The hackenslash Challenge (split)

[Stevil]

Huh, It is never my intent to harm you.

I am simply presenting some simple phrases as they are written in the Qur'an. I thought this would be good balance since you are presenting the Qur'an as a divine and beautiful thing. At least if it is presented verbatim then people can decide for themselves.

By the way, your interpretation of the tillage phrase did not match at all what the Qur'an says. I think people should be able to read for themselves rather than listen to the iSok interpretation.

I explained the verses you mentioned in detail in another topic, but you never responded.
And now you quote them again....

BTW, when you say "them" you are either lying or you have a poor memory. Of the three phrases I have only ever mentioned one of them before. Please be honest in your discussions.

[iSok]

Huh, It is never my intent to harm you.

I am simply presenting some simple phrases as they are written in the Qur'an. I thought this would be good balance since you are presenting the Qur'an as a divine and beautiful thing. At least if it is presented verbatim then people can decide for themselves.

By the way, your interpretation of the tillage phrase did not match at all what the Qur'an says. I think people should be able to read for themselves rather than listen to the iSok interpretation.

I explained the verses you mentioned in detail in another topic, but you never responded.
And now you quote them again....

BTW, when you say "them" you are either lying or you have a poor memory. Of the three phrases I have only ever mentioned one of them before. Please be honest in your discussions.

Like I said Stevil, you already made your choice and no one can change that.
About the tillage, go look on the web if you don't believe me, but you have probably already read about that
on faithfreedom.com I guess.

you post this.

"Tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms." The Qur'an.
But you don't post the verse meant for men..I find that rather odd.....

I think the most controversial part of Muhammad (pbuh) for you is the marriage with Aisha.
At the other topic I already explained this in detail and you never responded....

As for the last verse, it's pretty easy to explain, you'll be surprised.
But even if I do explain in detail, you've already marked Islam as opressive towards woman.
And within a week you'll quote once again verses of the Qur'an as so called 'opressive'.

(I said earlier, that the majority of converts are women, would be strange if Islam is opressive towards women)


A man came to the Prophet and said, ‘O Messenger of God! Who among the people is the most worthy of my good companionship? The Prophet said: Your mother. The man said, ‘Then who?' The Prophet said: Then your mother. The man further asked, ‘Then who?' The Prophet said: Then your mother. The man asked again, ‘Then who?' The Prophet said: Then your father. (Bukhari, Muslim). - Muhammad (pbuh)

Your Heaven lies under the feet of your mother (Ahmad, Nasai). - Muhammad (pbuh)

[Stevil]

"Tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms." The Qur'an.
But you don't post the verse meant for men..I find that rather odd.....

As I have told you in the past, my knowledge of Islam and Qur'an is from a book called "Nine parts of Desire - the hidden world of Islamic Women". I have not read nor do I have the desire to read the Qur'an. It should not be surprising to you that I only quote stuff pertaining to women since by source is a book about women. If the verse meant for men is oppressive of men then please feel free to post that as well, it would also support my case against the Qur'an.

I think the most controversial part of Muhammad (pbuh) for you is the marriage with Aisha.
At the other topic I already explained this in detail and you never responded....

As disgusting as Muhammad is, I realise the focus should be on the Qur'an which is percieved to be God's word and not Muhammad's.

As for the last verse, it's pretty easy to explain, you'll be surprised.
...

I am trying to add balance to this discussion by simply quoting the Qur'an, I am not adding my own interpretation. The qur'an is what the qur'an is, warts and all, people need to realise what it speaks of. You choose to only show the parts you think are devine, I see that as dishonest as you are not showing a true representation. I am merely adding balance, I don't think the whole book is as bad as the parts I have quoted.
You can choose to defend the quotes I have shown by adding an alternative interpretation or you can chose not to defend the qur'an, that is your perogotive. I don't think you need to defend it. It is what it is.

[iSok]

As I have told you in the past, my knowledge of Islam and Qur'an is from a book called "Nine parts of Desire - the hidden world of Islamic Women". I have not read nor do I have the desire to read the Qur'an. It should not be surprising to you that I only quote stuff pertaining to women since by source is a book about women. If the verse meant for men is oppressive of men then please feel free to post that as well, it would also support my case against the Qur'an.

This is rather shocking, that all of your knowledge of a whole religion comes from one book, and do you really think you have obtained an objective look?
You are only repeating what you read, it doesn't come from you. I am glad you admit it....

As disgusting as Muhammad is, I realise the focus should be on the Qur'an which is percieved to be God's word and not Muhammad's.

Once again, you failed to see the whole context.
Would a pervert marry a woman of 40 at the age of 25, 15 years older than him.
And stay with her for 25 years and even after her death never forget her?
So somehow Muhammad (pbuh) turned into a pervert all of a sudden at the age of 53 according to you by marrying Aisha?
Even then I explained the whole issue in detail and your only respond is "As disgusting as Muhammad is"

I am trying to add balance to this discussion by simply quoting the Qur'an, I am not adding my own interpretation. The qur'an is what the qur'an is, warts and all, people need to realise what it speaks of. You choose to only show the parts you think are devine, I see that as dishonest as you are not showing a true representation. I am merely adding balance, I don't think the whole book is as bad as the parts I have quoted.
You can choose to defend the quotes I have shown by adding an alternative interpretation or you can chose not to defend the qur'an, that is your perogotive. I don't think you need to defend it. It is what it is.

You are actually not adding balance, are you accusing me of being not honest?
I posted verses of the Qur'an which contained as what I believe 'signs'. Those verses were not about
laws, politics or daily life. I didn't even start a topic about women and men....

But you did and you decided to post only verses that seem to be opressive towards women.
(1)You started the subject, (2)you picked verses on women and (3)you picked specifically verses that are 'opressive'.
By looking at the verses you posted, I can see that the author had her own agenda, and you based your view on that book.
Your excuse is that it comes from the only book you have ever read about this topic so you have nothing else to add.
And you accuse me of being dishonest?

[Stevil]

I am sorry to have offended you iSok. I merely posted some quotes from the Qur'an. I am not sure how you can find quotes from the Qur'an offensive.

I was correct in accusing you of being dishonest with regards to your statement that I had posted the three quotes before when you know I had only posted one of them.

I had overstated your dishonesty with regards to your representation of the Qur'an as obviously you were using material to back up your point. I felt it was dishonest when I read it as I know there are other material within the Qur'an which are contrary to your point, however I should allow you to address these issues before accusing you of being dishonest here.

[iSok]

I am sorry to have offended you iSok. I merely posted some quotes from the Qur'an. I am not sure how you can find quotes from the Qur'an offensive.

I was correct in accusing you of being dishonest with regards to your statement that I had posted the three quotes before when you know I had only posted one of them.

I had overstated your dishonesty with regards to your representation of the Qur'an as obviously you were using material to back up your point. I felt it was dishonest when I read it as I know there are other material within the Qur'an which are contrary to your point, however I should allow you to address these issues before accusing you of being dishonest here.

No worries, you did not offend me, I am not offended that soon
If the verses in the Qur'an (you quoted) would offend me, I would no longer be a Muslim.
I just didn't like the idea that you quote verses with no context and no explanation.

Stevil, if you do have any questions, please do ask me. I will be honest in adressing every issue.
Wether it's something in the Qur'an, Muhammad's (pbuh) life or Islamic history.
(I lack knowledge on the last topic)

I am sorry too if I hurt your feelings by any of my posts.

[Stevil]

Stevil, if you do have any questions, please do ask me. I will be honest in adressing every issue.

iSok, just to get us off in the right direction, there is zero possibility that you will convert me to islam, and I have zero interest in converting you to be an Atheist.

I am interested to know more about Islam though and I am interested to know how you as a Muslim feel about how Muslims are representing themselves on the world stage. I hope you can understand how the Western world struggle to understand Islam the way the Arab countries are behaving with their treatment of women, hiding them under bed sheets and treating them like property. I hope you can understand how the Western world struggle to understand why some Muslims perform terror acts and simply blow non military citizens up, creating much grief and pain. I hope you can understand the fear that people feel when they hear leaders such as the leader of Iran who make public statements that they would like to blow up Isreal.
This is all very extreme stuff and gets in the news alot.

Are you able to paint a different picture for us? What do the normal muslims think of all this?

[iSok]

Stevil, if you do have any questions, please do ask me. I will be honest in adressing every issue.

iSok, just to get us off in the right direction, there is zero possibility that you will convert me to islam, and I have zero interest in converting you to be an Atheist.

I am interested to know more about Islam though and I am interested to know how you as a Muslim feel about how Muslims are representing themselves on the world stage. I hope you can understand how the Western world struggle to understand Islam the way the Arab countries are behaving with their treatment of women, hiding them under bed sheets and treating them like property. I hope you can understand how the Western world struggle to understand why some Muslims perform terror acts and simply blow non military citizens up, creating much grief and pain. I hope you can understand the fear that people feel when they hear leaders such as the leader of Iran who make public statements that they would like to blow up Isreal.
This is all very extreme stuff and gets in the news alot.

Are you able to paint a different picture for us? What do the normal muslims think of all this?

Tank and Asmodean also asked me of this, I'll open a new topic with this issue (terrorism) to be adressed.