The hackenslash Challenge (split)

[pilchardo]

Isok, I meant that if the knowledge can come from another planet, then why not this one? I'm not saying it did, I'm just posing the possibility.

[hackenslash]

It's upto you to say that it's wrong.

Err, no. It's up to you to support your guff. It is only up to me to voice my objections. When I erect any claims, I will be more than happy to support them.

I see those verses as.

Mountains <--> Less earthquakes
Mountains move like clouds.


In your eternal conquest to deny God, even claiming this goes a bit too far...

What have I claimed?

To be honest, you've missed a trick. If you had said that that sura was to be translated as 'even the most solid of objects is comprised mostly of empty space', I would have had little response, because it actually could be reasonably translated as that, and it would at least fit the argument.

Still, it has Texas Sharpshooter written all over it, as do most examples of such obfuscatory wibble when applied to current knowledge.

[Sophus]

@Sophus, I'm looking forward to fornicating a lot.

Nonetheless poetry or not...it's amazing that in all of thoses verses he (if it was by man) didn't make single mistake.

It says they would take flight like clouds.

27:88 And thou seest the hills thou deemest solid flying with the flight of clouds: the doing of Allah Who perfecteth all things. Lo! He is Informed of what ye do.

Earlier in the chapter it makes another mistake:

27:61 Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein, and hath set a barrier between the two seas ?

The earth is not fixed.

[hackenslash]

Nonetheless poetry or not...it's amazing that in all of thoses verses he (if it was by man) didn't make single mistake.

Of course he didn't make any mistakes! He didn't actually say anything. It is only you coming along after the fact and painting targets on barn doors that makes it look remotely like he did. It's all obfuscatory wibble.

[iSok]

I'm not talking about the vocabulary, I'm talking about there being no reasonable way to translate that sura as what we know as plate tectonics.

It's an interpretation Hackenslash from the original arabic.
The Quran's original form is Arabic, Arabic and the Arabs themselves were not randomly choosen as the 'people of the final message'.
There are a few reasons for that..

However I pointed out above, that the sura very likely suggests this.
The Quran itself is not a book of science but a book of signs. The knowledge
back then was quite backward....

For example this verse.

"And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the living creatures that He has scattered through them: and He has power to gather them together when He wills.(The Noble Quran, 42:29)"

When they heard this, they were quite shocked that they were not the only creatures in the universe. It lead many people to doubt.
Even now many people would not believe that we are not alone in this vast universe.


Another 'hidden' sign is for example the water-land mass ratio.


Sea(water) is mentioned 32 times in the Quran
land (dryland) is mentioned 13 times in the Quran

Percentage of water: 32 divided by 45 x 100 =  71.1111111111%

Why would a man in the desert mention the sea in his man-made book 32 times
and land just 13 times?

[iSok]

@Sophus, I'm looking forward to fornicating a lot.

Nonetheless poetry or not...it's amazing that in all of thoses verses he (if it was by man) didn't make single mistake.

It says they would take flight like clouds.

27:88 And thou seest the hills thou deemest solid flying with the flight of clouds: the doing of Allah Who perfecteth all things. Lo! He is Informed of what ye do.

Earlier in the chapter it makes another mistake:

27:61 Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein, and hath set a barrier between the two seas ?

The earth is not fixed.

(27:88) You now see the mountains and consider them firmly fixed, but then they shall pass away even as clouds pass away. That will be the handiwork of Allah Who has created everything with perfect wisdom. He is well aware of what you do.

It means that mountains look solid and fixed on a steady place.
The same counts for clouds, but if you look at clouds well, they move a bit, so the same can be said about mountains.


Earth fixed?

(27:61) Who is it Who has made the earth a place of resort, and has caused rivers to flow in its midst, and has placed upon it firm mountains, and has placed a barrier between two masses of water? Is there any god associated with Allah (in these tasks)? Nay; but most of them do not know.

Also take a good look at the second part of the verse.


@Hackenslash.

It's not just this ONE thing you can say "hmmm....ok lets consider this as dumb luck or a lie or our misinterpretation.."
If you just see how much the Quran claims..if it was man-written, surely there would be atleast one verse that would totally be wrong.....

Basically there's a whole list..in total of thousand verses...
All would get the same answer: 'hmmm.....dumb luck or misinterpretation..'
And that's just about the 'science'.

There are a few more topics that need to be adressed as 'false'.
You need to find ONE contradiction in the Quran and the origin of the Quran.
The list is pretty long...

not to forget, that we can also add this ( it does play a minor role )
Some of the best people in history would be classified as 'liars', people I would give my life for.
Their entire struggle and their enormous will to spread the word would be regarded as 'foolish'.
The societies they formed and he morals they brought to some societies would be called as 'ignorance'.
The constant persecution they went through, without ever looking for worldy gains would be called 'deluted'.
 
And the final answer would be:
'Science can explain everything and the universe popped out of nowhere'


I'm sorry Hackenslash, but I don't think you can do this...

[Recusant]

Where is there scientific evidence that "mountains stabilize tectonic plates?"  What does that even mean? This sounds like something you got from that obfuscating purveyor of pseudo-science, Harun Yahya.  Show me a reputable geologist who agrees with this theory, please.  By the way, tectonic plates are not stable.  It's well known that they actually drift around quite freely, carrying their mountains with them, when viewed on a geological time scale.

[iSok]

Where is there scientific evidence that "mountains stabilize tectonic plates?"  What does that even mean? This sounds like something you got from that obfuscating purveyor of pseudo-science, Harun Yahya.  

Harun Yahya is not really popular within the muslim community...

Show me a reputable geologist who agrees with this theory, please.

Frank Press in his book 'The Earth'.
“Likewise the Modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960’s”

[Geological Concept of Mountains pp. 44-45]
"Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth."

The theory however is quite new.
Nonetheless it's amazing that the verse DOES point out that mountains move over time.
 

By the way, tectonic plates are not stable.  It's well known that they actually drift around quite freely, carrying their mountains with them, when viewed on a geological time scale.

(27:88) You now see the mountains and consider them firmly fixed, but then they shall pass away even as clouds pass away. That will be the handiwork of Allah Who has created everything with perfect wisdom. He is well aware of what you do.


And what about this?

Sea(water) is mentioned 32 times in the Quran
land (dryland) is mentioned 13 times in the Quran

Percentage of water: 32 divided by 45 x 100 = 71.1111111111%

Dumb luck?

[iSok]

Or this one.


"Do you see who forbids a servant of Ours (God) when he (turns) to pray? Do you see if he who prays follows the guidance and enjoins righteousness? Do you see if he who obstructs rejects (Truth) and turns away? Does he not know that God sees? Let him beware! If he desists not, We (God) will punish him upon his forehead - a lying, sinful forehead!" (Quran 96:9-16)

lying, sinful forehead?
Not lying eyes but lying sinful forehead..

"The frontal lobes are considered our emotional control center and home to our personality. There is no other part of the brain where lesions can cause such a wide variety of symptoms (Kolb & Wishaw, 1990). The frontal lobes are involved in motor function, problem solving, spontaneity, memory, language, initiation, judgement, impulse control, and social and sexual behavior."

[Whitney]

There is no need for all this back and forth.  

If a god or highly intelligent being were inspiring Moh to recite this stuff they could have inspired him to use the correct words.  He could have even made translations in to all past and future world languages just pop out of thin air.

There is nothing impressive about vague passages that refer to fixed mountains not actually being fixed because allah can move them.

[iSok]

There is no need for all this back and forth.  

If a god or highly intelligent being were inspiring Moh to recite this stuff they could have inspired him to use the correct words.  He could have even made translations in to all past and future world languages just pop out of thin air.

There is nothing impressive about vague passages that refer to fixed mountains not actually being fixed because allah can move them.

Yeah He could have, but I don't think that's the way it works.
He can also teleport to this planet so we will all follow the straight path.
It's about faith....


However let me add another fact.

The word 'day' in it's plural form is mentioned 30 times
The word 'day' in it's singular form is mentioned 365 times
the word 'month' is mentioned 12 times.

The lunar year was used in the Arab world back then, so why use this system?

Coincidence?

Like I said before, science is very important in our lives.
Even I (the naive believer) am an university student, in a few years I'll be working on my PhD.

Development of different fields of science is utterly important, my religion even commanded me to do that.
Science can explain a lot.

But I will never say: 'We don't need God, all we need is science'
One meteorite, and it's over with mankind, and yet we think we're on the edge of immortality.

[Recusant]

I did a google books search of Frank Press's Understanding Earth and was unable to find a match for the sentence which you quoted, iSok.  Would you mind providing an edition number and page number, so that I might verify that the quote is accurate, and not taken out of context?  

Regarding the second quote, is it supposed to be from Understanding Earth as well?  If not, who was the author of the book by the name of "Geological Concept of Mountains" and when was it published?

Thank you in advance.

[LegendarySandwich]

Yeah He could have, but I don't think that's the way it works.
He can also teleport to this planet so we will all follow the straight path.
It's about faith....

Why is faith important? Isn't having everybody go to heaven a better thing to do, not preserve some blind faith?

[iSok]

I did a google books search of Frank Press's Understanding Earth and was unable to find a match for the sentence which you quoted, iSok.  Would you mind providing an edition number and page number, so that I might verify that the quote is accurate, and not taken out of context?  

Regarding the second quote, is it supposed to be from Understanding Earth as well?  If not, who was the author of the book by the name of "Geological Concept of Mountains" and when was it published?

Thank you in advance.

It's in 'Earth' (1985) not in 'Understanding earth'.


As for the second book, I think you know it better yourself
After googling I found out it is written by muslims, not valid in this argument I guess.

Here's some more info.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Geology-1359/2009/1/RE-statement-mountains-1.htm

[Recusant]

Would you be surprised, iSok, to hear that when using the same technique to search the 1985 textbook Earth by Frank Press and Raymond Siever, the supposed quote which you used as evidence does not appear?  If you're sure that it does, please supply a page number, as previously requested.  When one reads the supposed quote, it doesn't even seem to make grammatical sense.  I have a feeling that it's actually something that somebody manufactured by combining some sentences from the book.  Feel free to prove me wrong; I can take it.

As for your latest link which you seem to think supports your assertion of "miraculous knowledge" re: mountains stabilizing the earth: it does not say that modern geological theory supports the view that mountains stabilize the earth.  I read the linked page.  Did you?