The purpose of life

[defendor]

But doesn't that defeat the purpose of what enjoying really means?

Why would it?

How can someone enjoy something meaningless, on what grounds does their enjoying occur?

If someone, in themselves have no meaning attached to them, how can they 1. find meaning, even so much as subjective meaning

Why would a person have to have attached meaning to themselves to find meaning in other things?

Or else it would be meaningless

2. find pleasure, for the essence of enjoying something is to indulge in something meaningful that reiterates the meaning that is already intrinsically within them.  That's a tough one, think about it

No, it isn't. You're just making up definitions now.

Then please correct me

It's unspoken, you're assuming that even as you speak, that what you have to say is meaningful,

Not necessarily.

you are in this case

how can you do something meaningful if you yourself have no meaning

First, my assumption that I'm doing something meaningful would have to be correct. Second, I don't see how I wouldn't be able to do something meaningful if I myself didn't have meaning. Third, what do you define as "meaning"?

Meaning as ultimate or absolute purpose or value

[Tank]

The cookie is enjoyable because it contains high levels of sugars and fats. Both are food types we have evolved to seek out because of their high and concentrated calorific value and in the case of the fats our body's ability to transfer to storage with the minimum of energy loss.

Enjoyment is an intrinsic behaviour that humans experience when satisfying a requirement of our evolved nature. Meaning, in its ultimate sense, is derived from 'parent worship'. As children we crave attention and appreciate/enjoy positive reinforcement of our behaviours by our parents. For the formative part of our lives we exist to satisfy our parents desires. As we grow older we realise that we are independent individuals capable of deriving satisfactions from our own actions. Some people appear to need to continue 'parent worship' on into there adult life, either because they have been given no reason to do otherwise or because they are forced to by the culture they have been brought up in. It is perfectly reasonable for any individual to make up their own mind about what gives their own life meaning once they are capable of comprehending their own individuality.

Edit: For clarity

[LegendarySandwich]

How can someone enjoy something meaningless, on what grounds does their enjoying occur?

Our brains evolved to like certain things and dislike certain things. Certain things give us pleasure.

Or else it would be meaningless

Then please correct me

Pleasure is the feeling you get when you do something your body likes.

you are in this case

Why?

Meaning as ultimate or absolute purpose or value

Wait...that's the definition you've been operating with this entire time?  

[defendor]

The cookie is enjoyable because it contains high levels of sugars and fats. Both are food types we have evolved to seek out because of their high and concentrated calorific value and in the case of the fats our body's ability to transfer to storage with the minimum of energy loss.

So how does this result in pleasure?

Enjoyment is an intrinsic behaviour that humans experience when satisfying a requirement of our evolved nature. Meaning, in its ultimate sense, is derived from 'parent worship'.As children we crave attention and appreciate/enjoy positive reinforcement of our behaviours by our parents.

Sounds like freud

For the formative part of our lives we exist to satisfy our parents desires. As we grow older we realise that we are independent individuals capable of deriving satisfactions from our own actions. Some people appear to need to continue 'parent worship' on into there adult life, either because they have been given no reason to do otherwise or because they are forced to by the culture they have been brought up in. It is perfectly reasonable for any individual to make up their own mind about what gives their own life meaning once they are capable of comprehending their own individuality.

This is just Freud, and so by what mechanisms does our conscience not only exist, but decide and on what grounds is not just meaning, but what is the correct response to meaning?  If you want to take this back further, if we realize that we have no meaning, are essentially a culmination of atoms, why is necessary to attach meanings to things? isn't that just meaningless?

[defendor]

How can someone enjoy something meaningless, on what grounds does their enjoying occur?

Our brains evolved to like certain things and dislike certain things. Certain things give us pleasure.

so pleasure replaces purpose?

Or else it would be meaningless

Then please correct me

Pleasure is the feeling you get when you do something your body likes.

So what is purpose of pleasure, but satisfying someone meaningless, essentially making the whole thing meaningless. If you're meaningless, nothing you do will change that

you are in this case

Why?

You're assuming that what you have found for yourself to be true, but not only that, worthwhile to talk about, if you have no meaning, then it doesn't matter what you say for nothing that comes out has any value whatsoever

Meaning as ultimate or absolute purpose or value

Wait...that's the definition you've been operating with this entire time?  

[Tank]

The cookie is enjoyable because it contains high levels of sugars and fats. Both are food types we have evolved to seek out because of their high and concentrated calorific value and in the case of the fats our body's ability to transfer to storage with the minimum of energy loss.

So how does this result in pleasure?

Enjoyment is an intrinsic behaviour that humans experience when satisfying a requirement of our evolved nature. Meaning, in its ultimate sense, is derived from 'parent worship'.As children we crave attention and appreciate/enjoy positive reinforcement of our behaviours by our parents.

Sounds like freud

For the formative part of our lives we exist to satisfy our parents desires. As we grow older we realise that we are independent individuals capable of deriving satisfactions from our own actions. Some people appear to need to continue 'parent worship' on into there adult life, either because they have been given no reason to do otherwise or because they are forced to by the culture they have been brought up in. It is perfectly reasonable for any individual to make up their own mind about what gives their own life meaning once they are capable of comprehending their own individuality.

This is just Freud, and so by what mechanisms does our conscience not only exist, but decide and on what grounds is not just meaning, but what is the correct response to meaning?  If you want to take this back further, if we realize that we have no meaning, are essentially a culmination of atoms, why is necessary to attach meanings to things? isn't that just meaningless?

What we are made of is irrelevant to our behaviours. The fact that our ancestors ascribed 'meaning' to their existence because they had an incomplete and inaccurate understanding of why they existed does not mean that there is any 'meaning' to anything. It also has no influence on my world view that I am here and will do what I like that does no harm to others and is within the laws of the UK so I don't suffer any societal punishment for my behaviour.

As I have stated elsewhere I do not feel we has sufficient common ground to carry on a meaningful ( ) discussion. I hope you enjoy your time here.

Regards
Chris

[defendor]

What we are made of is irrelevant to our behaviours. The fact that our ancestors ascribed 'meaning' to their existence because they had an incomplete and inaccurate understanding of why they existed does not mean that there is any 'meaning' to anything.

What we are made of has everything to do with meaning

It also has no influence on my world view that I am here and will do what I like that does no harm to others and is within the laws of the UK so I don't suffer any societal punishment for my behaviour.

thats a fair set of objective standards for a subjective world view

As I have stated elsewhere I do not feel we has sufficient common ground to carry on a meaningful ( ) discussion. I hope you enjoy your time here.

its your choice and thank you, maybe one day we will be able to chit chat a bit more

[Recusant]

Hello and welcome to HAF, defendor.  I hope you don't mind if I join this particular conversation, especially since Tank has said he feels that carrying it any further would not be meaningful...
 

thats a fair set of objective standards for a subjective world view

The objective world, with other people and laws exists, no one but a solipsist would deny that.  How one assigns value to existence is a subjective choice. What Tank described sounded to me like a reasonable way of charting a course in view of those facts.

As for your repeated assertion that since we're "essentially a culmination of atoms" (in your picture of the atheist view) and therefore ultimately meaningless, you may be correct.  However we are also thinking, feeling social animals who have been formed by billions of years of evolution to derive satisfaction from certain modes of behavior. One of the things which seems to be a constant in the human psyche is the drive to assign meaning.  People generally find life much more satisfying if they feel it has meaning.  That meaning does not have to be derived from any particular viewpoint.  It's arbitrary, and as far as I can see is not based on nor given to us by a deity of any kind.  People can choose to believe in such a deity, and believe that the deity has given meaning to their lives, but that isn't the only route to meaning there is.  An extremely wide range of things can be used to give meaning to people's lives. That there may be no ultimate or supernatural meaning is not really a problem, because many many people are quite content to derive meaning from such things as family, friends, art, discussion, politics, etc, etc.  The people who do so are not living empty lives. Quite the contrary.  If you choose to view them as living empty lives because they don't happen to subscribe to the thing which you believe gives ultimate meaning to your life, you're entitled to take that view, but don't expect them to agree with you.

[LegendarySandwich]

the thing I simply do not understand is that how can you, with an atheistic philosophy, make assumptions like this, that all of the people you listed, have some sort of intrinsic value that is not simply just a culmination of atoms and product of chance

People have intrinsic value to me because I choose to give it to them. Is there a reason why I can't do this?

[LegendarySandwich]

Hello and welcome to HAF, defendor.  I hope you don't mind if I join this particular conversation, especially since Tank has said he feels that carrying it any further would not be meaningful...
 

thats a fair set of objective standards for a subjective world view

The objective world, with other people and laws exists, no one but a solipsist would deny that.  How one assigns value to existence is a subjective choice. What Tank described sounded to me like a reasonable way of charting a course in view of those facts.

As for your repeated assertion that since we're "essentially a culmination of atoms" (in your picture of the atheist view) and therefore ultimately meaningless, you may be correct.  However we are also thinking, feeling social animals who have been formed by billions of years of evolution to derive satisfaction from certain modes of behavior. One of the things which seems to be a constant in the human psyche is the drive to assign meaning.  People generally find life much more satisfying if they feel it has meaning.  That meaning does not have to be derived from any particular viewpoint.  It's arbitrary, and as far as I can see is not based on nor given to us by a deity of any kind.  People can choose to believe in such a deity, and believe that the deity has given meaning to their lives, but that isn't the only route to meaning there is.  An extremely wide range of things can be used to give meaning to people's lives. That there may be no ultimate or supernatural meaning is not really a problem, because many many people are quite content to derive meaning from such things as family, friends, art, discussion, politics, etc, etc.  The people who do so are not living empty lives. Quite the contrary.  If you choose to view them as living empty lives because they don't happen to subscribe to the thing which you believe gives ultimate meaning to your life, you're entitled to take that view, but don't expect them to agree with you.

I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself, so I'll just let Recusant's answer be mine as well.

[Stevil]

I simply do not understand is that how can you, with an atheistic philosophy, make assumptions like this, that all of the people you listed, have some sort of intrinsic value that is not simply just a culmination of atoms and product of chance

How does a lack in belief of a god mean that their is a lack in understanding the value of other people? It doesn't really matter where we came from or what we are made up of, we are here, we mutually exist, we have feelings, we matter. Belief in a god doesn't matter.

[Ken2468]

Why do you guys hold such hostility to a God that doesn't exist?

I personally do not hold hostility to a being I do not believe exists - you are correct, that would be equally ridiculous. However, I am concerned about the actions of those who DO believe their God exists (or pretend to).....the Inquisitions, witch hunts, televangelists who rob people of money, the Catholic Church covering up pedophilia by priests while parents gave them the benefit of the doubt because they were "holy men of God", then providing refuge in the Vatican for many involved in the acts themselves or the cover up, the bombing of abortion clinics, the ostracization of atheists by their family, friends, co-workers because they think atheist = immoral, etc.

Islam has now stepped it up another level with their outright evil activities in the name of their faith.

Here's another example: What would be the chances today of the USA electing a President who was openly atheist even if he was a man of integrity and presented a platform that appealed to most Americans? Answer: Either Zero or close to Zero.

So my friend, atheists / agnostics like myself speak up because of the harm religion has done throughout the ages up to the present, not because we have a "hostility" toward any particular God we do not believe exists.

[defendor]

I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself, so I'll just let Recusant's answer be mine as well.

Ha I can handle that, but i will continue to reiterate my points until I feel there is a solid answer, i will try and number them out to so we're working with a set standard   .  I believe people have intrinsic meaning and a set of moral standards, but coming from an Atheist world view (which everything is meaningless) 1. How can you (being meaningless) know what meaning is?  2. Have the audacity to completely stand against your own ethos in attaching meaning (assuming that everything is truly meaningless)?  3.  I'm working off the assumption that you want me to take your argument as meaningful, so if what you say is subjective, how can I take it as meaningful?

[defendor]

People have intrinsic value to me because I choose to give it to them. Is there a reason why I can't do this?

Because you have essentially, no value in yourself. unless you proclaim yourself to be absolutely meaningful being.  How can you have authority to attach meanings.

[defendor]

How does a lack in belief of a god mean that their is a lack in understanding the value of other people? It doesn't really matter where we came from or what we are made up of, we are here, we mutually exist, we have feelings, we matter. Belief in a god doesn't matter.

If there is nothing absolute to define meanings, then everything you still attach as meaning to other people, is meaningless.  Why are you saying there is meaning in a meaningless world? Isn't that completely contradictory?  

If we value people for what they are, they are merely conscious dirt, and logically, should be treated as such. So why the illogical notion of attaching a higher meaning to something that in its entire being, has no meaning?  (if you say it's because its human, please define humanity?)