The hackenslash Challenge (split)

[Asmodean]

You can find the word 'Life' for example written/mentioned in the Qur'an 145 times, same counts for 'Death'.

Ah! The number of times the word is mentioned..!

Well, it can be coincidental OR it can be written that way on purpose by those who wrote the script. OR it can be partly coincidental (Like the words only used twice) while being partly on purpose (Like using life just as much as death - to signify that for every life, there is always a death, namely its own, perhaps...)

I can only speculate whether or not that is coincidental.

[iSok]

Well, it can be coincidental OR it can be written that way on purpose by those who wrote the script.

If you only knew the history of it......



Lastly I want to say.
That even a very respected Christian orientalists eventually came to the conclusion
that the Qur'an was divinely inspired but he eventually rejected it because he didn't find truth in it.
He believed it was God's will to inspire the human race in different way based on my signature verse (see below).

So for a Christian orientalist it must be pretty hard to come to that conclusion.


William Montgomery Watt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Montgomery_Watt

[Asmodean]

If you only knew the history of it......

That I do not.

However, I fail to see the significance of words being mentioned equal number of times, factoring in the reasonable doubt, which in this case is: How is it more plausible that there is something divine to the equal values than that some less-than-divine human put them there to invoke symbolic significance?

Is there any significance there besides symbolic..?

EDIT: By the way, it just dawned on me that you have probably misunderstood me in the carbon vs. steel discussion... OR maybe I misunderstood you. We left that discussion, but just for the heck of it...

You asked me which element I would replace steel with, so I gave you a chemical element. Carbon as a chemical element is not only about ye old bike frame carbon fibers. There are also plastics, resins and a whole host of organic compounds in which carbon is cruicial.

By making composites I mentioned out of such compounds (Very basically, layering those with high tensile strength and those which resist pressure), you can achieve materials with properties sufficient to construct a tall structure. Such a structure would have some great disadvantages in case of earth quakes, for example, however on stable ground, it could be built quite tall indeed.

While not (practically, within reason. Theoretical possibilities are a different matter) having the tensile strength of many construction alloys, such materials would be sufficient to construct a sky scraper. Naturally, the architecture would difer from that of today's sky scrapers, but that is a different matter.

Are we on more or less the same page now..?

[iSok]

If you only knew the history of it......

That I do not.

However, I fail to see the significance of words being mentioned equal number of times, factoring in the reasonable doubt, which in this case is: How is it more plausible that there is something divine to the equal values than that some less-than-divine human put them there to invoke symbolic significance?

Is there any significance there besides symbolic..?

Well, if you knew how the Qur'an came into existence, you'd see that it would be very hard.

So far, there has not been a reasonable theory of the origin of the Qur'an.
Orientalists usually study the Qur'an, Muhammad (pbuh) and Islamic history and that's it.
So uptill today there's no other theory about the origin of the Qur'an than the theory of the Muslims.

- Dr. Laura Vaglieri (Orientalist)

The Miracle of Islam par excellence is the Quran, through which a constant and unbroken tradition transmits to us news of an absolute certainty. This is a book which cannot be imitated. Each of its expressions is a comprehensive one, and yet it is of proper size, neither too long nor too short. Its style is original. There is no model for this style in Arab literature of the times preceding it. The effect which it produces on the human soul is obtained without any adventitious aid through its own inherent excellences. The verses are equally eloquent all through the text, even when they deal with topics, such as commandments and prohibitions, which must necessarily affect its tone. Stories of Prophets, descriptions of the beginning and the end of the world, enumerations and expositions of the divine attributes are repeated but repeated in a way which is so impressive that they do not weaken the effect. The text proceeds from one topic to another without losing its power. Depth and sweetness, qualities which generally do not go together, are found together here, where each rhetoric figure finds a perfect application. . . . We find there vast stores of knowledge which are beyond the capacity of the most intelligent of men, the greatest of philosophers and the ablest of politicians.

I think it isn't coincidence.
But one of the many arguments for it's divine source.

[Asmodean]

Well, if you knew how the Qur'an came into existence, you'd see that it would be very hard.

And yet, as it seems from what you implied below, no-one DOES know its origin.

So far, there has not been a reasonable theory of the origin of the Qur'an.
Orientalists usually study the Qur'an, Muhammad (pbuh) and Islamic history and that's it.
So uptill today there's no other theory about the origin of the Qur'an than the theory of the Muslims.

I have half a mind of poking the first sentence against the third, but I will not. It is, after all, 3AM.

So why exactly can the Quran NOT have been written by men with no divine intervention?

- Dr. Laura Vaglieri (Orientalist)

The Miracle of Islam par excellence is the Quran, through which a constant and unbroken tradition transmits to us news of an absolute certainty. This is a book which cannot be imitated. Each of its expressions is a comprehensive one, and yet it is of proper size, neither too long nor too short. Its style is original. There is no model for this style in Arab literature of the times preceding it. The effect which it produces on the human soul is obtained without any adventitious aid through its own inherent excellences. The verses are equally eloquent all through the text, even when they deal with topics, such as commandments and prohibitions, which must necessarily affect its tone. Stories of Prophets, descriptions of the beginning and the end of the world, enumerations and expositions of the divine attributes are repeated but repeated in a way which is so impressive that they do not weaken the effect. The text proceeds from one topic to another without losing its power. Depth and sweetness, qualities which generally do not go together, are found together here, where each rhetoric figure finds a perfect application. . . . We find there vast stores of knowledge which are beyond the capacity of the most intelligent of men, the greatest of philosophers and the ablest of politicians.

Very subjective in far too many places.

I think it isn't coincidence.
But one of the many arguments for it's divine source.

Purpose does not imply divine intervention or origin. Humans can make patterns for a purpose.

[iSok]

And yet, as it seems from what you implied below, no-one DOES know its origin.

We (muslims) do, Islam is based on it.

I have half a mind of poking the first sentence against the third, but I will not. It is, after all, 3AM.

3:18 now, got to get up at 06:00. Tommorow first day of second semester.

So why exactly can the Quran NOT have been written by men with no divine intervention?

There are a lot of arguments. If you are sincerely interested.
Start here...   http://www.theinimitablequran.com/

Very subjective in far too many places.

Wanted to point out that the Qur'an is also regarded by
non-muslim orientalist (people with no agenda) as something 'very nice'.

Purpose does not imply divine intervention or origin. Humans can make patterns for a purpose.

Yes it does play a role.
There are a lot of 'signs', not just science or counting words, that just plays a minor role.
I hope I can explain them all here.
But on the other hand, there's not a single reason why I shouldn't believe in the Qur'an or Islam.

[DJAkuma]

Well, it can be coincidental OR it can be written that way on purpose by those who wrote the script.

If you only knew the history of it......



Lastly I want to say.
That even a very respected Christian orientalists eventually came to the conclusion
that the Qur'an was divinely inspired but he eventually rejected it because he didn't find truth in it.
He believed it was God's will to inspire the human race in different way based on my signature verse (see below).

So for a Christian orientalist it must be pretty hard to come to that conclusion.


William Montgomery Watt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Montgomery_Watt

Take a look at the "argument from authority" logical fallacy to see why the above doesn't hold water...

[DJAkuma]

Yes it does play a role.
There are a lot of 'signs', not just science or counting words, that just plays a minor role.
I hope I can explain them all here.
But on the other hand, there's not a single reason why I shouldn't believe in the Qur'an or Islam.

You can find "signs" in almost any literary work if you look hard enough, can you prove with empirical data that the "signs" in your book are any more accurate than those in the bible, the book of mormon or the prophesies of nostradamus?

[Stevil]

But on the other hand, there's not a single reason why I shouldn't believe in the Qur'an or Islam.

I can't think of a single reason why I would believe in the Qur'an or Islam. I guess it comes down to personal choice rather than proven fact.

Achronos says that we should forget about proof and reason and instead look to the Bible and Christian Orthodoxy, it all just seems so random to me. Put my faith into a scripture (Bible, Qur'an, or other), believe what I am told, align my values to the morals of that scripture, persecute people that the scripture tells me are sinners...

I'd rather think for myself, do what I feel is right, be tolerant of others, show compassion and love, treat others as equals...
I've never been good at doing what I'm told, I always ask too many questions. You know, "...but why?". I like that science tries to improve itself all the time, that they look for proof, that they are willing to admit when they are wrong, that they don't care if the answer doesn't match preconceived ideas, that they have no alteria motive, they have no moral high ground, they simply want to know how things work.

[DJAkuma]

But on the other hand, there's not a single reason why I shouldn't believe in the Qur'an or Islam.

I can't think of a single reason why I would believe in the Qur'an or Islam. I guess it comes down to personal choice rather than proven fact.

Achronos says that we should forget about proof and reason and instead look to the Bible and Christian Orthodoxy, it all just seems so random to me. Put my faith into a scripture (Bible, Qur'an, or other), believe what I am told, align my values to the morals of that scripture, persecute people that the scripture tells me are sinners...

I'd rather think for myself, do what I feel is right, be tolerant of others, show compassion and love, treat others as equals...
I've never been good at doing what I'm told, I always ask too many questions. You know, "...but why?". I like that science tries to improve itself all the time, that they look for proof, that they are willing to admit when they are wrong, that they don't care if the answer doesn't match preconceived ideas, that they have no alteria motive, they have no moral high ground, they simply want to know how things work.

That right there is the big difference between faith and science. Faith starts out with the answers and interprets the evidence to fit them, science looks at the evidence and tries to find answers, as more evidence is gathered the answers are subject to change. With faith the answers stay the same, as more evidence gets in the way the interpretation of the evidence is adjusted to fit the answers.

[iSok]

But on the other hand, there's not a single reason why I shouldn't believe in the Qur'an or Islam.

I can't think of a single reason why I would believe in the Qur'an or Islam. I guess it comes down to personal choice rather than proven fact.

Achronos says that we should forget about proof and reason and instead look to the Bible and Christian Orthodoxy, it all just seems so random to me. Put my faith into a scripture (Bible, Qur'an, or other), believe what I am told, align my values to the morals of that scripture, persecute people that the scripture tells me are sinners...

I'd rather think for myself, do what I feel is right, be tolerant of others, show compassion and love, treat others as equals...
I've never been good at doing what I'm told, I always ask too many questions. You know, "...but why?". I like that science tries to improve itself all the time, that they look for proof, that they are willing to admit when they are wrong, that they don't care if the answer doesn't match preconceived ideas, that they have no alteria motive, they have no moral high ground, they simply want to know how things work.

Stevil,

Almost two years ago, I think I was pretty much an agnostic, because of all the evil in the world, the lack of proof.
But I never read the Qur'an or any Islamic books. So I wanted to give it a chance.

When I started reading, the Qur'an started a 'dialogue' with me. First it is you that
reads the Qur'an, but after a while the Qur'an is reading you, there's a frightening presence.
So the Qur'an asks you to think, to reason to connect idea's.
'have you no sense?'

I would build up a barrier with questions, but when I read the Qur'an for a few pages it would
answer pretty much every question and destroy my  barrier. This continued for days, everytime I thought, now my barrier
stays, the Qur'an would get in and crumble it. And when I finished it, I was overwhelmed.

Islam itself means 'to find peace in submission'.
I don't know how to describe the feeling, but you are actually ready to die.
Not because of the afterlife-aspect and not of depression. But because you are a part
of nature, everything that exists is already in submission and now I am too.
So when people die they often ask themselves: 'Why me?", I'd rather ask myself 'Why not me?'.
There are also other aspects.

In Islam you are encouraged to grow in spirit, spiritual enlightment.
And you are given a few ways on how to achieve that; high morals, prayer, charity....etc

This inner feeling of infinite peace is overwhelming....
You stop thinking about materialistic aspects; cars, houses and money....this leads to emptiness.
If I have a shelter and enough food to survive, I am more than happy because many people in the world don't even have that..
Basically I still have no single reason not to believe.

Achronos understood that also very well...He has this feeling too.
I wanted to point out that the Qur'an cannot be man-made, the reason I gave this 'evidence' is not for myself
but to at the very least stimulate you in getting you more interested. The 'evidence' I gave is not meant as an undeniable proof of divine origin.
But it's meant to stimulate some people here...
So that you might also say; 'lets give it a chance'.

[Whitney]

I'm not interested in becoming a follower of Islam; a few numerology tricks and some vague interpretations that kinda sorta meet reality if you want them to is not compelling reason to throw on a head scarf.

[iSok]

I'm not interested in becoming a follower of Islam; a few numerology tricks and some vague interpretations that kinda sorta meet reality if you want them to is not compelling reason to throw on a head scarf.

Head scarf itself is a minor aspect of Islam (also pretty controversial).
I know some converts on my uni, they do not wear it, although they are pretty much practising muslima's.
Others wear it after years, some never do.

The most important aspect within Islam,
is to submit to God and surrender your will, just like everything in nature does, only man does not have it's set of laws and rules
and decides to change them continuosly to fulfill his/her desires.
'to submit and find peace', I know it's hard to think this way because the image that Islam is given today.

[Stevil]

"Tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms." The Qur'an.

"Your wifes are your tillage, Go in therefore unto your tillage in what manner soever ye will" The Qur'an

If wives are disobedient, "admonish them, send them  to beds apart, and scourge them." The Qur'an

Of course, only God could have come up with such beautiful passages.

[iSok]

"Tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms." The Qur'an.

"Your wifes are your tillage, Go in therefore unto your tillage in what manner soever ye will" The Qur'an

If wives are disobedient, "admonish them, send them  to beds apart, and scourge them." The Qur'an

Of course, only God could have come up with such beautiful passages.

You do not harm me with this Stevil, you only harm yourself.
I explained the verses you mentioned in detail in another topic, but you never responded.
And now you quote them again....

I won't go into detail here, as you've already made your choice.

'Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty, that will make for greater purity for them, Surely Allah is aware of what they do.' (Al-Quran: Surah An-Noor - Verse 30)