The purpose of life

[Whitney]

People have intrinsic value to me because I choose to give it to them. Is there a reason why I can't do this?

Because you have essentially, no value in yourself. unless you proclaim yourself to be absolutely meaningful being.  How can you have authority to attach meanings.

As individuals we have the ability to attach personal meaning to whatever we want (why should we have to ask someone else if it is okay to value something?)...doesn't mean anyone else has to find those same things meaningful nor does it mean we are making any claims as to our individual selves being meaningful in the absolute sense.

[defendor]

I personally do not hold hostility to a being I do not believe exists - you are correct, that would be equally ridiculous. However, I am concerned about the actions of those who DO believe their God exists (or pretend to).....the Inquisitions, witch hunts, televangelists who rob people of money, the Catholic Church covering up pedophilia by priests while parents gave them the benefit of the doubt because they were "holy men of God", then providing refuge in the Vatican for many involved in the acts themselves or the cover up, the bombing of abortion clinics, the ostracization of atheists by their family, friends, co-workers because they think atheist = immoral, etc.

Islam has now stepped it up another level with their outright evil activities in the name of their faith.

I will say don't judge a philosophy by its abuse, the actions of its practitioners may not necessarily dictate the tenets of a faith.  I understand your position as an atheist, I disagree with you ha, but I still value you as an eternal being and image bearer of God.  Were you ever a Christian?

 

Here's another example: What would be the chances today of the USA electing a President who was openly atheist even if he was a man of integrity and presented a platform that appealed to most Americans? Answer: Either Zero or close to Zero.

an atheist has no standard for integrity, unless we're assuming he's abiding in the judeo-christian code of ethics, but ya he'd probably fail miserable haha

So my friend, atheists / agnostics like myself speak up because of the harm religion has done throughout the ages up to the present, not because we have a "hostility" toward any particular God we do not believe exists.

I agree, but isn't that survival of the fittest? Where in your atheistic worldview have you changed or associated value with those that cannot survive in this struggle of life?  You are making an assumption that people have value that is unalienable that thus makes them not meaningless. this is basically my argument for everyone else as well, where in the cosmotic notion of meaninglessness do you not only find meaning, but understand what meaning is?

[LegendarySandwich]

Ha I can handle that, but i will continue to reiterate my points until I feel there is a solid answer, i will try and number them out to so we're working with a set standard   .  I believe people have intrinsic meaning and a set of moral standards, but coming from an Atheist world view (which everything is meaningless) 1. How can you (being meaningless) know what meaning is?

If you define meaning as objective and ultimate, then yes, I am meaningless. However, I give myself meaning and value, along with others. What do you mean "how can you know what meaning is?" Meaning is worth. I place worth on me and everyone around me.

2. Have the audacity to completely stand against your own ethos in attaching meaning (assuming that everything is truly meaningless)?

I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about here.

3.  I'm working off the assumption that you want me to take your argument as meaningful, so if what you say is subjective, how can I take it as meaningful?

So, what I say has to have objective meaning in order for you to view it as meaningful? Does everything everyone says have objective meaning then?

[Whitney]

I believe people have intrinsic meaning and a set of moral standards,

You have done nothing to prove this.

but coming from an Atheist world view (which everything is meaningless)

That's not an atheist worldview, that's just what some atheists here are saying about if there is a purpose to life.  Atheist is not a world view, it just is a label used on people who don't believe in a god.  Some atheists (such as atheistic Buddhists) have a worldview which does involve thinking there is an ultimate meaning to life.

1. How can you (being meaningless) know what meaning is?

That question doesn't make any sense.  Why would a being have to have an ultimate meaning or purpose in order to understand the definition of and be able to recognize meaning?

2. Have the audacity to completely stand against your own ethos in attaching meaning (assuming that everything is truly meaningless)?

This is as straw man.  No one has claimed it is wrong to decide for one's self what they want to consider the meaning of life to be as it applies to how they determine what they personally value in life.  The claim is simply that there is no objective meaning to life.

3.  I'm working off the assumption that you want me to take your argument as meaningful, so if what you say is subjective, how can I take it as meaningful?

You know what they say about assume.  No one cares if you accept their subjective meaning of life.  You can make the meaning of life to wear purple underpants ever day if that is your prerogative.

[defendor]

As individuals we have the ability to attach personal meaning to whatever we want (why should we have to ask someone else if it is okay to value something?)...doesn't mean anyone else has to find those same things meaningful nor does it mean we are making any claims as to our individual selves being meaningful in the absolute sense.

How do we not only find the ability to attach meaning, but understand what meaning is, if there is no such thing as meaning?
If everything is meaningless, then attaching meanings to things is also meaningless, which to me contradicts itself. So why even bother attaching meanings to things if it is all meaningless?   Does it make life bearable?

You are assuming that there is meaning in your own being by 1. making arguments that have an assumed meaning 2.  know what meaning is in accordance with your being as meaningful 3. want to find meaning but don't know where to look, so you look at yourself for meaning (which is meaningless) I hope you see that I see this as a very circular argument based on assumptions that there has to be some innate meaning in this cycle, and from an atheistic world view, where does meaning come from?

I agree that you do have meaning and can attach meanings to things, not because everything in the universe is meaningless, but that there is an absolution in the definer of meaning.  This is the hope we have in Christ, that you are meaningful, you are an image bearer of God, that God would send his Son to die on a brutal death on the cross

Now from this perspective, i think the gospel is too good to be true  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zR3h2UsR4

[LegendarySandwich]

If there is nothing absolute to define meanings, then everything you still attach as meaning to other people, is meaningless.  Why are you saying there is meaning in a meaningless world? Isn't that completely contradictory?

What you are saying here is that meaning is meaningless if it's not meaningful.

If we value people for what they are, they are merely conscious dirt, and logically, should be treated as such. So why the illogical notion of attaching a higher meaning to something that in its entire being, has no meaning?  (if you say it's because its human, please define humanity?)

Who decides how we should treat "conscious dirt"? What does logic have to say about how we should treat it?

[defendor]

I believe people have intrinsic meaning and a set of moral standards,

You have done nothing to prove this.

How can I try prove meaning?  By actions that have objective meaning right?

but coming from an Atheist world view (which everything is meaningless)

That's not an atheist worldview, that's just what some atheists here are saying about if there is a purpose to life.  Atheist is not a world view, it just is a label used on people who don't believe in a god.  Some atheists (such as atheistic Buddhists) have a worldview which does involve thinking there is an ultimate meaning to life

.

A belief or disbelief in a higher power radically affects a world view, you essentially make yourself the definer of your own existence (God) and its manifested in either Hedonism or Intellectualism

1. How can you (being meaningless) know what meaning is?

That question doesn't make any sense.  Why would a being have to have an ultimate meaning or purpose in order to understand the definition of and be able to recognize meaning?

You recognize meaning cuz there is something innately meaningful in you (words of eternity are written on every man's heart)  but if there is no such thing as meaning, how can something meaningless recognize meaning if there is no meaning, for it would still be meaningless?

[

quote]  2. Have the audacity to completely stand against your own ethos in attaching meaning (assuming that everything is truly meaningless)?

This is as straw man.  No one has claimed it is wrong to decide for one's self what they want to consider the meaning of life to be as it applies to how they determine what they personally value in life.  The claim is simply that there is no objective meaning to life.

What are you basing this wrong on?  And to know there is no objective meaning to life, would you have to be all knowing and everywhere at once so that you could 100% say there is no meaning?

3.  I'm working off the assumption that you want me to take your argument as meaningful, so if what you say is subjective, how can I take it as meaningful?

You know what they say about assume.  No one cares if you accept their subjective meaning of life.  You can make the meaning of life to wear purple underpants ever day if that is your prerogative.

[/quote]

We are questioning the essence of subjective meaning, on an objective standard of meaning.  For if I am the strongest of the species (survival of the fittest) and I am making my subjective standard authoritative to my own realm, and I say everyone has to agree with me (remember this is subjective), why shouldn't I be able to eradicate their existence because it doesn't agree with me? For the people doing I would be annihilating are just atoms with no value

[LegendarySandwich]

How do we not only find the ability to attach meaning, but understand what meaning is, if there is no such thing as meaning?

There is no such thing as objective meaning.

If everything is meaningless, then attaching meanings to things is also meaningless, which to me contradicts itself. So why even bother attaching meanings to things if it is all meaningless?   Does it make life bearable?

lol

[defendor]

What you are saying here is that meaning is meaningless if it's not meaningful.

That's exactly what I'm saying.  So in a universe of meaninglessness, how can you define meaning  

Who decides how we should treat "conscious dirt"? What does logic have to say about how we should treat it?

According to atheist philosophy, anyone can decide how to treat conscious dirt.  Logically, what is there in attaching meaning to something meaningless? That is still essentially meaningless (the act of attaching meaning to meaninglessness) so why even bother..?
If you say so that we can benefit, you are making the assumption that for you to receive benefit, you, in your essence, have to have intrinsic meaning for something to have any beneficial value, for if you were essentially meaningless, then nothing could mean anything to you

[LegendarySandwich]

Defendor, I'm done with you and your arguments filled with equivocation fallacies. I'm tired of the nonsense you keep spouting out.

If you want to have a debate with me, please first show that objective meaning does in fact exist.

[defendor]

There is no such thing as objective meaning.

So why bother?

Here, I'll fix this for you: "If there is no objective meaning, then attaching meanings to thing is not objectively meaningful, which to me contradicts itself."

Thank you, could you please answer this?

My arguments are meaningful to me and whoever else values them.

Which has no meaning

That makes no sense.

For you to know what meaning is, you yourself would have to be meaningful, so that when you base meaning, its based off your existence as intrinsically meaningful

The only one making circular arguments are you.

Like which ones? I've only been restating your arguments with just questions

If God decides what things are meaningful, then how it is objective? It's just another being's opinion.

Because God in his being, is the essence of meaning, and the standard on which we base this meaning, is off of the standard God has intricately woven into every one of us as beings-objective, but then again isn't an all encompassing subjective reality really just objective?

Now from this perspective, i think the gospel is too good to be true

So you think it's false?  

[/quote]

You know, I'm not gonna put evidence on the table but I will say this, If the Gospel of Jesus Christ is in fact true, it is the greatest story ever told.  If the Gospel of Jesus Christ is in reality false, it's still the greatest story ever told.  

What more than an omnipotent being choosing to spend time with sinners(of which I am this worst, for I am a believer and a hypocrite)?  To love and cherish beings that are unworthy for eternity?

[defendor]

Defendor, I'm done with you and your arguments filled with equivocation fallacies. I'm tired of the nonsense you keep spouting out.

I don't wish to spout nonsense, but I don't know what parts of my arguments are nonsense

If you want to have a debate with me, please first show that objective meaning does in fact exist.

I can only tell you about it, but it's the Holy Spirit's job to convince you.  Objective meaning comes from the God who designed you (He used science to do it).  This is the Faith we believe in, that we are in fact meaningful, even as our common logic tells us.  That this meaning we don't understand, was written on our hearts by our God to seek him for meaning, not ourselves.

[Wilson]

Here's the thing, defendor.  You seem to be saying that because many of believe that there's no ultimate purpose or meaning to life, that we shouldn't enjoy things.  However, we do.  That's just a fact, inconvenient though it may be.  So it's a silly argument.  The fact is that atheism and happiness are not incompatible.  

Or maybe you're saying that if you don't believe that there is a purpose or meaning, it's illogical to enjoy life.  But many of us do.  In fact, many of us enjoy life more than many people who believe in God.  So you may as well stop trying to convince us that we should be miserable.  It's isn't Christian to do so.

As others have pointed out, we evolved to enjoy certain things.  The underlying reason we enjoy stuff is that it serves as motivation for certain tendencies which are good for the survival and reporduction of the species.  And those enjoyments are mostly instinctive and separate from what our philosophy of life is.

I hope you aren't telling us that atheists shouldn't enjoy sex.  That would be going too far.  We'd have to come over there and spank you.

[Stevil]

How does a lack in belief of a god mean that their is a lack in understanding the value of other people? It doesn't really matter where we came from or what we are made up of, we are here, we mutually exist, we have feelings, we matter. Belief in a god doesn't matter.

If there is nothing absolute to define meanings, then everything you still attach as meaning to other people, is meaningless.  Why are you saying there is meaning in a meaningless world? Isn't that completely contradictory?  

If we value people for what they are, they are merely conscious dirt, and logically, should be treated as such. So why the illogical notion of attaching a higher meaning to something that in its entire being, has no meaning?  (if you say it's because its human, please define humanity?)

I don't in the least understand where you are going with this.
Atheists can treat each other very well, we are not taught the intolerance that some faiths and scriptures promote.
BTW I also value all animals, we should treat them well too.

[Whitney]

defendor, I don't even know how to respond from here.

All I said is that I don't think there is objective meaning but I can make up a meaning (if I want to).  I don't put much stock in whether I actually describe what life means to me or not; but I do enjoy life because there are lost of things about life to enjoy regardless of if in the end it had some grand purpose or not.

I am in no way saying that my subjective idea that life is to enjoy should be forced on anyone else; you can hate life all you want   So I don't see why your comments veered towards trying to disprove forcing people to take on my subjective view.