The hackenslash Challenge (split)

[iSok]

They refer tot this verse probably.

(79:30) “And thereafter spread out the earth.”


The Arabic verse goes like this.

وَاÙ,,ۡاَرۡضَ بَعۡدَ ذٰÙ,,ِكَ دَحٰٮهَا ؕ‏ (79:30)

‘Wala arda  bagh zaleka dahaha’

They translated the final word in the verse as ‘spread out’.
dahaha in arabic has two meanings.

- ‘Egg shaped’ which comes from the word ‘Duhiya’ (It refers to the egg of an ostrich)
- ‘Expansion’, the  Qur’an claims in some other verses also that the Earth used to be smaller, and it was expanded.


@Recusant,

If I said 100 years ago, that the universe was expanding, I would be mocked at.

(And We have built the heavens with Our own hands; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.) (51:47)


I have on exam left, which is tommorow.
It's about architecture, unfortunately I can't study for it.
I will either pass, or fail

I'm more the math's guy.

[LegendarySandwich]

They refer tot this verse probably.

(79:30) “And thereafter spread out the earth.”


The Arabic verse goes like this.

وَاÙ,,ۡاَرۡضَ بَعۡدَ ذٰÙ,,ِكَ دَحٰٮهَا ؕ‏ (79:30)

‘Wala arda  bagh zaleka dahaha’

They translated the final word in the verse as ‘spread out’.
dahaha in arabic has two meanings.

- ‘Egg shaped’ which comes from the word ‘Duhiya’ (It refers to the egg of an ostrich)
- ‘Expansion’, the  Qur’an claims in some other verses also that the Earth used to be smaller, and it was expanded.

You should have read the article.

Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich. The verb Da'ha (Ydahoo: present tense) is not derived from Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, because names are derived from the "verb of origin" (fi'l al masdar), and the verb of origin is not derived from a name. The verb of origin is "dahawa" from which the verb "da'ha" and "yadhoo" are derived, and so is the name of the noun denoting the egg. The verb "da'aha" does not mean "kaw'wara" (made round) or made something in the shape of an egg, whether it is an ostrich egg or a chicken's egg. As a matter of fact, the verb "da'ha" means the complete opposite to the concept of the roundness. Here is what "Al-munjid fil'lugha wal'alam" has to say:

    "da'ha da'hwan ... God `da'ha' earth that is `basataha'."
       And that is exactly what Al-Jalalayn has said.
    "da'ha idhiwa'an: `inbisatan'." (that is: flattening)
    "al-udh'y, al-idhi'y, al-udhu'wa, al-udhi'ya: The egg of the ostrich in the sand."

We must pay attention to what Al-Munjid is saying here: "The egg of the ostrich ‘in the sand’" and the following is the reason for this expression:

When the female ostrich fears a danger threatening her egg, she immediately digs into the sand to hide the egg, then "tadhoo" (flattens) the earth above it, so that it would not be seen by the vultures of the air who are always in search of such a delicacy for their next meal. Therefore, the word "al-udhu'wa" is used as a name of the ostrich egg since it is something (with the sand) flattened (over it). That is where the name came from. The Arabic dictionary never states that the verb "da'ha" means "made round" or "made in the shape of the egg of an ostrich".

Other verses in the Qur'an stated that earth is flat using other words. All of these words are interpreted as "flat" and none of them has been interpreted as round.

We read in Sura 96:6 (Ash'shams): "Wal'ardu wa ma ta'haha".
The word "Tahaha" is interpreted in Tafsir Al-Jalalayn as "He made it flat". In Munjid Al-lugha Wal'alam, the word "Taha" is also interpreted as "to flatten or to stretch". Then, the noun "At'taha" is interpreted as "a flat part of the earth". Then, Al-Munjid gives a sentence as an example to confirm the meaning of "taha" as "to make a certain thing flat".

In Sura 15:19 (Al-Hajar), we read: "wal'arda madadnaha wa'alkayna feeha rawasi".
The word "madadnaha" is from the verb "madda", which is a very simple and easy word to understand. Not even a little Arabic child would use this word to describe the shape of a watermelon or a ball. It is the most simple way to describe something flat.

If Muhammad or the author of the Qur'an really had known that the earth is round, and had wanted to mention this fact in the book, he could have used a more simple word in Arabic to put an end to this puzzling issue. We have no doubt that Muhammad was aware of the existence of other words in the Arabic language that can describe the shape of something round. In fact, we read in sura 81:1 (At'Takweer - meaning: Rounding!):

    "Itha'sh-shamsu kuwirat": "When the sun is folded up."

In this verse, Muhammad is predicting that "the sun shall be folded up" or "shall become rounded" (which would be a better translation). This means first of all that Muhammad believed that the sun is also flat and that it will become round when the hour comes. And this also means that he knows that there is a better word to describe a round shape. Therefore: Why he didn't use this term to to spare the Muslims this confusion?

Yes, Muhammad did indeed believe that the sun is flat as Al-Jalalayn comments on this verse by stating: "`kuwirat' that is `lufifat' i.e. folded up and its light taken."

Bassam Darwich

[iSok]

For example, there are verses which talk about 'seven heavens'.
We don't have a clue what that means..
Something, I hope will be discovered soon )
http://www.answering-christianity.com/e ... _earth.htm

[Whitney]

That's quite incorrect, whitnay. Not all faith is blind.

Definition of FAITH
1
a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2
a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God
 (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

3
: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

Now what kind of faith are you willing to argue is based on proof?...aside from definition 1, which is not what we are discussing.

[pilchardo]

It's kind of pointless to post the dictionary definition if you're then going to decide what is and what is not to be discussed. It's an open forum, Whitnay.

[Ultima22689]

It's kind of pointless to post the dictionary definition if you're then going to decide what is and what is not to be discussed. It's an open forum, Whitnay.

[Whitney]

It's kind of pointless to post the dictionary definition if you're then going to decide what is and what is not to be discussed. It's an open forum, Whitnay.

If you can't contribute positively to the discussions then don't post.

We are not discussing people who are faithful to spouses, the topic at hand is obviously religious faith...if you can't even figure that out then maybe you should go back to trolling 4chan.

If you continue to disrespect me, other members, or the forum I'll ban you.

[pilchardo]

It's kind of pointless to post the dictionary definition if you're then going to decide what is and what is not to be discussed. It's an open forum, Whitnay.

If you can't contribute positively to the discussions then don't post.

We are not discussing people who are faithful to spouses, the topic at hand is obviously religious faith...if you can't even figure that out then maybe you should go back to trolling 4chan.

If you continue to disrespect me, other members, or the forum I'll ban you.

I have no intention of disrespecting you, and I apologise if you took offence, even though it wasn't my intention to upset you in any way. But by the same token, please don't accuse me of trolling 4chan. Thank you.

[Recusant]

If I said 100 years ago, that the universe was expanding, I would be mocked at.

(And We have built the heavens with Our own hands; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.) (51:47)


I have on exam left, which is tommorow.
It's about architecture, unfortunately I can't study for it.
I will either pass, or fail  

I'm more the math's guy.

I'm glad to hear that spending time here isn't going to be a detriment to tomorrow's exam.  I hope that you do well in it; good luck!

Now let's look at this aya 51:47--

First, I'd like to compare the translation you've provided with other translations of the same aya:

1) (Provided by iSok [date unknown]) And We have built the heavens with Our own hands; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.

2) (Translation by Maulana Muhammad Ali [1917]) And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and We are Makers of the vast extent.

3) (Translation by Marmaduke Pickthal [1930]) We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

4) (Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali [1934]) With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.

Obviously, the translation you chose is different than the other three.  I have to ask; why is that?  Could it be that your translation was made after the relatively recent scientific discoveries regarding the expansion of the universe were made?  That this translation was deliberately crafted to highlight a supposed miraculous prediction in the Quran?   Why is the word "steadily" included in the translation you give, but that word (and/or concept) is not mentioned in the other three translations? When exactly was the translation which you quote made, and by whom?

So obviously we have an issue with how this aya is translated. Perhaps we might find what the translated aya means by looking at the aya which immediately follows it; 51:48.

1) (Translation by Maulana Muhammad Ali [1917])  And the earth, We have spread it out. How well We prepared it!

2) (Translation by Marmaduke Pickthal [1930]) And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)!

3) (Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali [1934]) And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out!

In both of these ayat, the same word (سÙ... Ù...رفوع) is used.  Are you going to now tell me that according to the Quran, the earth is expanding?

I think what we have here is a case of selective translation. In fact the Quran did not predict modern cosmology, rather the translation was changed to reflect modern cosmology.

[Whitney]

I have on exam left, which is tommorow.
It's about architecture, unfortunately I can't study for it.
I will either pass, or fail  

my favorite subject
can't study for it...hmm...must be a design problem?

[DJAkuma]

If I said 100 years ago, that the universe was expanding, I would be mocked at.

(And We have built the heavens with Our own hands; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.) (51:47)


I have on exam left, which is tommorow.
It's about architecture, unfortunately I can't study for it.
I will either pass, or fail  

I'm more the math's guy.

I'm glad to hear that spending time here isn't going to be a detriment to tomorrow's exam.  I hope that you do well in it; good luck!

Now let's look at this aya 51:47--

First, I'd like to compare the translation you've provided with other translations of the same aya:

1) (Provided by iSok [date unknown]) And We have built the heavens with Our own hands; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.

2) (Translation by Maulana Muhammad Ali [1917]) And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and We are Makers of the vast extent.

3) (Translation by Marmaduke Pickthal [1930]) We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

4) (Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali [1934]) With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.

Obviously, the translation you chose is different than the other three.  I have to ask; why is that?  Could it be that your translation was made after the relatively recent scientific discoveries regarding the expansion of the universe were made?  That this translation was deliberately crafted to highlight a supposed miraculous prediction in the Quran?   Why is the word "steadily" included in the translation you give, but that word (and/or concept) is not mentioned in the other three translations? When exactly was the translation which you quote made, and by whom?

So obviously we have an issue with how this aya is translated. Perhaps we might find what the translated aya means by looking at the aya which immediately follows it; 51:48.

1) (Translation by Maulana Muhammad Ali [1917])  And the earth, We have spread it out. How well We prepared it!

2) (Translation by Marmaduke Pickthal [1930]) And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)!

3) (Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali [1934]) And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out!

In both of these ayat, the same word (سÙ... Ù...رفوع) is used.  Are you going to now tell me that according to the Quran, the earth is expanding?

I think what we have here is a case of selective translation. In fact the Quran did not predict modern cosmology, rather the translation was changed to reflect modern cosmology.

Isn't it kind of moot if those meanings and interpretations only come about when translated to english? That tells me that the translator is fishing for meaning that may or may not be there. Does it or can it come out the same way if translated to russian? Japanese? German? etc?

[Stevil]

it is We who are steadily expanding it.

As far as my understanding goes, the Universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Not steady at all. Oh, well.

[Recusant]

Isn't it kind of moot if those meanings and interpretations only come about when translated to english? That tells me that the translator is fishing for meaning that may or may not be there. Does it or can it come out the same way if translated to russian? Japanese? German? etc?

I'm sure the same thing can be done when the Arabic is translated into languages other than English.  I've corresponded with a gentleman who used to make his living as a translator of Arabic.  He describes Arabic as a very poetic language, the words of which can (and do) have several meanings.  Context is extremely important in coming close to the correct translation-- he feels that it's more so with Arabic than with most other languages.  In other words; it's an issue with the original language of the Quran, rather than with the languages into which it's translated. ISok's translation is no doubt a valid one; my point is that it is (from what I can tell) a recent translation, and the motive for the change is what I'm questioning.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As far as my understanding goes, the Universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Not steady at all. Oh, well.

 That is my understanding as well.  Very good point, sir!

[iSok]

I have on exam left, which is tommorow.
It's about architecture, unfortunately I can't study for it.
I will either pass, or fail  

my favorite subject
You have to 'feel' architecture if you want to be good at it.

Last year, I talked after a speech with my Professor, he thought us 'Dynamic architecture'.
After his speech, we discussed over two hours about architecture.
After two hours he said; 'Son, I think you made a wise decision that you choose structural engineering over architecture'.
I couldn't agree more



@Recusant.

My respect towards you for looking more deep in this matter.
I do like the fact; that you investigate for yourself, it keeps the debate alive.
So thank you for your new insights.


I mentioned it here before I think, I’m not an expert in Arabic, and certainly not an expert in the Arabic style of the Qur’an. However, I’ll try to explain a bit.

Whenever one reads a verse in the Qur’an, it contains a lot of meanings.
We Muslims call it ‘light upon light’. This is the case in the whole Qur’an, every single verse of it.

I hope you read my previous post about the rather simple aya (sign) 79:30

(79:30) “And thereafter spread out the earth.”

I explained that the translator; translated the Arabic word ‘Dahaha’ into ‘spread’.
In Arabic ‘Dahaha’ has two meanings.
The first one is ‘Egg-ness’
The second one is ‘Expanded-ness’.
(Read my previous post)

So the Qur’an here claims that the Earth is round and used to be smaller, and that God expanded it.
This is an example why the Qur’an in depth can only be understood in Arabic.
You could ask: Why did God do that?
That’s a different debate, we can open a new topic and start talking about that.


Dr. Lauren Vaglieri (Italian orientalist at the University of Naples)

The Miracle of Islam par excellence is the Quran, through which a constant and unbroken tradition transmits to us news of an absolute certainty.
This is a book which cannot be imitated. Each of its expressions is a comprehensive one, and yet it is of proper size, neither too long nor too short.
 Its style is original. There is no model for this style in Arab literature of the times preceding it.
The effect which it produces on the human soul is obtained without any adventitious aid through its own inherent excellences.
The verses are equally eloquent all through the text, even when they deal with topics, such as commandments and prohibitions, which must necessarily affect its tone.
Stories of Prophets, descriptions of the beginning and the end of the world, enumerations and expositions of the
divine attributes are repeated but repeated in a way which is so impressive that they do not weaken the effect.
The text proceeds from one topic to another without losing its power.
Depth and sweetness, qualities which generally do not go together, are found together here, where each rhetoric figure finds a perfect application. . . .
We find there vast stores of knowledge which are beyond the capacity of the most intelligent of men, the greatest of philosophers and the ablest of politicians.

Professor A. Guillaume (Orientalist)

The Qurān is one of the world’s classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It (The Holy Qurān) has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear.
Many Christian Arabs speak of its style with warm admiration, and most Arabists acknowledge its excellence. . . .
Indeed it may be affirmed that within the literature of the Arabs, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, there is nothing to compare with it.


A few translations of the original Arabic verse.

Sahih International
And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander.

Muhsin Khan
With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.

Pickthall
We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

Yusuf Ali
With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

Shakir
And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

   (Ù,,ÙŽÙ...ُوسِعُونَ وَإِنَÙ'ا بِأَيۡيÙ'دٍ۬ بَنَيۡنَـٰهَا ÙˆÙŽÙ±Ù,,سَÙ'Ù...َآءَ (51:47

“Wasama’ A ba’naina ha - be Aidiwoe wa ina la moesighoen”

‘Moeshigoen’ is the plural present participle of the verb “Aus’a”
Which means ‘to make wider, to expand, to extend, to vastness’

Some Islamic scholars questioned this. Muhammad Hamdiullah for example states that it means that the heavens are expanding, but he adds a question mark. He himself did not understand it.

Another Islamic scholars; Abdul Ala Maududi who passed away in 1979 (way before this 'Science in the Quran!').
He translated the Qur’an, his book is called: Tafhim-al-Qur’an (In urdu language).
A very popular translation in the urdu language and has recently been translated in English.
This is the link of his translation (I use this one a lot): http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php

He translates verse (79:46) as followed.
“And heaven â€" We made it with Our Own Power and We have the Power to do so.” (79:46)

When someone translates the Qur’an, he also adds a so called ‘Tafseer’. Tafseer gives additional about the verse and also other meanings. In his tafseer he writes this:

“The word must' (pl. musi'un) may mean the one who possesses power and means, and also the one who can extend and expand something.
According to the first meaning, the verse would mean: "We have built this heaven by Our own might and not with somebody else's help, and its erection was in no way beyond Us.
Then how can you ever conceive that We shall not be able to recreate it ?" According to the second meaning, it would mean:
"This huge universe that We have created, is not a finished work, but We are expanding it continuously, and new and ever new manifestations of Our creation are appearing in it every moment. How do you then think that such a marvelous Creator would not be able to repeat His creation.”

So people with no knowledge about the expanding of the Universe would rather choose for the translation 'Power'.
(See Hamidullah, he was afraid to claim that the universe was expanding).
Translators with knowledge about the expanding, choose to translate it to 'expanding universe'.
For them it's a pretty logical explanation of the verse.
'Power' and 'Expanding' in this verse, two different approaches.

I hope it’s a bit more clear now after explaining this.
Many translator seek a certain style, they have their own style to translate the Qur’an. Translation itself is a mere interpretation of the Qur’an.
Translators often try to translate the Qur'an in the way that other people understand what the Qur'an wants.
An important aspect of the Qur'an is it's dialogue with the person that is reading it (asking questions), many translators are keen on keeping that intact.
That aspect makes the person think, you can almost say the Qur'an is trying to brainwash the reader.

[Recusant]

Thank you for your reply, iSok.  I'm well aware of the concept of "light upon light."  Basically it means that because of the multiple definitions which words in Arabic have, the Quran can be interpreted in many ways.  I think your reply shows that until modern science had shown that the universe was expanding, the verse you use to show a miraculous foretelling of modern science was not understood in the way that your translator used it.  You choose to see it as miraculous; for this I do not fault you.  You (and others who subscribe to these ideas) may try to say that infidels such as myself should see the fact that the verse can be re-translated to reflect modern science as a sign of the miraculous nature of the Quran.  I do not see it that way.  When words can have so many meanings (as is the case in Arabic) then it's inevitable that people will change their understanding of the writing to reflect the modern world when it suits their agenda.  This is not miraculous, and is not a sign to me of a divine origin for your holy book.