOU.

So god did not create everything?

Everything but free will.  God cannot create free will.  He gives the ability to think and choose for oneself.

This god gives the ability of free will, but did not create it? How can a god give a person free will without creating free will?

Here is another problem with trying to maintain that everyone has free will with a god that knows everything and created everything: if god is omniscient and created everything, then how can you say that this god designed everything (including everyone and what makes them them, which includes what choices they'll make), but did not program everything?

It's as difficult as YOU make it seem or think it is.  It's not difficult to understand at all.  God created everything.  His design of the human body works.  His design of the human brain works.  He designed into the brain, cognition.  He could've "programmed" the brain, but He didn't.  We are able to think, reason, interpret, ponder...and ultimately choose between what we see, hear, feel, think...all of our senses define each individual's choice.  WE make our choices.

Despite that you're attributing things to a god without a shred of evidence to support it, I'll go along with it for a little while. Maybe this god programmed you to merely think there is free will. Saying that a god knows everything you do before you do it is contradictory to you having the free will to choose a different action.

This god could have done things differently and I might have been a believer in god, but chose instead to make sure I was not a believer in god. I'm how this god intended me to be and could be no different. You cannot suppose that a god knows everything a person will choose, while having created the person, and then say that this god had not programmed the person. This is contradictory logic.

What is contradictory is to say you don't have choice.  Have you not delved as deeply as YOU WANT to find truth?  YOU have chosen what, when, where, for how long...you search for anything and by THAT you make your choices.  The fact remains, YOU can choose God.  You are not dead yet.  There is still time and time may make the difference.  God knows when, where, how you will die and He knows in what camp of belief you will be in.  The choice is still up to you here and now.  God's knowledge of that day does not cement you today.  When you die, your ability to choose dies with you.  Your fate, if you will, is sealed at death.

If this god created everything to be as it is, and this god knew what it was doing when it created everything, while adding on that this god knows everything you will do, does not support your argument for free will. If this god knows me and chose to make everything as it is, then I have no free will because I am as this god designed me and the things I base my decisions on are as this god designed them. Unless you're proposing that this god is not all knowing and/or did not create everything to be as it is.

[AnimatedDirt]

This god gives the ability of free will, but did not create it? How can a god give a person free will without creating free will?

It's a by-product of free thinking.  One can think freely, but without the ability to choose otherwise, free will does not exist.  Kind of like a person in prison.  He/she wants freedom, freedom exists, but he/she cannot have it, cannot enjoy it, cannot choose it.  Free will, like love, cannot be created, but simply exists when freedom to choose exists.

Despite that you're attributing things to a god without a shred of evidence to support it, I'll go along with it for a little while. Maybe this god programmed you to merely think there is free will. Saying that a god knows everything you do before you do it is contradictory to you having the free will to choose a different action.

I've never claimed to be able to prove God.  It's not possible without God showing Himself.  Until then, I suppose you're right, I have no shred of evidence for God (except for prophecy fulfilled in the scriptures that at least give some evidence to a higher power, but I'm not necessarily here to prove that anyway)

Saying God knows what I do before I do it is not contradictory at all.  You have yet to prove that.  You asked if God foreknew you would drink a coke, could you drink something else?  I said, of course you could drink something else, but YOU CHOSE Coke!  God's knowledge of what you will do does not force you to do it.  All the choices are yours and yours alone.  It's not contradictory at all.  Not in the least.

If this god created everything to be as it is, and this god knew what it was doing when it created everything, while adding on that this god knows everything you will do, does not support your argument for free will.

Absolutely it supports it.  In fact, it down-right SUPPORTS IT.  If God created you and me and in the process of creating us He saw I would choose Him and you would not, what would you say if He instead decided to quit creating you and move on to the next?  That is removal of free will!  Not allowing you to live because you don't choose God?  You have free will and while God knows YOUR CHOICE, He gives you life.  As it says in scripture;

color=#0080FF]"]"You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor* and hate your enemy.'  But I tell you: Love your enemies* and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.[/color]

One cannot say that God directs anyone to follow Him.  No one can say that His followers prosper more than those that curse Him.  If He had discontinued in creating you, then He would be guilty of "stacking the deck".  Being unfair.  But His fairness dictates that He finish creating and allowing each person to become the YOU that you will be ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN CHOOSING.

If this god knows me and chose to make everything as it is, then I have no free will because I am as this god designed me and the things I base my decisions on are as this god designed them. Unless you're proposing that this god is not all knowing and/or did not create everything to be as it is.

What I propose and what the scripture teaches is that everything that God made in the beginning was good.  I would say it was perfect as anything God does that is good, by definition, is perfect.  God created everything and it prospered for who knows how long...until sin came into the picture.  According to the scriptures, it seems sin came in relatively quick, but we cannot know exactly how long that was.  It really makes no difference.  The point is that God made it all to work perfectly, but when sin came in, it skewed creation.  Think of the movies, "Back to the Future".   Going back and changing one thing can have catastrophic implications on the future and the future that "you" came from will now be different.  Sin entered and changed things.  Did God know it would?  Yes, but again, to change the future in order to control it, is against the idea of free will.  You would have to study some on the implications of original sin, what the work of Satan is in regards to his falling away...but that's WAY beyond what we are speaking of here.  Suffice to say, the crude analogy of the movies, "Back to the Future", fit.

[Davin]

This god gives the ability of free will, but did not create it? How can a god give a person free will without creating free will?

It's a by-product of free thinking.  One can think freely, but without the ability to choose otherwise, free will does not exist.  Kind of like a person in prison.  He/she wants freedom, freedom exists, but he/she cannot have it, cannot enjoy it, cannot choose it.  Free will, like love, cannot be created, but simply exists when freedom to choose exists.

So this god did not create everything.

Despite that you're attributing things to a god without a shred of evidence to support it, I'll go along with it for a little while. Maybe this god programmed you to merely think there is free will. Saying that a god knows everything you do before you do it is contradictory to you having the free will to choose a different action.

I've never claimed to be able to prove God.  It's not possible without God showing Himself.  Until then, I suppose you're right, I have no shred of evidence for God (except for prophecy fulfilled in the scriptures that at least give some evidence to a higher power, but I'm not necessarily here to prove that anyway)

Then don't make statements based on mere assertions as if they are facts.

Saying God knows what I do before I do it is not contradictory at all.  You have yet to prove that.  You asked if God foreknew you would drink a coke, could you drink something else?  I said, of course you could drink something else, but YOU CHOSE Coke!  God's knowledge of what you will do does not force you to do it.  All the choices are yours and yours alone.  It's not contradictory at all.  Not in the least.

If this god fourteen billion years ago sees that tomorrow you will choose to kick a rock while walking, can you choose to do something else that this god did not see? How many different choices do you have available after this god knows what you will do? You really have only two options that are not contradictory: the god does not know everything or you can only perform the actions this god knows you will perform. When you can only perform one action, there is no free will, because as many other options you may think you have, you can only do the one thing the god knows you will do. So free will in your scenario is just an illusion.

If this god created everything to be as it is, and this god knew what it was doing when it created everything, while adding on that this god knows everything you will do, does not support your argument for free will.

Absolutely it supports it.  In fact, it down-right SUPPORTS IT.  If God created you and me and in the process of creating us He saw I would choose Him and you would not, what would you say if He instead decided to quit creating you and move on to the next?  That is removal of free will!  Not allowing you to live because you don't choose God?  You have free will and while God knows YOUR CHOICE, He gives you life.  As it says in scripture;

color=#0080FF]"]"You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor* and hate your enemy.'  But I tell you: Love your enemies* and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.[/color]

This verse does not say how one can have free will while god know the exact choice you will make. I can't find anything in this verse that has anything to do with what we're talking about.

One cannot say that God directs anyone to follow Him.  No one can say that His followers prosper more than those that curse Him.  If He had discontinued in creating you, then He would be guilty of "stacking the deck".  Being unfair.  But His fairness dictates that He finish creating and allowing each person to become the YOU that you will be ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN CHOOSING.

According to how this god designed me and the world of which I make my decisions, knowing exactly how I would be when this god created everything and creating everything so that I would be this way.

If this god knows me and chose to make everything as it is, then I have no free will because I am as this god designed me and the things I base my decisions on are as this god designed them. Unless you're proposing that this god is not all knowing and/or did not create everything to be as it is.

What I propose and what the scripture teaches is that everything that God made in the beginning was good.  I would say it was perfect as anything God does that is good, by definition, is perfect.  God created everything and it prospered for who knows how long...until sin came into the picture.  According to the scriptures, it seems sin came in relatively quick, but we cannot know exactly how long that was.  It really makes no difference.  The point is that God made it all to work perfectly, but when sin came in, it skewed creation.  Think of the movies, "Back to the Future".   Going back and changing one thing can have catastrophic implications on the future and the future that "you" came from will now be different.  Sin entered and changed things.  Did God know it would?  Yes, but again, to change the future in order to control it, is against the idea of free will.  You would have to study some on the implications of original sin, what the work of Satan is in regards to his falling away...but that's WAY beyond what we are speaking of here.  Suffice to say, the crude analogy of the movies, "Back to the Future", fit.

So this omniscient god did not see that sin would happen?

[AnimatedDirt]

So this god did not create everything.

He did not create that which is not something that is createable.

Then don't make statements based on mere assertions as if they are facts.

Where is your fact that God does not exist?  Show me the proof.  I'm sure all Atheists/Atheism would like to know there is no more need for a Spectrum of Theistic Probability.

If this god fourteen billion years ago sees that tomorrow you will choose to kick a rock while walking, can you choose to do something else that this god did not see?

Yes.  You can choose to do something else.  The fact of the matter is that YOU CHOSE to kick a rock.

How many different choices do you have available after this god knows what you will do?

Your choices are numerous...one might say, infinite.

You really have only two options that are not contradictory: the god does not know everything or you can only perform the actions this god knows you will perform.

Wrong.  YOU CHOOSE.  It is your choice.  The fact that God knows YOUR CHOICE is not that God forces YOUR CHOICE.

When you can only perform one action, there is no free will, because as many other options you may think you have, you can only do the one thing the god knows you will do. So free will in your scenario is just an illusion.

Wrong again, my friend.  The choice is YOURS to make and YOU choose what YOU want.  God simply has the knowledge of what YOUR FREE WILL choice is.  You can choose ANYTHING YOU want.  It remains, it is YOUR CHOICE and thus, free will.

This verse does not say how one can have free will while god know the exact choice you will make. I can't find anything in this verse that has anything to do with what we're talking about.

That's because you don't see the point that God allows ALL to live and choose freely, not favoring any, but allowing all to choose.  The sun rises on both the "evil" and the good.  It rains on both the "evil" and the good.  THAT's what the verse says.  It's the implications of free will and how God allows everyone to live according to their own mind.

According to how this god designed me and the world of which I make my decisions, knowing exactly how I would be when this god created everything and creating everything so that I would be this way.

The way you live is your choice.  If God is and there is life everlasting, you have freely chosen to be excluded.  It is of your own free will.

So this omniscient god did not see that sin would happen?

Have you not read what I wrote?  It's no wonder you can't understand.  You skim over and don't read.  Yes, God knew and for the exact reason I wrote to which you replied, He allowed it to go as "destiny" would have it, but in order to reconcile those that would choose Him, He made a legal way to be reconciled.  A fair way.  A way in which no one can say, "God made me..."  It is by free will we choose our path and the reconcilliation is a gift...free to anyone that will.  Nothing must be done.  All that is needed to be done, is done already.  To go on would be preaching.

[xSilverPhinx]

I think this discussion is the perfect example of compartmentalization. The concepts of omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence just aren't communicating with eachother.  

[Davin]

So this god did not create everything.

He did not create that which is not something that is createable.

How do you know free will not creatable?

Then don't make statements based on mere assertions as if they are facts.

Where is your fact that God does not exist?  Show me the proof.  I'm sure all Atheists/Atheism would like to know there is no more need for a Spectrum of Theistic Probability.

So because you're trying to elevate mere assertion to the level of facts, you want me to commit the same illogical mistake? I say colloquially that god does not exist in the same way I say that dancing waffles do not exist. Unless someone can provide some evidence for dancing waffles I have no reason to accept that they exist, and if someone said that dancing waffles are everywhere and I've yet to see any evidence of them, then the version of dancing waffles that are everywhere do not exist. Because in the case of something that is supposed to be everywhere, the absense of evidence is evidence for absence. The same applies to any god. To make any exceptions is just special pleading.

If this god fourteen billion years ago sees that tomorrow you will choose to kick a rock while walking, can you choose to do something else that this god did not see?

Yes.  You can choose to do something else.  The fact of the matter is that YOU CHOSE to kick a rock.

How can you tell that you choose to kick the rock and you weren't programmed to do exactly as this god knows you will do and designed you to do?

How many different choices do you have available after this god knows what you will do?

Your choices are numerous...one might say, infinite.

No, the choices are not infinite, because there is only thing one can choose. If one chooses something that this god did not know they would choose then the god is not omniscient. If the person can't choose something other than what the god knows the person will choose then there's no free will.

You really have only two options that are not contradictory: the god does not know everything or you can only perform the actions this god knows you will perform.

Wrong.  YOU CHOOSE.  It is your choice.  The fact that God knows YOUR CHOICE is not that God forces YOUR CHOICE.

So you choose the logically contradictory option, I see that logic is not important to you.

When you can only perform one action, there is no free will, because as many other options you may think you have, you can only do the one thing the god knows you will do. So free will in your scenario is just an illusion.

Wrong again, my friend.  The choice is YOURS to make and YOU choose what YOU want.  God simply has the knowledge of what YOUR FREE WILL choice is.  You can choose ANYTHING YOU want.  It remains, it is YOUR CHOICE and thus, free will.

If you can only choose what the god knows you will choose, then you can only make one choice and there is no free will. No matter how many times you attempt to assert otherwise, your logic is contradictory.

This verse does not say how one can have free will while god know the exact choice you will make. I can't find anything in this verse that has anything to do with what we're talking about.

That's because you don't see the point that God allows ALL to live and choose freely, not favoring any, but allowing all to choose.  The sun rises on both the "evil" and the good.  It rains on both the "evil" and the good.  THAT's what the verse says.  It's the implications of free will and how God allows everyone to live according to their own mind.

Ok, it rains on both good an evil, what does this have to do with the logically contradictory concepts of free will and only having one path to follow? If you have to spend time explaining what the verse means and interpret it and not take it literally, then why post the verse that is essentially useless to quote? In the Religious exclamation thread you stated that religious things must be considered literally, but now you're not taking a verse from the bible literally. Again you're not very consistent.

According to how this god designed me and the world of which I make my decisions, knowing exactly how I would be when this god created everything and creating everything so that I would be this way.

The way you live is your choice.  If God is and there is life everlasting, you have freely chosen to be excluded.  It is of your own free will.

Not if god designed everything while knowing exactly what I'll do if he did it this way or that way.

So this omniscient god did not see that sin would happen?

Have you not read what I wrote?  It's no wonder you can't understand.  You skim over and don't read.  Yes, God knew and for the exact reason I wrote to which you replied, He allowed it to go as "destiny" would have it, but in order to reconcile those that would choose Him, He made a legal way to be reconciled.  A fair way.  A way in which no one can say, "God made me..."  It is by free will we choose our path and the reconcilliation is a gift...free to anyone that will.  Nothing must be done.  All that is needed to be done, is done already.  To go on would be preaching.

So god created everything with the intention of allowing sin.

[AnimatedDirt]

How do you know free will not creatable?

How do you know it is?

So because you're trying to elevate mere assertion to the level of facts, you want me to commit the same illogical mistake? I say colloquially that god does not exist in the same way I say that dancing waffles do not exist. Unless someone can provide some evidence for dancing waffles I have no reason to accept that they exist, and if someone said that dancing waffles are everywhere and I've yet to see any evidence of them, then the version of dancing waffles that are everywhere do not exist. Because in the case of something that is supposed to be everywhere, the absense of evidence is evidence for absence. The same applies to any god. To make any exceptions is just special pleading.

[youtube:1v0n4qup]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDU0CTDMk2g[/youtube:1v0n4qup]
There.  You are proven wrong.  No more assertions.

How can you tell that you choose to kick the rock and you weren't programmed to do exactly as this god knows you will do and designed you to do?

How can you tell if you're actually choosing to participate in this discussion?

If you can only choose what the god knows you will choose, then you can only make one choice and there is no free will. No matter how many times you attempt to assert otherwise, your logic is contradictory.

Wrong.  YOU CHOOSE WHAT YOU CHOOSE.  God simply knows your choice.  You have many choices to choose from.
You're wrong, it's not contradictory.

Ok, it rains on both good an evil, what does this have to do with the logically contradictory concepts of free will and only having one path to follow? If you have to spend time explaining what the verse means and interpret it and not take it literally, then why post the verse that is essentially useless to quote? In the Religious exclamation thread you stated that religious things must be considered literally, but now you're not taking a verse from the bible literally. Again you're not very consistent.

If you can't see the point in it yet, it's not worth having to explain to one with "higher intelligence" things of elementary intelligence.

Not if god designed everything while knowing exactly what I'll do if he did it this way or that way.

Deny it as much as you want.  YOU know you are choosing to disbelieve in God.  YOU have studied and weighed the evidence and YOU believe there is more evidence that suggests God is a myth.  YOUR CHOICE.

So god created everything with the intention of allowing sin.

God created everything NOT INTENDING sin would enter, but KNOWING sin would enter.  If one sets out to create a free will'd being (freedom of choice) the possibility that this entity will choose otherwise (other than the Creator would want) is real and unavoidable without "stacking the deck".

[Davin]

How do you know free will not creatable?

How do you know it is?

I do not, but I'm also not making a claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

So because you're trying to elevate mere assertion to the level of facts, you want me to commit the same illogical mistake? I say colloquially that god does not exist in the same way I say that dancing waffles do not exist. Unless someone can provide some evidence for dancing waffles I have no reason to accept that they exist, and if someone said that dancing waffles are everywhere and I've yet to see any evidence of them, then the version of dancing waffles that are everywhere do not exist. Because in the case of something that is supposed to be everywhere, the absense of evidence is evidence for absence. The same applies to any god. To make any exceptions is just special pleading.

[youtube:78wze48c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDU0CTDMk2g[/youtube:78wze48c]
There.  You are proven wrong.  No more assertions.

If you're going to equate your god to being as real as a cartoon animated waffle, then go right ahead.

How can you tell that you choose to kick the rock and you weren't programmed to do exactly as this god knows you will do and designed you to do?

How can you tell if you're actually choosing to participate in this discussion?

Answer the question.

If you can only choose what the god knows you will choose, then you can only make one choice and there is no free will. No matter how many times you attempt to assert otherwise, your logic is contradictory.

Wrong.  YOU CHOOSE WHAT YOU CHOOSE.  God simply knows your choice.  You have many choices to choose from.
You're wrong, it's not contradictory.

As many times as you claim that I'm wrong, you've yet to demonstrate that a god that knows excatly what you will do, has given you free will. You have no choices so long as this god knows exactly what you will do.

Ok, it rains on both good an evil, what does this have to do with the logically contradictory concepts of free will and only having one path to follow? If you have to spend time explaining what the verse means and interpret it and not take it literally, then why post the verse that is essentially useless to quote? In the Religious exclamation thread you stated that religious things must be considered literally, but now you're not taking a verse from the bible literally. Again you're not very consistent.

If you can't see the point in it yet, it's not worth having to explain to one with "higher intelligence" things of elementary intelligence.

Quoting an unrelated verse from the bible was a really bad idea. I don't think you should do that again.

Not if god designed everything while knowing exactly what I'll do if he did it this way or that way.

Deny it as much as you want.  YOU know you are choosing to disbelieve in God.  YOU have studied and weighed the evidence and YOU believe there is more evidence that suggests God is a myth.  YOUR CHOICE.

Really now, and where did you get this information from? I'd really like to know, because it is very wrong.

So god created everything with the intention of allowing sin.

God created everything NOT INTENDING sin would enter, but KNOWING sin would enter.  If one sets out to create a free will'd being (freedom of choice) the possibility that this entity will choose otherwise (other than the Creator would want) is real and unavoidable without "stacking the deck".

So sin happened as this god knew sin would happen when it created the universe this way and allowed it to happen... how is that different from intending to allow sin?

[AnimatedDirt]

How do you know free will not creatable?

How do you know it is?

I do not, but I'm also not making a claim, so the burden of proof is on you.[/quote]
I'm of lower intelligence.  I'm likely not able to prove free will is non-creatable.  I suppose it falls under the same proof as "unalienable rights".  Shall we have that removed?

If you're going to equate your god to being as real as a cartoon animated waffle, then go right ahead.

You equated God to a cartoon, not me.   I simply proved you wrong.  So likewise, if you were wrong about dancing waffles, there's a good chance you're wrong about God.

Answer the question.

You can't see that I've answered this question numerous times?  Because the choice was made by the entity with freedom to choose.  It could've kicked a pebble, a stone, a piece of bark, a fallen branch...anything.  The fact is that IT CHOSE to kick a rock.

As many times as you claim that I'm wrong, you've yet to demonstrate that a god that knows excatly what you will do, has given you free will. You have no choices so long as this god knows exactly what you will do.

Are you denying the freedom you have to choose?  The point that you are able to defy the Almighty is testament to the fact that you contain within you the ability to freely choose.  How many dictators do you know that are/were kind enough to allow people to choose what they wanted?  More illogical thinking, IMHO.  "What you don't want to pay taxes?  Oh, ok.  Nevermind.  Live and enjoy my kingdom at no cost to you because you choose..."  Yes...that's logical.

Quoting an unrelated verse from the bible was a really bad idea. I don't think you should do that again.

What is a bad idea is not paying attention to the points and examples brought into the discussion and then claiming its a bad idea because "you don't see the relation...".  To understand it, you would only need to go back and read.

Really now, and where did you get this information from? I'd really like to know, because it is very wrong.

Wrong?  Ok, so now you believe God exists.  Fine.  I suppose this discussion is over between you and I as there is no more debate.

So sin happened as this god knew sin would happen when it created the universe this way and allowed it to happen... how is that different from intending to allow sin?

I suppose it is much like we ourselves made the Shuttle, for instance.  Did the makers intend it to explode and kill 9 (was it 9?)  Or is there always an element of human error in making something?  Likewise, God intended for His creation to take a certain path.  He knew it wouldn't because to do otherwise would be not give full freedom of choice.  There was the element of human error.  If you can't understand that...we are wasting a lot of time.

[Davin]

How do you know it is?

I do not, but I'm also not making a claim, so the burden of proof is on you.

I'm of lower intelligence.  I'm likely not able to prove free will is non-creatable.  I suppose it falls under the same proof as "unalienable rights".  Shall we have that removed?

"unalienable rights" are what we created, however as has been shown on many occasions, they are in fact alienable.

If you're going to equate your god to being as real as a cartoon animated waffle, then go right ahead.

You equated God to a cartoon, not me.   I simply proved you wrong.  So likewise, if you were wrong about dancing waffles, there's a good chance you're wrong about God.

So because there is a cartoon of dancing waffles, I may also be wrong about a cartoon of god?

Answer the question.

You can't see that I've answered this question numerous times?  Because the choice was made by the entity with freedom to choose.  It could've kicked a pebble, a stone, a piece of bark, a fallen branch...anything.  The fact is that IT CHOSE to kick a rock.

You could not do anything else, because the god already knew what you would do.

As many times as you claim that I'm wrong, you've yet to demonstrate that a god that knows excatly what you will do, has given you free will. You have no choices so long as this god knows exactly what you will do.

Are you denying the freedom you have to choose?  The point that you are able to defy the Almighty is testament to the fact that you contain within you the ability to freely choose.  How many dictators do you know that are/were kind enough to allow people to choose what they wanted?  More illogical thinking, IMHO.  "What you don't want to pay taxes?  Oh, ok.  Nevermind.  Live and enjoy my kingdom at no cost to you because you choose..."  Yes...that's logical.

I would appreciate it if you addressed my points.

Quoting an unrelated verse from the bible was a really bad idea. I don't think you should do that again.

What is a bad idea is not paying attention to the points and examples brought into the discussion and then claiming its a bad idea because "you don't see the relation...".  To understand it, you would only need to go back and read.

I did read, it had no relevance.

Really now, and where did you get this information from? I'd really like to know, because it is very wrong.

Wrong?  Ok, so now you believe God exists.  Fine.  I suppose this discussion is over between you and I as there is no more debate.

Yes you are wrong, as well as I do not believe that a god exists. My world view is not based around my lack of belief in a god, my lack of belief in a god is a result of my world view.

So sin happened as this god knew sin would happen when it created the universe this way and allowed it to happen... how is that different from intending to allow sin?

I suppose it is much like we ourselves made the Shuttle, for instance.  Did the makers intend it to explode and kill 9 (was it 9?)  Or is there always an element of human error in making something?

So god is subject to the same kind of human error as humans are?

Likewise, God intended for His creation to take a certain path.  He knew it wouldn't because to do otherwise would be not give full freedom of choice.  There was the element of human error.  If you can't understand that...we are wasting a lot of time.

So humans did something that this god did not know they would do? My point still stands. Either this god was ignorant that sin would enter or he intended it to enter. The only way that would be a false dichotomy is if this god were not all powerful and/or all knowing.

[AnimatedDirt]

unalienable rights" are what we created, however as has been shown on many occasions, they are in fact alienable.

Certainly there are those that debate or are debating this.

So because there is a cartoon of dancing waffles, I may also be wrong about a cartoon of god?

That too.

You could not do anything else, because the god already knew what you would do.

God only knows what we will CHOOSE.  The choice is yours to make.  You can choose anything you want, it's your choice.  I can choose any that I want.

I would appreciate it if you addressed my points.

State them.

I did read, it had no relevance.

It does.  I'm sure you can decipher it.

Yes you are wrong, as well as I do not believe that a god exists. My world view is not based around my lack of belief in a god, my lack of belief in a god is a result of my world view.

Talk about circular argument.  Fine.  You're an Atheist.  Changes nothing really, it's still part of your worldview.

So god is subject to the same kind of human error as humans are?

I'm beginning to understand.  You read what you want to read.  Let me say it again in English.  Human Error.
God made a perfect being given the ability to choose of its own free will.  Therein lies the POTENTIAL for that being to er.

Likewise, God intended for His creation to take a certain path.  He knew it wouldn't because to do otherwise would be not give full freedom of choice.  There was the element of human error.  If you can't understand that...we are wasting a lot of time.

So humans did something that this god did not know they would do? My point still stands. Either this god was ignorant that sin would enter or he intended it to enter. The only way that would be a false dichotomy is if this god were not all powerful and/or all knowing.

I'm going to refrain from answering how I'm inclined to because I value my stay here at HAF.

Let me throw it out there again and maybe this time it will be a little more plain.  Assuming you don't believe God exists, for arguments sake;

1.  God makes Man (human).
2.  God makes Man perfectly.
3.  God gives Man the ability to choose freely.
4.  Man eventually chooses to go against God.

If God is Man's Creator, is it not human error to go against God, God being the Sustainer of life?  
The design is not wrong.  The design works fine.  The body and brain work fine.  It's the freedom of choice that has sent the human off.  The human has decided to go against his Creator.  Is it thus God's fault that the human CHOSE to disbelieve?  I can see on one small scale that *YOU could say since God gave Man free will, it is God's fault.  I would give a hesitant, "yes" to that as God did give him free will and because of free will, Man was able to choose against his Creator.  The thing God does not do, is force any choice.  His foreknowledge of that choice is not dictating what that choice is.  It is simply the knowledge of.

[Davin]

unalienable rights" are what we created, however as has been shown on many occasions, they are in fact alienable.

Certainly there are those that debate or are debating this.

So, after this short diversion, you don't know if free will can't be created.

So because there is a cartoon of dancing waffles, I may also be wrong about a cartoon of god?

That too.

So god is as real as a man made cartoon, gotcha.

You could not do anything else, because the god already knew what you would do.

God only knows what we will CHOOSE.  The choice is yours to make.  You can choose anything you want, it's your choice.  I can choose any that I want.

This god upon creating everything knew exactly how everything would go including every single choice you will make, if the god made things differently then you'd make different choices, how is this different than god controlling your actions? Remember that once this god knows you will do something, you cannot do anything else.

I would appreciate it if you addressed my points.

State them.

As many times as you claim that I'm wrong, you've yet to demonstrate that a god that knows excatly what you will do, has given you free will. You have no choices so long as this god knows exactly what you will do.

I did read, it had no relevance.

It does.  I'm sure you can decipher it.

Nope, no relevance. A god making it rain on people has nothing to do with free will.

Yes you are wrong, as well as I do not believe that a god exists. My world view is not based around my lack of belief in a god, my lack of belief in a god is a result of my world view.

Talk about circular argument.  Fine.  You're an Atheist.  Changes nothing really, it's still part of your worldview.

No, being an atheist is not part of my world view just as not believing in dancing waffles is not part of my world view. That is if we're talking about a how we view the world. My world view is based on evidence and rational thinking. The things I accept, that I'm undecided on and deny come from that.

So god is subject to the same kind of human error as humans are?

I'm beginning to understand.  You read what you want to read.  Let me say it again in English.  Human Error.
God made a perfect being given the ability to choose of its own free will.  Therein lies the POTENTIAL for that being to er.

I asked, "So sin happened as this god knew sin would happen when it created the universe this way and allowed it to happen... how is that different from intending to allow sin?" to which you responded, "I suppose it is much like we ourselves made the Shuttle, for instance. Did the makers intend it to explode and kill 9 (was it 9?) Or is there always an element of human error in making something?"

I asked how knowing something would happen and not doing anything to prevent it from happening while creating the things that would make it happen were any different from intending it to happen. You responded with saying that the shuttle designers did not intend their shuttle to blow up. So your answer to how it was different than god intending sin to enter the universe was to bring up human error. Making it a reasonable conclusion that you meant that god made a mistake and that sin was not intentional.

Likewise, God intended for His creation to take a certain path.  He knew it wouldn't because to do otherwise would be not give full freedom of choice.  There was the element of human error.  If you can't understand that...we are wasting a lot of time.

So humans did something that this god did not know they would do? My point still stands. Either this god was ignorant that sin would enter or he intended it to enter. The only way that would be a false dichotomy is if this god were not all powerful and/or all knowing.

I'm going to refrain from answering how I'm inclined to because I value my stay here at HAF.

Let me throw it out there again and maybe this time it will be a little more plain.  Assuming you don't believe God exists, for arguments sake;

1.  God makes Man (human).
2.  God makes Man perfectly.
3.  God gives Man the ability to choose freely.
4.  Man eventually chooses to go against God.

and God saw that it was good.

If God is Man's Creator, is it not human error to go against God, God being the Sustainer of life?

Not in and of itself.

The design is not wrong.  The design works fine.  The body and brain work fine.  It's the freedom of choice that has sent the human off.  The human has decided to go against his Creator.  Is it thus God's fault that the human CHOSE to disbelieve?  I can see on one small scale that *YOU could say since God gave Man free will, it is God's fault.  I would give a hesitant, "yes" to that as God did give him free will and because of free will, Man was able to choose against his Creator.  The thing God does not do, is force any choice.  His foreknowledge of that choice is not dictating what that choice is.  It is simply the knowledge of.

My point still stands. Either this god was ignorant that sin would enter or he intended it to enter or it entered because this god did not have the power to prevent it.

[fester30]

AnimatedDirt and Devin seem to like to go at it an awful lot.  Wouldn't be something if they were the same person just putting on a show for the rest of us?

[Davin]

That is because we are the same person.

If I was though, I think I'd make it quite a bit less boring.

[xSilverPhinx]

A quick question for AnimatedDirt:


How would you define what is "your" choice and how free do you think they are?

(I'm not denying that our choices are our choices and that we shouldn't be responsible for them, but I'm curious as to what your take on this is.)