The hackenslash Challenge (split)

[iSok]

As for the logic of addition... E=m+c+2, yes? E being the energy, m being the mass, c being the light speed constant and 2 being 2..?

.....?...what?

If you have the letters 'I, R, O and N', you add them up and they form a word. I + R + O + N = IRON
If they represent a mathematical value, you add them up....and you'll get 26....It can't be more clear than that...



The elements you are talking about, are probably not stated in the Qur'an.
Iron itself is very important for mankind.

I study structural engineering.

Within 20 a 30 years, concrete buildings will not be build anymore. (environmental polution)
Structures will be (mainly) made of steel, timber and glass(Carbon + Iron mainly).

So Iron as an element is very important. We see this in our buildings, bridges and tunnels.
It's not really easy to replace this element by another for the purpose of Engineering.
Some elements have better ability's , but are very expensive to manufacture.

Without Iron, the world would have looked very different than as it is now today.
If it wasn't for Iron, heavie structures like medieval castles would be still very common. (Not everyone would have a shelter)
Skyscrapers can only be build by using steel.
Any s.engineer will tell you this.
Iron also plays a very important part in your body...
I am not a medical doctor, but could we have existed without Iron?
Are there complex organism who do not use Iron?

The Qur'an points out that Iron comes from outer space (Our solar system did not reach the high temperature you need for the forming of Iron).
The Qur'an says that it litteraly has been 'sent down' for the benefits of mankind.

I guess that is the reason Iron has been mentioned in the Qur'an.
The fact that I just presented, gives the number 26 when you add up the values.



Iron is called 'Hadid' in the Qur'an.

Ha + D + I + D = HADID
8   + 4 + 10 + 4 = 26 (Atomic number of Iron)


My point is, that it cannot be just coincidence.
You say, it is coincidence.

[Asmodean]

The elements you are talking about, are probably not stated in the Qur'an.

Ok. Let me re-state. Nitrogen, Hydrogen, the inert gases and Oxygen, also known as "air". Do their names add up to their atomic numbers?

Silicon? Which, combined with oxygen can make glass. Not a word about glass in your book..?

Iron itself is very important for mankind.

...So?

I study structural engineering.

Within 20 a 30 years, concrete buildings will not be build anymore. (environmental polution)
Structures will be probably made of steel (Carbon + Iron mainly).

I fail to see your point. Oh, and you *really* don't want to try invoking win-by-education with me without even knowing what I do for a living.

So Iron as an element is very important. We see this in our buildings, bridges and tunnels.

How unimaginative...  :|

MY point is that you are manufacturing evidence. You are using the exact operation which would yield the correct answer to support your position, while the calculation itself is disputable. Point invalid until the necessity of mathematical addition, rather than other operations, is demonstrated.

You did not answer my question and I won't bother re-quoting. Answer it directly, please. If you add up the letters needed for the elements given, will their names match their atomic numbers?

[Asmodean]

As for the logic of addition... E=m+c+2, yes? E being the energy, m being the mass, c being the light speed constant and 2 being 2..?

.....?...what?

If you have the letters 'I, R, O and N', you add them up and they form a word. I + R + O + N = IRON
If they represent a mathematical value, you add them up....and you'll get 26....It can't be more clear than that...

What makes you think that the numeric value of "I" is, for instance, 4..? Its place in the alphabet? Justify, please. Why does that make sense?

What makes you think that i+r+o+n yields 26? Why not 22, with one of the letters having a negative value of 4? Why should, for instance, a letter used twice not be multiplied by two the second time? Why is there a plus between the third and fourth letter, rather than an exponent?

You can not compare grammr to mathematics. Imposing mathematical addition on grammar yields bullshit, as does the reverse. For instance, because c+a+t yields a cat, and Schrödinger had one in a box, energy can be calculated as c+a+t, yes? Since a also stands for acceleration and t stands for time..?

[DJAkuma]

It makes perfect sense that they would mention iron being sent from heaven, the first uses of iron were of meteoric iron before it was known it could be smelted from iron ore from the ground.

As far as the numerology stuff goes...adding the letters up and getting 26 really is just a coincidence, if you break it down further you get 8, or oxygen. You only stop at 26 because it's a number that seems significant.
You can take almost any word and use numerology to come up with a number that seems special...

bullshit
b=2, u=6, l=3, l=3, s=3, h=5, i=1, t=4,
Total= 27
2+7
Total= 9

OMG, my neighbor had 9 cows, that can't possibly be coincidence.

I'd like to see more information about your assertion that concrete is being replaced by steel and wood in construction, a quick google search turns up a lot of information on how they're making stronger types of concrete.

[Asmodean]

I'd like to see more information about your assertion that concrete is being replaced by steel and wood in construction, a quick google search turns up a lot of information on how they're making stronger types of concrete.

Although some within engineering circles fantasize about that, it won't happen any time soon. Steel is versatile, but a poor replacement for concrete for a whole host of reasons. Wood is... Wood.

[iSok]

I fail to see your point. Oh, and you *really* don't want to try invoking win-by-education with me without even knowing what I do for a living.

I am curious, tell me. It certainly does make money as you said.

How unimaginative...   Iron is also the business end of hemoglobin in blood. Point, please.

I already said that
[/quote]

It IS easy to replace it. Just impractical.

By which element would you replace it?

No.

Do explain, you are about to resolve a great question in the field of engineering.

One just did. Oh, it's expensive as hell, but you do not NEED iron to build a decent sky scraper.

Expensive, because  other elements are either very rare, or too expensive to manufacture.

AND in my car example. Your point is still not made.

My point

Incorrect on several levels. Please substantiate and expand.

What part?

And because we know that humans can not exist as we are today, and as we have been in the past, without iron... That is just nonsense. Iron preceded humans.

So without Iron, the world would look exactly as it does today?

Yes, but you added the numbers, which is clearly uncalled for.

It's still surprising that the word forms 26 when you add the letters up (the most logical way)

MY point is that you are manufacturing evidence. You are using the exact operation which would yield the correct answer to support your position, while the calculation itself is disputable. Point invalid until the necessity of mathematical addition, rather than other operations, is demonstrated.

You did not answer my question and I won't bother re-quoting. Answer it directly, please. If you add up the letters needed for the elements given, will their names match their atomic numbers?

Those elements you mentioned are not too be found in the Qur'an.
The Arabic language is not a miracle language, but the content of the Quran is in my opinion.
So for your answer (which questions wether a language has links with science) the answer is no.
As for Iron in the Qur'an, it's a fact that it forms 26 when you add up the numbers.

(1) You attack this fact by saying that I just add up the numbers and this way 26 forms.
However, here the most logical thing to do, is to add up the numbers (just like adding up the letters to form a word).

(2) You say that other elements could also have mentioned in the Qur'an. I pointed out earlier that the Qur'an is
a book about signs (aya means sign) not about science.

While we are talking about numbers, I pointed earlier about this one.


Sea(water) is mentioned 32 times in the Quran
land (dryland) is mentioned 13 times in the Quran

Just to try it out, it would be logic to divide 13 by 32.
Percentage of water: 32 divided by 45 x 100 = 71.1111111111%

What about this?

[Whitney]

I'd like to see more information about your assertion that concrete is being replaced by steel and wood in construction, a quick google search turns up a lot of information on how they're making stronger types of concrete.

I disagree with his comment about concrete being phased out due to environmental concerns (or that it is being phased out for any reason), it can be an environmentally friendly building material,  It contains recycled materials, is locally produced, creates long lived structures, can enhance energy performance, and can be used to help create sustainable sites.  Here's a site that explains it: http://www.cement.org/buildings/green_leed.asp  For what it's worth, I am a LEED AP which means I passed a test of my knowledge concerning green building materials and practices.

[iSok]

I'd like to see more information about your assertion that concrete is being replaced by steel and wood in construction, a quick google search turns up a lot of information on how they're making stronger types of concrete.

I disagree with his comment about concrete being phased out due to environmental concerns (or that it is being phased out for any reason), it can be an environmentally friendly building material,  It contains recycled materials, is locally produced, creates long lived structures, can enhance energy performance, and can be used to help create sustainable sites.  Here's a site that explains it: http://www.cement.org/buildings/green_leed.asp  For what it's worth, I am a LEED AP which means I passed a test of my knowledge concerning green building materials and practices.

My professor specialised in the field of Concrete and Steel structures gave a lecture about this phenomenon last week.
Environmental rules are becoming more and more strict, and in the end concrete manufacturers
can no longer catch up with the environmental rules..........
However lets not derail the topic, I started the post about Iron....


@Djakuma...

The numerology I am talking about comes form the Arabic Adjab system (used since the 8th century).



حَـدِيۡدَ (Iron in Arabic)



Ø­ÙŽ
دِ
ÙŠÛ¡
دَ
See the tabel above, add the values of these letters and you'll get 26.



Once again Asmodean (see my previous post too..)

What about this?

Sea(water) is mentioned 32 times in the Quran
land (dryland) is mentioned 13 times in the Quran

Just to try it out, it would be logic to divide 13 by 32.
Percentage of water on Earth compared with landmass: 32 divided by 45 x 100 = 71.1111111111%

[Asmodean]

I am curious, tell me.

No.

It certainly does make money as you said.

Yes.

By which element would you replace it?

Carbon, mostly. A few others.

Do explain, you are about to resolve a great question in the field of engineering.

HA! No... I am not. There is no big issue there. Do not turn a mosquito into a whale.

You can use a frame reinforced with carbon fiber, for instance. Expensive and time consuming, so very impractical, but doable enough. There is also ceramics. Basically, what I am saying is that a steel skeleton can be exchanged with a composite one.

Expensive, because  other elements are either very rare, or too expensive to manufacture.

There is a difference between "you can't do something without A" and "It is impractical to use something other than A to do something"

What part?

The whole sentence, really. Its point.

So without Iron, the world would look exactly as it does today?

Quite possibly. Depends on the distance you are looking from, I guess. What's your point? That iron is somehow unique compared to other elements..? Well, so is hydrogen. Oh, and Kalium... And Sulphur. And Oxygen. And... You get the idea. Iron is no more special - actually less so - than several other chemical elements.

It's still surprising that the word forms 26 when you add the leeters up (the most logical way)

E=m+c+2 is NOT logical. It's gibberish. How is it more logical in your example? And no, it is not surprising at all since you produce the evidence in order to manufacture a connection between science and a book, written long before the age of science. There is none, really. Wanting there to be one does not ake it so, unfortunately.

A man of straw... Like in that Wizard of Australia tale...  

Those elements you mentioned are not too be found in the Qur'an.
The Arabic language is not a miracle language, but the content of the Quran is in my opinion.
So for your answer (which questions wether a language has links with science) the answer is no.
As for Iron in the Qur'an, it's a fact that it forms 26 when you add up the numbers.

So it works for iron, and nothing else..? How is that then a valid mathematical model?

(1) You attack this fact by saying that I just add up the numbers and this way 26 forms.
However, here the most logical thing to do, is to add up the numbers (just like adding up the letters to form a word).

You are hanging on the minor point. Yes, I dispute the "fact" and the "logic" behind it as presented by you. It is a man of straw. Just like in that Wizard of Australia tale.

(2) You say that other elements could also have mentioned in the Qur'an. I pointed out earlier that the Qur'an is
a book about signs (aya means sign) not about science.

And yet iron is an exception... How very... Interesting. Or was it hypocritical..? I always confuse those expressions...

While we are talking about numbers, I pointed earlier about this one.


Sea(water) is mentioned 32 times in the Quran
land (dryland) is mentioned 13 times in the Quran

Just to try it out, it would be logic to divide 13 by 32.
Percentage of water: 32 divided by 45 x 100 = 71.1111111111%

What about this?

For starters, it's wrong. (Well, inaccurate in regard to what it is supposed to signify)

Where exactly is the logic of dividing by that number..? I thought we have agreed ADDITION was the key..?

Present PROOF OF CONCEPT. Do not just claim "logic".

EDIT: Also, what is the significance of 71% compared to, for instance, 96%?

[iSok]

Carbon, mostly. A few others.

I stopped reading when you said this.......
Now I am really curious what you do for a living.....
(Steel is a composite by the way....)

[Asmodean]

I stopped reading when you said this.......
Now I am really curious what you do for a living.....

You disregard carbon based on..? Would love to hear you out-steel composites.

[iSok]

I stopped reading when you said this.......
Now I am really curious what you do for a living.....

You disregard carbon based on..? Would love to hear you out-steel composites.

Once again Asmodean. What do you do for a living?
As I'm really curious........you still did not answer this.

HA! No... I am not. There is no big issue there. Do not turn a mosquito into a whale.

You can use a frame reinforced with carbon fiber, for instance. Expensive and time consuming, so very impractical, but doable enough. There is also ceramics. Basically, what I am saying is that a steel skeleton can be exchanged with a composite one.

You claim a lot of things.

- High structures like the Burj Khalifa can be build with carbon fiber....? (Please do explain this)
- Concrete structures with reinforced fibre structures are expensive and time consuming (They are actually not, most of the time pre-cast and very cheap)
- 'There is also ceramics'.....concrete is a ceramic..you can not build a skyscraper with concrete. Ceramic materials can endure a lot of pressure
 but when it comes to tension, they crumble pretty fast... Ceramic materials were always available, but with the coming of Iron during the industrial age.
 High rise buildings were possible for the first time, because of the iron that was used in concrete, so concrete could also endure more tension than without.
- Steel is a composite (Iron and Carbon)...it's not an element as you think it is....

See below.




Concrete which is a ceramic, can endure good pressure but  barely tension.
A certain span L endures tension at the bottom and pressure at the top.
Concrete lacks of enduring tension, therefore during pre-cast the concrete
is reinforced with steel at the bottom, so it can also endure tension.

A steel skeleton cannot be replaced by any material, unless you want to make it with titanium
or something. (Start with making your own car of gold)

None of your points have any value. It's as if you say the Earth is flat....and keep claiming that....you do condemn certain religous groups for that.
I lack in many..many things knowledge, but I just don't claim things........I keep silent and ask if I don't know.

[Whitney]

I'm not sure what the whole point with iron and steel is but iSok is right about tension not being a friend of concrete.  If we didn't have steel we'd still be able to build stuff, just not as high (or perhaps we would have developed some other material by this point).

[Recusant]

I find it amusing that gematria and isopsephy are being used here as some sort of method for "proving" a scientific revelation in the Quran.  Neither method has any basis in science at all.  This is mystic tripe served up by those with too much time on their hands. You might as well tell us that your psychic told you that the Quran holds all the secrets of the universe, iSok.  It would be just as convincing.

[iSok]

I'm not sure what the whole point with iron and steel is but iSok is right about tension not being a friend of concrete.  If we didn't have steel we'd still be able to build stuff, just not as high (or perhaps we would have developed some other material by this point).

Topic derailed a bit.
I said that Iron is important for man, without Iron the world we see today would not be like it is.
(High structures would not be possible, the introduction of Iron in the industrial age made that possible)

Asmodean denies that, see my post.
We are still looking for new materials, but steel is by far the best composite that can be found.