God cannot exist...sue me!

[GAYtheist]

Fate/destiny/God's Will and Free Will cannot exist with each other. God's will says that what happens happens because it was deemed necessary and made to happen regardless of one's choice, there fore destroying free will. If Free Will exists then God's will is gone because he does not control anything that we do. Make up your mind people.

[TheJackel]

You are attempting to place limits on an Omniscient, boundless, limitless, uncontained, container and sustainer of all things things GOD.. Do you not compute the problem with your argument? You clearly do not comprehend the definition of Omniscience.. It's like you are attempting to invent your own limits and rules to your GOD, and invent your own definition of Omniscience to mean something other than what they are clearly being defined as. Do you even understand that such a GOD could only ever at best be the entire sum total of existence itself?   You are so hung up on the argument of "Choice" that you completely ignore addressing the problem, if fact, you intentionally ignore the very heart of the argument as if it doesn't exist.

Maybe, because I'm a believer and thus of inferior intelligence, you should clarify Omniscience for me.  (sigh)

That is a failed argument.. That's like saying that I believe non-existence in the literal context is a DOG running around my house, and that it exists because it doesn't exist just because I can believe it exists by stringing those words together in a tossed salad. All while ignoring why it's a logical fallacy, and avoiding having to address any argument that addresses the fact that it is. I then have the nerve and pretentiousness to preach it as gospel truth. And in organized religion, to indoctrinate people by preying on their human vulnerabilities, fears, ect into believing it. If you want to believe it, OK.. But coming here to engage in a theological discussion on the subject with the dishonest intent to never actually address the problems with that position is not showing any form of intellectual integrity.

So I will put this in real simple terms:

 The very fact that I exist, or anyone else here exists, will nullify that entire argument of an omniscient, boundless, limitless, container and sustainer of all things, or uncontained GOD. And this just ignores the fact that said GOD would be bound to require information to even have the potential of existing even in a more realistic plausible form.

In regards to free will:

It' would be irrelevant if a GOD existed or not.. Free will would never truly exist.. I could list an infinite number of things that I don't have free will over.. It's best described as restricted will. And just because options exist from which you can choose from does not mean there is a GOD!.. Options exist because there is a whole world around you to choose from! it's a fundamental part about having a consciousness. However your consciousness, or any other for that matter, can not exist without the world to which you exist in, and are apart of! And that includes the very information that makes it all possible.

[AnimatedDirt]

You are attempting to place limits on an Omniscient, boundless, limitless, uncontained, container and sustainer of all things things GOD.. Do you not compute the problem with your argument? You clearly do not comprehend the definition of Omniscience.. It's like you are attempting to invent your own limits and rules to your GOD, and invent your own definition of Omniscience to mean something other than what they are clearly being defined as. Do you even understand that such a GOD could only ever at best be the entire sum total of existence itself?   You are so hung up on the argument of "Choice" that you completely ignore addressing the problem, if fact, you intentionally ignore the very heart of the argument as if it doesn't exist.

Maybe, because I'm a believer and thus of inferior intelligence, you should clarify Omniscience for me.  (sigh)

That is a failed argument.. That's like saying that I believe non-existence in the literal context is a DOG running around my house, and this it exists because it doesn't exist just because I can believe it exists by stringing those words together in a tossed salad. All while ignoring why it's a logical fallacy, and avoiding having to address any argument that addresses the fact that it is. I then have the nerve and pretentiousness to preach it as gospel truth. And in organized religion, to indoctrinate people by preying on their human vulnerabilities, fears, ect into believing it. If you want to believe it, OK.. But coming here to engage in a theological discussion on the subject with the dishonest intent to never actually address the problems with that position is not showing any form of intellectual integrity.

So I will put this in real simple terms:

 The very fact that I exist, or anyone else here exists, will nullify that entire argument of an omniscient, boundless, limitless, container and sustainer of all things, or uncontained GOD. And this just ignores the fact that said GOD would be bound to require information to even have the potential of existing, even in a more realistic plausible form.

In regards to free will:

It' would be irrelevant if a GOD existed or not.. Free will would never truly exist.. I could list an infinite number of things that I don't have free will over.. It's best described as restricted will.

This is your description or definition of Omniscience?

Your free will exists.  You can choose freely.

[Davin]

You can choose whatever you're little heart desires.  It's YOUR CHOICE.

Then I can choose what god doesn't know I'll choose.

You can choose whatever your heart desires to choose.  It's YOUR CHOICE.

Then I choose what god doesn't know I'll choose which means that god is not omniscient.

[TheJackel]

This is your description or definition of Omniscience?

Your free will exists.  You can choose freely.

You have got to be kidding me.. Is this play ignorance day? I think people forgot to tell me it was ignorance day. Is this where we put our minds on a holiday so we don't have to address the argument intellectually and honestly?

Omniscience (pronounced /É'mˈnɪsiÉ™ns/)[1] (or omniscient point-of-view in writing) is the capacity to know everything infinitely, or at least everything that can be known about a character including thoughts, feelings, life and the universe, etc.

I'm feeling Déjà vu here of your inability to address what Omniscience means. This isn't open to your own self invention of what you think it means.

A) An Omniscient GOD that infinitely knows everything infinitely would be impossible
B) An Omniscient GOD that knows everything to which does exist, or is knowable could only ever at best be the entire sum total of existence itself.. AKA the Universe, and whatever might be beyond that. Such perhaps infinite number of other Universes..
C) In either Case, I am as knowable as the rest of existence since I am apart of it.. I am at best GOD under such an argument, and that includes everyone else here!

Now apply the definition of Omniscience to terms like boundless, limitless, uncontained, container and sustainer of all things ect. And the obvious should be glaringly in your face as to why such a GOD is ridiculously impossible! Unless you want to worship existence itself as GOD, and thus be worshiping yourself, and everyone else as GOD, you have no means of a logical attempt at claiming a GOD is "Omniscient".  That includes the birds, the bees, aliens, bacteria, snakes, rabbits, all the atoms in your body, your thoughts, your feelings, your emotions, your own consciousness,  or even the dirt you walk on. You may as well Call existence one Giant Mind that worships itself in the ultimate case of Deluded Narcissism.

And Animated Dirt, this isn't to get you to deny a GOD's existence..It's to get you to realize the type of GOD you believe exists, is literally a logical fallacy.. There may yet be a creator out there, but it's not going to be what you want to believe it to be... And if you watch the video I posted, it's purpose is to get you to realize what's real, and what's fallacy. And it doesn't even go to say there is "NO Creator" of our Universe.. And that is because we in science understand that it's a matter of physics, and that we ourselves could perhaps become Creators of Universes beyond our own, if we haven't already done so unknowingly. And if we were to have created a Universe knowingly, or unknowingly, what does that make us? What would that make us? Would we thus be GODS?

[AnimatedDirt]

Who knows what you wrote...TheJackel

Omniscience is; Omniscience (pronounced /É'mˈnɪsiÉ™ns/)[1] (or omniscient point-of-view in writing) is the capacity to know everything infinitely, or at least everything that can be known about a character including thoughts, feelings, life and the universe, etc. In monotheism, this ability is attributed to God.

I guess I have to answer my own queries and I suppose you, TheJackel cannot understand that your free will exists in that you are free to choose what you will according to your own findings and according to your own mind.  God has given you that ability.  It does not mean you can literally do anything you want that you logically cannot do.

God's omniscience in regard to you is simply the ability to see what choices you will make because He knows you.  He knows YOU and what makes YOU, YOU.  He knows every individual, not because He programmed each a certain way, but because He knows the YOU that is YOU.  He knows what you will choose and why you will choose that.  His knowledge does not limit your choice to a set path because the path is set by YOU.  He simply knows the path.

[Davin]

[...]He knows every individual, not because He programmed each a certain way, but because He knows the YOU that is YOU.

So god did not create everything?

Here is another problem with trying to maintain that everyone has free will with a god that knows everything and created everything: if god is omniscient and created everything, then how can you say that this god designed everything (including everyone and what makes them them, which includes what choices they'll make), but did not program everything?

This god could have done things differently and I might have been a believer in god, but chose instead to make sure I was not a believer in god. I'm how this god intended me to be and could be no different. You cannot suppose that a god knows everything a person will choose, while having created the person, and then say that this god had not programmed the person. This is contradictory logic.

[AnimatedDirt]

[...]He knows every individual, not because He programmed each a certain way, but because He knows the YOU that is YOU.

So god did not create everything?

Everything but free will.  God cannot create free will.  He gives the ability to think and choose for oneself.

Here is another problem with trying to maintain that everyone has free will with a god that knows everything and created everything: if god is omniscient and created everything, then how can you say that this god designed everything (including everyone and what makes them them, which includes what choices they'll make), but did not program everything?

It's as difficult as YOU make it seem or think it is.  It's not difficult to understand at all.  God created everything.  His design of the human body works.  His design of the human brain works.  He designed into the brain, cognition.  He could've "programmed" the brain, but He didn't.  We are able to think, reason, interpret, ponder...and ultimately choose between what we see, hear, feel, think...all of our senses define each individual's choice.  WE make our choices.

This god could have done things differently and I might have been a believer in god, but chose instead to make sure I was not a believer in god. I'm how this god intended me to be and could be no different. You cannot suppose that a god knows everything a person will choose, while having created the person, and then say that this god had not programmed the person. This is contradictory logic.

What is contradictory is to say you don't have choice.  Have you not delved as deeply as YOU WANT to find truth?  YOU have chosen what, when, where, for how long...you search for anything and by THAT you make your choices.  The fact remains, YOU can choose God.  You are not dead yet.  There is still time and time may make the difference.  God knows when, where, how you will die and He knows in what camp of belief you will be in.  The choice is still up to you here and now.  God's knowledge of that day does not cement you today.  When you die, your ability to choose dies with you.  Your fate, if you will, is sealed at death.

[TheJackel]

Who knows what you wrote...TheJackel

Omniscience is; Omniscience (pronounced /É'mˈnɪsiÉ™ns/)[1] (or omniscient point-of-view in writing) is the capacity to know everything infinitely, or at least everything that can be known about a character including thoughts, feelings, life and the universe, etc. In monotheism, this ability is attributed to God.

I guess I have to answer my own queries and I suppose you, TheJackel cannot understand that your free will exists in that you are free to choose what you will according to your own findings and according to your own mind.  God has given you that ability.  It does not mean you can literally do anything you want that you logically cannot do.

God's omniscience in regard to you is simply the ability to see what choices you will make because He knows you.  He knows YOU and what makes YOU, YOU.  He knows every individual, not because He programmed each a certain way, but because He knows the YOU that is YOU.  He knows what you will choose and why you will choose that.  His knowledge does not limit your choice to a set path because the path is set by YOU.  He simply knows the path.

This is essentially intentional ignorance and circle jerking in attempt to circumvent the definition of Omniscience, and how its applied in theology, and in regards to said GODS other supposed attributes.. It's like screaming in desperation to ignore what it means. It's like watching you deny reality over and over again because you can't admit being wrong. And you don't even grasp why your argument completely collapses every attribute given to your supposed "GOD". It's thus not actually omniscient in a theological sense, it just only knowing in a particular subject according to you.. It's like knowing 2+2=4.. lol. You are apparently not able to mentally process what nullifies your entire argument. You ignore it dishonestly, and intentionally.

You may as well be a Flat Earhter telling me the Earth is flat while ignoring why it's not.

[AnimatedDirt]

This is essentially intentional ignorance and circle jerking in attempt to circumvent the definition of Omniscience, and how its applied. It's like screaming in desperation to ignore what it means. It's like watching you deny reality over and over again because you can't admit being wrong. And you don't even grasp why your argument completely collapses every attribute given to your supposed "GOD". It's thus not actually omniscient in a theological sense, it just only knowing in a particular subject according to you.. It's like knowing 2+2=4.. lol. You are apparently not able to mentally process what nullifies your entire argument. You ignore it dishonestly, and intentionally.

Circle jerking?  You keep claiming I'm playing ignorance, yet you haven't defined Omniscience...and now you ADD to it as Theological Omniscience.  On the contrary, I had to go and define it myself.  I've also showed you how you do have the free will to choose and the difference between free will in choosing and free will in doing.  You can choose to accept or reject God.  It is YOUR choice.  You cannot, however, will to be a bird.  That's not logical and not in line with the free will argument.  (You are, however, free to think you're a bird.)

So without going into some rant of lists and thousands of words, define simply what Omniscience is and we can move from there.  It shouldn't be a huge task.  I think a line or two would suffice.

[TheJackel]

Circle jerking?

Yes, circle jerking.. That's exactly what you are doing.

You keep claiming I'm playing ignorance,

That's because you are, and well demonstrated below.

yet you haven't defined Omniscience..

 :drool

.and now you ADD to it as Theological Omniscience.

There is a difference between practical omniscience on a subject (such as basic math, or perhaps a game of chicken), and the theological use of omniscience to where the deity is claimed to be literally Omniscient, and have it as an actual attribute of it's nature in relation to all it's other attributes.... For petes sake, visit the damn wiki page on it!

On the contrary, I had to go and define it myself.

We can tell, you seem to think your own deluded self-invented definitions magically make any logical sense. And I posted the damn definition for you! But if you had let's say not self-invented your own definition and actually looked it up, you clearly didn't comprehend it's definition and chose to interpret it into your own mystical definition that makes no damn sense what-so-ever.

I've also showed you how you do have the free will to choose and the difference between free will in choosing and free will in doing.

Completely and entirely irrelevant to the argument to which has been put forth before you! Free will is entirely irrelevant regardless of what side of the fence you are on in this discussion. Stating the obvious is useless, especially when what you are attempting to argue doesn't address the context of the argument! Free will actually defies Omniscience! That is more of a point towards Atheists that it is towards Theists!.. And Free will can't exist either without INFORMATION!

You can choose to accept or reject God.  It is YOUR choice.

You speak as if it exist to where I would have a choice to choose the acceptance of it. I can't accept to choose to accept the existence of something that doesn't exist! I don't day dream ideas and then claim them to be "real". You may as well try and attempt to tell me that Mario (the fictional character) is real and that I have made a choice to refuse to accept it's real.. Especially when I know Mario is a fictional character.

You cannot, however, will to be a bird.  That's not logical and not in line with the free will argument.  (You are, however, free to think you're a bird.)

Your logic isn't even in line with intellectual coherency.. Your hugging a free will argument as if it's a safety blanket from actually having to address Omniscience properly, and properly in regards to the definition of the Christian GOD.. The definition well pointed out in the Fount of Knowledge under Chapter 14. Hence, you are cherry picking attributes without even comprehending what they mean, or how they apply to all the other attributes, and the world around you!.. It's like watching the Titanic sink while the Captain and everyone on board denies it's sinking right up to where they all die. It's like ok... Enjoy the sinking ship of Titanical ignorance. I don't care, but I will address it when you come here preaching it.

So without going into some rant of lists and thousands of words, define simply what Omniscience is and we can move from there.  It shouldn't be a huge task.

I don't think we can patch the hole in your ship Captain, you refuse to believe it's there. I think this is where I take the life boat and save myself from your sheer intentional ignorance.  

[AnimatedDirt]

Fact remains.  Free will exists.  You make your own choices of your own mind.

That's not circle jerking.

If Omniscience is defined differently than the link provided, then simply define it.  So far you're just whining.

[TheJackel]

Fact remains.  Free will exists.

Not in literal context.. Free being a big problem with that argument. It's restricted choices! And regardless, Dirt is real too, and so is existence! You have made no point here worth even arguing. it's pleadingly ambiguous at best.

You make your own choices of your own mind.

Computers with self-organizing algorithms make choices of their own processing. Welcome to realizing that reality is a Complex Adaptive System with feedback!.. However, I can't make any such choices without information to process or weigh, and neither can you or anything that is conscious! Just like a computer can not process information without information to process! Colors can not process other colors into new colors or patterns of color without information either!  Consciousness can not exist without a system with feedback, or a system without information.  So here is something you need to learn about information theory and how it relates to programming, systems, processes, functions, or things that require feeback, value, substance, complexity, and structure. Systems that can support such things as conscious minds, life, or any Phenomenon in general to which could exist.

Nothing begins with consciousness, and everything begins and ends with information

Take good note of this, because it's not going to magically go away, or become a magical fallacy because you would want to wish it away. It's simply how shit really is, its the cold reality of existence! And it's not something you need to fear, or ignore. It's not something you need to bow down to and worship! And that is because it is you, and you are it!

That's not circle jerking.

Yes it is

If Omniscience is defined differently than the link provided, then simply define it.  So far you're just whining.

No it's not me whining, it's you whining because you can't deal with the actual definition of the word, and what it actually means.

[GAYtheist]

...Bah

[TheJackel]

...Bah

I agree  :pop: