The hackenslash Challenge (split)

[Whitney]

I'm not sure what the whole point with iron and steel is but iSok is right about tension not being a friend of concrete.  If we didn't have steel we'd still be able to build stuff, just not as high (or perhaps we would have developed some other material by this point).

Topic derailed a bit.
I said that Iron is important for man, without Iron the world we see today would not be like it is.
(High structures would not be possible, the introduction of Iron in the industrial age made that possible)

Asmodean denies that, see my post.
We are still looking for new materials, but steel is by far the best composite that can be found.

Well, while it's nice to be able to build tall structures; it's not like humans would die out if we couldn't do it.  Some places even forbid tall structures.  

Not to mention that skyscrapers wouldn't be possible without the invention of various other technologies; such as the elevator.

There are lots of things that humans use and that we find important that we wouldn't necessarily miss if they had never existed.

[iSok]

I find it amusing that gematria and isopsephy are being used here as some sort of method for "proving" a scientific revelation in the Quran.  Neither method has any basis in science at all.  This is mystic tripe served up by those with too much time on their hands. You might as well tell us that your psychic told you that the Quran holds all the secrets of the universe, iSok.  It would be just as convincing.

Mentioning certain words in the Qur'an and ammount of times.


World: 115
Hereafter: 115


Seven heavens: 7
Creation of the seven heavens: 7

Faith: 25
Infidelity: 25

Paradise: 77
Hell: 77

Satan: 88
Angels: 88

Life: 145
Death: 145

Man: 23
Woman: 23

I can continue....


Did Muhammad(pbuh) posses a secret list so he would make sure this?
Would someone who's trying to make up a religion even think of this?

[Asmodean]

Once again Asmodean. What do you do for a living?
As I'm really curious........you still did not answer this.

Once again, my profession is no business of yours. I do not advertise on demand.

You claim a lot of things.

- High structures like the Burj Khalifa can be build with carbon fiber....? (Please do explain this)

A matter of fiber direction. It is difficult, but doable. CF is brittle, however, the fibers have very decent resistance to pressure. Thus, a layered CF pipe would provide reasonable kilo-per-kilo stability compared to a steel T-bar or a steel pipe.

- Concrete structures with reinforced fibre structures are expensive and time consuming (They are actually not, most of the time pre-cast and very cheap)

No, I said composites tend to be expensive and time consuming to manufacture. Example: modern torsion bars

- 'There is also ceramics'.....concrete is a ceramic..you can not build a skyscraper with concrete. Ceramic materials can endure a lot of pressure

Ceramics as a part of a composite material. Why not? We do it already.

but when it comes to tension, they crumble pretty fast... Ceramic materials were always available, but with the coming of Iron during the industrial age.

Yes, which is why you can use layered fiber, for instance, to counter the brittle ceramics. And that's where we come to the expensive part - layered fibers like this are not exactly cheap.

High rise buildings were possible for the first time, because of the iron that was used in concrete, so concrete could also endure more tension than without.
- Steel is a composite (Iron and Carbon)...it's not an element as you think it is....

Yes to point one. No to point two. Steel is an alloy

None of your points have any value.

Because you seem to be looking at this debate in terms of practicality, while I do so in terms of possibility.

It's as if you say the Earth is flat....and keep claiming that....you do condemn certain religous groups for that.
I lack in many..many things knowledge, but I just don't claim things........I keep silent and ask if I don't know.

Well, I WAS hoping you would answer what I HAVE asked, but I guess it's not going to happen in any reasonably constructive manner.

[iSok]

I am not going to continue this debate, pointless....
You are trying to tell a doctor that the heart can be in a man's head.....

You presented your job as 'I make much money!!' and it would impress me as an
engineer, I am not at all....so I am still curious.
I already answered your question.

Do also read my post above.

[Asmodean]

Asmodean denies that, see my post.

No. Do not put statements in my mouth which have never come out of there.

I challenge any one to find a line where I stated that iron was not important to our civilization.   In regard to how the world would look, that depends. Visual appearance of a planet is greatly dependant on the closeness of the observer. I'm sure that with no iron deposites, some rock formations would be different, but I am not so sure the Earth would look all that dfferent seen from the Moon or Venus.

What I DID say is that within a civilization and excluding its biology, iron is not necessarilly irreplaceable. It may well be the best and the most practical alloy for construction, but that is a different point, which I have not contested beyond providing an alternative.

[Asmodean]

I am not going to continue this debate, pointless....
You are trying to tell a doctor that the heart can be in a man's head.....

No. The doctor just reads into statements whatever he wants.

You presented your job as 'I make much money!!' and it would impress me as an
engineer, I am not at all....so I am still curious.

No. I said something about what I do for a living, then you pulled money out of thin air and I said yes to that question. *I* did NOT present my job as making much money, nor did I use the exclamation marks. I merely responded to two questions, one of which I was willing to answer in the most general terms possible.

I already answered your question.

Yes. Your answer was flawed and you ignored the flaws.

[iSok]

I am not going to continue this debate, pointless....
You are trying to tell a doctor that the heart can be in a man's head.....

No. The doctor just reads into statements whatever he wants.

You presented your job as 'I make much money!!' and it would impress me as an
engineer, I am not at all....so I am still curious.

No. I said something about what I do for a living, then you pulled money out of thin air and I said yes to that question. *I* did NOT present my job as making much money, nor did I use the exclamation marks. I merely responded to two questions, one of which I was willing to answer in the most general terms possible.

I already answered your question.

Yes. Your answer was flawed and you ignored the flaws.

"I fail to see your point. Oh, and you *really* don't want to try invoking win-by-education with me without even knowing what I do for a living."


"'Oh and you really don't want to try..."
Did I fail in seeing that as 'I know more about this'?
I am still very curious what you do for a living.....are you a mobster?

This whole derail began because you started to question.

-Why do I add up the values?
-Why isn't it applicable for other elements.

1) Because I find it logic.
2) Other elements are not too be found in the Qur'an, they are of course in the Arabic language.
    But the Arabic language is not some miracle language (If it was, you would still question the Qur'an).

Then I said that Iron is very important for us, and you started a whole argument that it isn't at all and we can easily live without it, claiming
that you knew everything about it.....which obviously you didn't (half of your info comes from wikipedia....).

Okay so be it, I am wrong and you are right Asmodean.

But care to explain the issue above, about the pattern in Qur'an?
Why is for example man mentioned 23 times and woman also? Or the other words?

[Asmodean]

Did I fail in seeing that as 'I know more about this'?

Apparently, you did fail to see my words for what they were.

Or gotten the meaning in reverse.

I was saying that while it is quite possible that you hold an expert opinion in this regard, advertising it invokes the implication that I, or someone in my immediate surroundings, do not. OR that your opinion is more valid by virtue of an education that I, or someone in my surroundings, do not posess.

Now, would you mind explaining to me where I presented my job as the following:

You presented your job as 'I make much money!!'

Not where YOU presented it as such and I responded by a vague confirmation, where I did.

[iSok]

Did I fail in seeing that as 'I know more about this'?

Apparently, you did fail to seeing my words for what they were.

Or gotten the meaning in reverse.

I was saying that while it is quite possible that you hold an expert opinion in this regard, advertising it invokes the implication that I, or someone in my immediate surroundings, do not. OR that your opinion is more valid by virtue of an education that I, or someone in my surroundings, do not posess.

Now, would you mind explaining to me where I presented my job as the following:

You presented your job as 'I make much money!!'

Not where YOU presented it as such and I responded by a vague confirmation, where I did.

You still didn't answer my question Asmodean about the points above.

This is what you said by the way:

8*4+10^4=10032

I got paid that amount for a job I did five years ago (close enough) What is significance of THAT?

I have no idea HOW you brought up this....your wealth does not benefit me....

[Asmodean]

-Why do I add up the values?
-Why isn't it applicable for other elements.

Indeed. I do remember where we were before the derail quite clearly. Let us look at that, shall we..?

1) Because I find it logic.

Thank you. Because YOU find it logical. We have a key word here. That doesn't mean, however, that any one else will see the same logic without proof of concept, which is not possible without a larger sample size which is not possible due to the limitations of the Quran. Thus, your statement that there is something other than a coincidence or false evidence in the number 26 is an empty and highly subjective claim, which has been my position throughout this whole charade.

2) Other elements are not too be found in the Qur'an, they are of course in the Arabic language.
    But the Arabic language is not some miracle language (If it was, you would still question the Qur'an).

Of course I would question. I can, however, be convinced that something is indeed correct. You just failed to do so in this case for the reason partly stated above.

Then I said that Iron is very important for us, and you started a whole argument that it isn't at all and we can easily live without it, claiming
that you knew everything about it.....which obviously you didn't.

Never did that. You are attributing implications to my words which I never made.

Okay, I am wrong and you are right Asmodean.

For all we know, I could be wrong too. However, you have not convinced me that you are likely to be less wrong than I.

But care to explain the issue above, about the pattern in Qur'an?

Superstition is seeing patterns where there are none. What is the word for imposing patterns where there should be none..?

LAST POST ADDON: Is 10000 a lot..? Not really, no. Well, maybe in Euro or USD or British pounds... But I am not from any one of those countries. By the way, THAT job was not the one I do today. It was a one-time summer gig. What I was asking was: if I use those same numbers, but with different operators and get my own salary from five or so years ago, what would be the significance of that..? Numerologically..? About the same as the significance of them adding up to 26, yes?

EDIT: You see, THIS is why I asked to provide the lines in which I have stated that I make a "lot of money". With misunderstandings, misinterpretations and misimplications out of the way, maybe we can actually GET SOMEWHERE.

[iSok]

-Why do I add up the values?
-Why isn't it applicable for other elements.

Indeed. I do remember where we were before the derail quite clearly. Let us look at that, shall we..?

1) Because I find it logic.

Thank you. Because YOU find it logical. We have a key word here. That doesn't mean, however, that any one else will see the same logic without proof of concept, which is not possible without a larger sample size which is not possible due to the limitations of the Quran. Thus, your statement that there is something other than a coincidence or false evidence in the number 26 is an empty and highly subjective claim, which has been my position throughout this whole charade.

2) Other elements are not too be found in the Qur'an, they are of course in the Arabic language.
    But the Arabic language is not some miracle language (If it was, you would still question the Qur'an).

Of course I would question. I can, however, be convinced that something is indeed correct. You just failed to do so in this case for the reason partly stated above.

Then I said that Iron is very important for us, and you started a whole argument that it isn't at all and we can easily live without it, claiming
that you knew everything about it.....which obviously you didn't.

Never did that. You are attributing implications to my words which I never made.

Okay, I am wrong and you are right Asmodean.

For all we know, I could be wrong too. However, you have not convinced me that you are likely to be less wrong than I.

But care to explain the issue above, about the pattern in Qur'an?

Superstition is seeing patterns where there are none. What is the word for imposing patterns where there should be none..?

LAST POST ADDON: Is 10000 a lot..? Not really, no. Well, maybe in Euro or USD or British pounds... But I am not from any one of those countries. By the way, THAT job was not the one I do today. It was a one-time summer gig. What I was asking was: if I use those same numbers, but with different operators and get my own salary from five or so years ago, what would be the significance of that..? Numerologically..? About the same as the significance of them adding up to 26, yes?

Forgive me, you are right. (I don't see the point in continueing this)

A last question before I go to bed.

World: 115
Hereafter: 115


Seven heavens: 7
Creation of the seven heavens: 7

Faith: 25
Infidelity: 25

Paradise: 77
Hell: 77

Satan: 88
Angels: 88

Life: 145
Death: 145

Man: 23
Woman: 23

(List is longer)

You do consider this as coincidence, right?

[Asmodean]

World: 115
Hereafter: 115

Is that the sum of letters in an alphabet..? Which one..? If latin derivates, then it would be off by several points depending on the country of origin. Not all countries using latin lettering have the same number of letters and the special characters don't always come at the very end.

Seven heavens: 7
Creation of the seven heavens: 7

Faith: 25
Infidelity: 25

Paradise: 77
Hell: 77

Satan: 88
Angels: 88

Life: 145
Death: 145

Man: 23
Woman: 23

Is this coincidence? Yes/No

I don't really know how you achieved those numerical value, so I can not make a proper response. However, I think this is more the case of imposing a pattern onto the words rather than finding one already there. That means, in VERY short and incomplete words, NO, not a coincidence.

[Recusant]

Did Muhammad(pbuh) posses a secret list so he would make sure this?
Would someone who's trying to make up a religion even think of this?

To the first question: Perhaps Muhammad, or perhaps whoever first wrote the book down, or somebody subsequent to that. (Assuming that the counts you posted are accurate, and not fudged by somebody with an agenda.) As far as I'm concerned, any one of these explanations are more likely than that "Allah willed it thus."

To the second question:  Why not?  Muhammad may have had nothing to do with the precise number of times a certain word was used in the written version of the Quran which has come down to us in the modern world. People living hundreds of years ago put great store in such things, and apparently some still do.

At any rate, the putative fact that certain pairs of words appear the same number of times in the Quran does not indicate a divinely inspired origin to me.  It looks like nothing so much as human manipulation of the text.  Ockham's Razor would lead us to go with that explanation:  We have people writing down a book.  Those same people were quite capable of adding or subtracting a word or two (or three or n), even of saying that Allah inspired them to do so. We certainly don't need a supernatural entity to explain it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What is the word for imposing patterns where there should be none..?

A couple of my favorite words describe this:

 I think the most applicable would be "apophenia."  However, there may be an element of "pareidolia" as well.  Even if not, it's a good word to know.

[Asmodean]

"pareidolia"

  I'm-a memorize that.

[iSok]

World: 115
Hereafter: 115

Is that the sum of letters in an alphabet..? Which one..? If latin derivates, then it would be off by several points depending on the country of origin. Not all countries using latin lettering have the same number of letters and the special characters don't always come at the very end.

Seven heavens: 7
Creation of the seven heavens: 7

Faith: 25
Infidelity: 25

Paradise: 77
Hell: 77

Satan: 88
Angels: 88

Life: 145
Death: 145

Man: 23
Woman: 23

Is this coincidence? Yes/No

I don't really know how you achieved those numerical value, so I can not make a proper response. However, I think this is more the case of imposing a pattern onto the words rather than finding one already there. That means, in VERY short and incomplete words, NO, not a coincidence.

No, this list is not about numerical values...
It's very simple.

In this piece of text for example.

Muslims hold that the Qur’an is the verbal divine guidance and moral direction for mankind. Muslims also consider the original Arabic verbal text to be the final revelation of God.


Muslims - 2
Verbal - 2
the - 3


Do you understand what I mean?
You can find the word 'Life' for example written/mentioned in the Qur'an 145 times, same counts for 'Death'.
This is the same for the whole list I posted earlier.

So you consider this as coincidence?