I'm wondering at what point atheists stop being atheists and start believing in God again. What I mean is surely you have dignity, yes? So where does that dignity come from. If atheism is true, that is if there is no God, how can any human being have any dignity?
First, you need to qualify what it is about being human that you find undignified and how that can only be rectified by belief in your god.
Define what you mean by "dignity."
Then please explain why we must have God to have dignity.
I find "dignity" to be a slippery word, since its definition is a bit nebulous and can mean different things to different people, (we can all agree it's a good thing to have, but nobody can agree exactly what it is) but to me it means self-worth and self-control. Someone with dignity respects themselves and others, and is in turn worthy of respect by others.
When I was a Christian, I was told I was a worthless, sinful creature, and that I deserved nothing but the fires of hell no matter how good I tried to be. That without Jesus, I was nothing. That did not give me dignity. That did not improve my self-worth.
Breaking away from Christianity improved my self-worth by leaps and bounds. I stopped hating myself. I gained respect for others, when I had previously looked upon non-Christians with smug pity. I became my own person. My decisions are now my own. Meaning, I have to take responsibility for my own crap. To preserve my dignity, to be worthy of respect, I have to right my wrongs myself instead of praying for forgiveness. There is no Jesus for me to fall back on. When I screw up, I have to fix it myself.
Is it harder? Yeah. But dignity is something you work for, not something handed down to you from on high. You have to maintain it.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 11, 2011, 07:18:13 AM
First, you need to qualify what it is about being human that you find undignified and how that can only be rectified by belief in your god.
No doubt you'll suggest that I'm dodging the issue, but in fact, I was the one who asked you the question. I'm asking you how, as an atheist, you have dignity on what do you base it. Apparently, I have to guess at what you think by the question you ask. Apparently, you believe that human beings have inherent dignity, just because. Fine, but what is that dignity based on.
I think dignity is a sense of worth and high placement. Do you, as an atheist believe humans have that just for being human?
Quote from: Fi on December 11, 2011, 08:05:57 AM
Define what you mean by "dignity."
A sense of personal worth and high standing.
QuoteThen please explain why we must have God to have dignity.
Well, actually, I asked you to explain where the basis for dignity comes from as an atheist.
QuoteI find "dignity" to be a slippery word, since its definition is a bit nebulous and can mean different things to different people, (we can all agree it's a good thing to have, but nobody can agree exactly what it is) but to me it means self-worth and self-control. Someone with dignity respects themselves and others, and is in turn worthy of respect by others.
When I was a Christian, I was told I was a worthless, sinful creature, and that I deserved nothing but the fires of hell no matter how good I tried to be. That without Jesus, I was nothing. That did not give me dignity. That did not improve my self-worth.
Breaking away from Christianity improved my self-worth by leaps and bounds. I stopped hating myself. I gained respect for others, when I had previously looked upon non-Christians with smug pity. I became my own person. My decisions are now my own. Meaning, I have to take responsibility for my own crap. To preserve my dignity, to be worthy of respect, I have to right my wrongs myself instead of praying for forgiveness. There is no Jesus for me to fall back on. When I screw up, I have to fix it myself.
I appreciate the lecture as to why you don't want to be a Christian, but how does throwing off a standard like Jesus Christ make you feel better about yourself. Isn't that a bit like lowering the high jump bar until you can clear it and then feeling good about yourself because you finally cleared the high jump bar? Isn't that a bit like awarding yourself a medal?
I derive my dignity from being a Son of God. Not that I deserve it, but that my worth and high placement was given to me by someone greater than any other possible being. But how then does an atheist derive dignity? Just by saying, "I have dignity."? :-\
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 11, 2011, 07:18:13 AM
First, you need to qualify what it is about being human that you find undignified and how that can only be rectified by belief in your god.
Exactly. What is undignified, in your opinion? Have you seen/experienced/done that behaviour yourself. Have you witnessed this behaviour
only in atheists?
You'll need to set the parameters of your question a little more extensivly and precisely before it is meaningful, otherwise the thread could well degenerate into a semantic argument that would have Whittgenstein spinning in his grave.
EDIT
dig·ni·ty [dig-ni-tee]
noun, plural -ties.
1.
bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation.
2.
nobility or elevation of character; worthiness: dignity of sentiments.
3.
elevated rank, office, station, etc.
4.
relative standing; rank.
5.
a sign or token of respect: an impertinent question unworthy of the dignity of an answer.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dignity
None of the above requires supernatural intervention. They are all pretty much examples of what the majority of western society would consider good behaviour. So God is not required to be 'dignified' in any sense. All of the above are simple behaviours of acknowledgement of acceptable behaviours by one's peer group.
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 09:25:49 AM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 11, 2011, 07:18:13 AM
First, you need to qualify what it is about being human that you find undignified and how that can only be rectified by belief in your god.
Exactly. What is undignified, in your opinion? Have you seen/experienced/done that behaviour yourself. Have you witnessed this behaviour only in atheists?
You'll need to set the parameters of your question a little more extensivly and precisely before it is meaningful, otherwise the thread could well degenerate into a semantic argument that would have Whittgenstein spinning in his grave.
Fine. Where does an atheist deriver his or her sense of worth and high placement? That's all there is to the question. It's perfectly fine to say you don't know.
Edit to you Edit:
So, you're saying you derive your sense of dignity from what your peers say about you?
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:30:59 AM
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 09:25:49 AM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 11, 2011, 07:18:13 AM
First, you need to qualify what it is about being human that you find undignified and how that can only be rectified by belief in your god.
Exactly. What is undignified, in your opinion? Have you seen/experienced/done that behaviour yourself. Have you witnessed this behaviour only in atheists?
You'll need to set the parameters of your question a little more extensivly and precisely before it is meaningful, otherwise the thread could well degenerate into a semantic argument that would have Whittgenstein spinning in his grave.
Fine. Where does an atheist deriver his or her sense of worth and high placement? That's all there is to the question. It's perfectly fine to say you don't know.
Edited my previous post while you were posting this. You have created a false linkage between the characteristic of dignity and a person's world view.
If one takes what you wrote
"Where does an
atheist derive his or her sense of worth and high placement?"
And alters it thus:-
"Where does a
person derive his or her sense of worth and high placement?
The essential meaning remains the same and is not making an entirely erroneous statement linking a general human characteristic to a specific world view. I derive my sence of self-worth through a number of things including, but not limited to, being an exemplary owner to my dogs, helping to keep this place running, getting a 1st class honours degree, writing up my decades of business experience, taking a photo that other people could not, taking a picture that others like.
But all of the above is simply rooted in the human sense of self and is an extension of our social evolution as a social species. Humans have a need to belong because loners don't reproduce. Only people who function in a social environment get to reproduce (with the exception of rapists but that's aberrant behaviour). Humans have lots of behaviours that equate to primate grooming that go beyond physical contact, 'massaging their/there ego' is a case in point. Dignity is concept that relates a person's behaviour to their expectations and their social group's expectations. When there two expectations coincide then a behaviour would be considered acceptable and if that behavior relates to social status/progress/ritual it could be said to be dignified.
To have pride in oneself and a sense of self respect that is worthy of respect from others for me has absolutely nothing to do with thinking I am superior to any other part of nature or is given by some super-natural force, in fact I do not think myself, humanity, or any species is superior to any other. Therefore I do not believe in caste systems, that men are better than women, that heteros are better than homos, or that people born with disabilities are any less competent than those that are considered normal.
The dignity that anyone perceives is a view of the self held in high regard, even your own view about having dignity from god is just your opinion held with high worth. The persona you are creating so far leads me to think that you believe your dignity and self worth comes from god, that anyone else with a different point of view or has a different background has no dignity or is lesser than yourself. Do I think your sense of dignity is worthy of respect? not so far, you have been unable to represent yourself in a dignified manner that is worthy of my respect, if you are an example of the christian form of dignity handed down by your god and re-enforced by the other god then you can keep it and cherish it whilst I look at it in disgust. To become a person of dignity you need to represent yourself in a way that is worthy of the title. You earn it.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:30:59 AM
{snip}
So, you're saying you derive your sense of dignity from what your peers say about you?
If you are referring to self-worth then being acknowledged by ones peers may reinforce one's feelings. My hobby is photography and in particular macro (close up) photography of plants and insects. I take my photos for my satisfaction. I have tens of thousands of images and if I never showed anybody any of them I would still take more and strive to improve my techniques and the variety of the subjects I photography. In this case I increase my self-worth by doing what I do better than I did before. If I show my pictures to others and they like them well that's nice too.
However as social creatures humans do react to others in their social group. For example the 3-year-old boy in a play group who finds out that waving his 'weener' about make some other kids laugh is soon told that his behaviour while amusing to some is far from socially acceptable and will adjust their behaviour accordingly. This is how humans learn, through positive or negative reinforcement either internally (feels good/bad) or externally (praise/punishment).
An indicator that 'dignity' is culturally derived and not an absolute is that different culture have different ideas of dignified behaviour. In a country in Africa the king recently wanted a wife. He made this known and hundreds of girls ages 14 and upwards turned up and danced topless for him. Hardly the sort of thing many Western people would consider 'dignified' I'm sure some would go as far as saying degrading. Another example would be the arabic taboo of showing the soles of one's feet to others. I used to think that arabs were really formal in pictures as they would sit dead straight in a picture, nobody ever crossed their legs. Well they sit with their feet on the floor because to show the soles of their foot/shoe to the person sitting next to you would be a grievous insult.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 07:15:00 AMI'm wondering at what point atheists stop being atheists and start believing in God again.
To get an accurate answer to that question you'd be better off asking it of "ex-atheists." Though such people do exist, in my experience many of the most public ex-atheists seem to proclaim themselves as such to try to give their efforts at proselytizing a little extra punch. Often this sort makes it sound as if they were merely ignorant before becoming an evangelical Christian: "I was an atheist until I read the Bible" is one trope that I've come across more than once. When I hear that line, some elements of doubt regarding the honesty of the proselytizer begin to creep in. This is because when one listens to the various stories of how people began to doubt their faith, one often hears that the first cracks in the wall of unquestioning belief occurred as a result of a thorough reading of the Bible. I cannot give the exact number of times I've read that in introduction posts here, but it's in the upper double digits. Many Christian evangelists are aware of this, and I think it's likely that at least some of them try to counter it by saying the exact opposite. The W. L. Craig parrot who calls himself "ShockofGod" is an example of somebody who describes himself as an "ex-atheist" and uses "when I read the Bible, I was convinced" and whose honesty I have doubts about.
Still, though I think that there are a fair number of faux "ex-atheists" out there, there are also some who honestly were atheists and have honestly come to Jesus. These are the people you should search out to learn the stories of how atheists stop being atheists. Asking atheists such a question seems futile. My honest answer is that I don't know, still being firmly infidel myself. I have read the Bible a number of times, and have studied certain passages in depth, and doing so has been anything but convincing.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 07:15:00 AMWhat I mean is surely you have dignity, yes?
I actually don't consider myself to be especially dignified. Merely avoiding making too much of an ass of myself is probably the best I can hope for, and I honestly don't care to strive for dignity as such.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 07:15:00 AMSo where does that dignity come from.
Tank kindly supplied the standard definitions of the word. So for definitions 2 though 5, it appears that dignity comes from the esteem of other people. For definition 1, self respect is the obvious prime component, with consideration of the situation in which one finds oneself and attendant moderation of one's behavior being secondary.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 07:15:00 AMIf atheism is true, that is if there is no God, how can any human being have any dignity?
It has been pointed out that it doesn't seem necessary for a supernatural entity to be involved for dignity to exist; this is a position with which I agree.
It's good to see you here again, Edward.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:18:30 AM
I think dignity is a sense of worth and high placement. Do you, as an atheist believe humans have that just for being human?
Mine is, in that case, based on my acomplishments, my abilities, my intellect and my status among peers. AND it walks a very fine line with arrogance.
Quote
Well, actually, I asked you to explain where the basis for dignity comes from as an atheist.
In knowing one's own worth, I would say.
Quote
I appreciate the lecture as to why you don't want to be a Christian, but how does throwing off a standard like Jesus Christ make you feel better about yourself.
Because Christ is not all that impressive..? Not to mention 2000 years since dead, if he ever lived at all..? There are people I look up to - different people for different things. Some are smarter than I, others are wiser, and some are... Bigger men than I am, for the lack of a better expression.
All of them are people I know. Now why don't you tell me, Ed, why you think I should look up to a probably fictional dead guy who lived in a highly unpleasant and ignorant time for anything at all?
Quote
Isn't that a bit like lowering the high jump bar until you can clear it and then feeling good about yourself because you finally cleared the high jump bar? Isn't that a bit like awarding yourself a medal?
What's wrong with taking pride in achieving realistic goals? First, you make the jump you CAN make. Then you can concentrate on making that next jump and so on.
Although by my standards, a decently high bar when it comes to being an overall decent human being is not at all where Jesus set it.
Quote
I derive my dignity from being a Son of God. Not that I deserve it, but that my worth and high placement was given to me by someone greater than any other possible being. But how then does an atheist derive dignity? Just by saying, "I have dignity."? :-\
No. I act dignified by being dignified. I've never used the expression "I have dignity" in other than implicational manner for the purposes of this thread.
I know what I am worth to myself, those I work for and those around me. I also know that given any number of tasks, I'll do them well - or, as well as I possibly can. Doing as much as you can is, after all, a good source of pride in personal achievement.
I am, however, slightly prone to attribute a higher price tag to myself than what should really be there, and that's where your definition of dignity slides into arrogance. And arrogance, by the way, is something theists tend to be REALLY good at, without even recognising it.
Dignity?
Interesting thread, so that's how you get it.
Hmm, should I get me some?
Na, maybe when I get older so I have some to loose when I get really old.
Quote from: Recusant on December 11, 2011, 10:15:53 AM
To get an accurate answer to that question you'd be better off asking it of "ex-atheists." Though such people do exist, in my experience many of the most public ex-atheists seem to proclaim themselves as such to try to give their efforts at proselytizing a little extra punch. Often this sort makes it sound as if they were merely ignorant before becoming an evangelical Christian: "I was an atheist until I read the Bible" is one trope that I've come across more than once. When I hear that line, some elements of doubt regarding the honesty of the proselytizer begin to creep in. This is because when one listens to the various stories of how people began to doubt their faith, one often hears that the first cracks in the wall of unquestioning belief occurred as a result of a thorough reading of the Bible. I cannot give the exact number of times I've read that in introduction posts here, but it's in the upper double digits. Many Christian evangelists are aware of this, and I think it's likely that at least some of them try to counter it by saying the exact opposite. The W. L. Craig parrot who calls himself "ShockofGod" is an example of somebody who describes himself as an "ex-atheist" and uses "when I read the Bible, I was convinced" and whose honesty I have doubts about.
Well, my point here was to suggest that in order to believe in dignity one must ultimately believe in God. A point I hope to prove. But to digress, it is possible to read the teachings of Jesus Christ and have a conversion. I know I was taken by the fact that he had the audacity to claim He was the Truth implying he wasn't just "telling" the truth like other philosophers. That would have either made him mad, a liar, or God. His influence over the world, as well as the rest of his teachings, rule out being mad or a liar. But I digress.
QuoteI actually don't consider myself to be especially dignified. Merely avoiding making too much of an ass of myself is probably the best I can hope for, and I honestly don't care to strive for dignity as such.
But avoiding making too much of an ass of yourself is striving for dignity, is it not?
QuoteIt has been pointed out that it doesn't seem necessary for a supernatural entity to be involved for dignity to exist; this is a position with which I agree.
You could have dignity from yourself, but that would be a kind of delusional dignity. You could have dignity from what others think about you, but that is capricious and can be taken away by those same people. Or you can have dignity from the judgment of a being who is greater than yourself, but that could only be God. So that's why I ask where an atheist derives their dignity. Assuming there is no God, can there really be any such thing as dignity or can there only be the illusion of dignity?
QuoteIt's good to see you here again, Edward.
Thank you. It's good to be back. And let me say that I'm not answering posts in any particular order, and please don't think I'm ignoring any post. I'm just answering the one or ones that make me think of something first. Eventually, I'll probably respond to them all.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 10:15:58 AM
Because Christ is not all that impressive..? Not to mention 2000 years since dead, if he ever lived at all..? There are people I look up to - different people for different things. Some are smarter than I, others are wiser, and some are... Bigger men than I am, for the lack of a better expression.
All of them are people I know. Now why don't you tell me, Ed, why you think I should look up to a probably fictional dead guy who lived in a highly unpleasant and ignorant time for anything at all?
There is no way to combat historical ignorance. If you can't look at the last 2000 years and see the impact the life and teachings of Jesus Christ have had on the world, the monumental amount of writing from the first and second centuries about him (especially if you include all the gnostic writings), I can't make you see his reality. It is very likely something wonderful happened right around 30 AD, and what happened changed the world, and continues to change people's lives.
And now, are you actually telling me that the people in your life compare to Jesus Christ in your estimation? Well, that must be one hell of a clique. It is true that the only way to know Jesus today is through the Gospel records of his life. We can't know him through direct physical experience.
I'm curious, have you ever actually read one of the Gospels?
Quote
Although by my standards, a decently high bar when it comes to being an overall decent human being is not at all where Jesus set it.
So, you think Jesus was lacking in decency? Can you explain that?
QuoteI know what I am worth to myself, those I work for and those around me. I also know that given any number of tasks, I'll do them well - or, as well as I possibly can. Doing as much as you can is, after all, a good source of pride in personal achievement.
So dignity comes from being productive and competent.
QuoteI am, however, slightly prone to attribute a higher price tag to myself than what should really be there, and that's where your definition of dignity slides into arrogance. And arrogance, by the way, is something theists tend to be REALLY good at, without even recognising it.
I would agree that everyone values themselves, that's why dignity can't really come from one's own appraisal, otherwise the arrogant theists would be more dignified than the humble atheists. I think we would agree that would be a delusional dignity.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:30:59 AMSo, you're saying you derive your sense of dignity from what your peers say about you?
We're saying that dignity comes from within based on how one feels about one's self and one's talents, achievements, character, etc... Nowhere in there is a god necessary to claim one's dignity. Wait, I'm wrong, one person DID make that claim:
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:30:59 AMI derive my dignity from being a Son of God. Not that I deserve it, but that my worth and high placement was given to me by someone greater than any other possible being. But how then does an atheist derive dignity? Just by saying, "I have dignity."?
What you're saying is that you can only feel good about yourself by convincing yourself that you have found favor in the eyes of, well, let's just state it as it is, an invisible magical man who lives in the sky.
So, let's review:
- Atheists find dignity based on what kind of person they are and what sort of talents and accomplishments define them as individuals.
- Xians find dignity through blind worship and obedience to a mythic figure...sort of like the Greeks worshipping Zeus, or the Vikings worshipping Odin, or the Egyptians worshipping Ra, or the ...
You get the idea.
But even if god were real don't you think you could still find something more prosaic to feel good about than just being yet another sycophantic pet to an all-powerful lord and master? You're not just proud of it, you're arrogant about it. Why is that? Do you praise him louder and longer than other Xians? Why do you feel he's impressed with you? What about you compelled god to pause in his busy schedule of...whatever it is he does, to say to himself "
Hmm, that Ed Gordon, he's a good bit of a-ok!"
Personally, I'm more impressed with your commitment to writing and love of dogs than in all of the Xian boilerplate I'm certain we're going to hear from you.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 11:33:52 AM
There is no way to combat historical ignorance. If you can't look at the last 2000 years and see the impact the life and teachings of Jesus Christ have had on the world, the monumental amount of writing from the first and second centuries about him (especially if you include all the gnostic writings), I can't make you see his reality. It is very likely something wonderful happened right around 30 AD, and what happened changed the world, and continues to change people's lives.
Crusades, inquisition, persecution of pagans, gays, witches and who knows how many other groups of people... Maybe if, hypothetically, Jesus of the bible did exist, he did not mean for that to hapen, and yet, in the name of
Christianity, humanity did hit a few all-time lows. Yes, your particular religion did influence the world, but whether or not it was in a generally good direction... That's debateable. And me, I lean towards "not", for promoting ignorance, discrimination, submission without questioning, ignoring standing facts... The list is long.
How was it, in your opinion, that Christianity made the sorry world we live in a better place?
Quote
And now, are you actually telling me that the people in your life compare to Jesus Christ in your estimation?
Surpass, in fact. One of my acquaintances, for instance, is a transplant surgeon. What he does, I have a great respect for. You don't even have to pray for him to do it - it's his job, and he will do it if he can.
Then there is this other guy I know... He's pleasant to deal with even in the vilest of moods. Not in a creepy kind of way - he's just genuinely a nice person whos patience surpasses that of anyone else I've ever met... And being a high maintenance friend, I have tested the patience of pretty much everyone who ever gor close to me.
A girl I used to... Long story... Anyways, her job would sour a lemon, and yet she is proud of doing it and looks forward to waking up in the morning and going to work.
No imaginary friend could inspire me by example the way these people, and others, do every day.
QuoteWell, that must be one hell of a clique.
Among hundreds of slimey rocks, occasionally, there is a pearl. I just try to maintain my connection to those pearls.
QuoteIt is true that the only way to know Jesus today is through the Gospel records of his life. We can't know him through direct physical experience.
...Which means you can not know Jesus at all, except through someone's subjective and possibly inaccurate writings.
QuoteI'm curious, have you ever actually read one of the Gospels?
I have read several, in fact. Was far from impressed on far too many levels.
Fix the quotes, and I will answer the rest.
Quotes fixed. Didn't see it at first...
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 11:33:52 AM
So, you think Jesus was lacking in decency? Can you explain that?
He only used apparently infinite power to do some minor parlor tricks (Compared to the scope of that power)
A
decent being with the powers of an all-powerful god to back him would, for starters, eliminate disease - from everyone, not just enough people to make oneself look good and/or interesting. I can continue, although I think that right there is quite enough.
QuoteSo dignity comes from being productive and competent.
Depends... For me, those are good soures of it. Others can be creativity, accountability, loyalty and so on.
QuoteI would agree that everyone values themselves, that's why dignity can't really come from one's own appraisal, otherwise the arrogant theists would be more dignified than the humble atheists. I think we would agree that would be a delusional dignity.
There is a line to walk there, but however you slice it, thinking that a being with the powers of the Universe and beyond gives a crap about a microscopic little microbe among billions, which in this metaphor is an individual human, is highly arrogant.
The humble stance would be to assume that one is far beneath god's notice.
The unsubstantiated assertion inferred that one cannot have dignity without God or a belief in it is preposterous. It is equally preposterous that "dignity" is wrought from the divine.
Dignity, or perhaps to be more specific (not that it matters), human dignity is a reality based ontological philosophical concept of a attribute inseparable from human nature and shared at numerous levels by all people. It is part of the overall question of 'what it means to be human'.
The OP really belongs in the Philosophical forum.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 10:59:05 AMWell, my point here was to suggest that in order to believe in dignity one must ultimately believe in God. A point I hope to prove.
It will be interesting to see how you will go about proving that point in a manner which is convincing to anyone here, considering the fact that the definition of the word "dignity" does not include any reference to the supernatural, let alone any deity.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 10:59:05 AMBut to digress, it is possible to read the teachings of Jesus Christ and have a conversion.
Agreed.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 10:59:05 AMI know I was taken by the fact that he had the audacity to claim He was the Truth implying he wasn't just "telling" the truth like other philosophers. That would have either made him mad, a liar, or God. His influence over the world, as well as the rest of his teachings, rule out being mad or a liar. But I digress.
Your three options are too limited, in my opinion. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least a few other options that deserve consideration.
1. Jesus may not have been mad, or a liar, but simply delusional.
2. Jesus may have been referring to some sort of esoteric doctrine which has since been suppressed.
3. What he actually said may have been misrepresented by those who wrote about him decades after his death.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 10:59:05 AMBut avoiding making too much of an ass of yourself is striving for dignity, is it not?
No; dignity is a positive attribute. Attempting to avoid a negative attribute does not equal striving to attain a positive attribute.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 10:59:05 AMYou could have dignity from yourself, but that would be a kind of delusional dignity.
You have yet to provide evidence that this is the case, or even made an attempt to show why anybody should agree with your opinion on the matter.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 10:59:05 AMYou could have dignity from what others think about you, but that is capricious and can be taken away by those same people.
One would agree with this only if one believes that all other people's opinions are governed by mere caprice.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 10:59:05 AMOr you can have dignity from the judgment of a being who is greater than yourself, but that could only be God. So that's why I ask where an atheist derives their dignity. Assuming there is no God, can there really be any such thing as dignity or can there only be the illusion of dignity?
When you've shown that the concept of dignity has anything to do with a deity, then your position may have some standing. Right now, you're ignoring the proper definition of the term in favor of your assertion that a deity is the ultimate source of dignity. That's not going to fly.
I think "dignity" is an emotionally loaded word that doesn't actually mean much of anything.
But if you're going to push the issue, I'd say that it's largely culturally relative. A Western notion of "dignity" is going to be very different from a Japanese notion, or an ancient Greece notion. Personally, I don't worry or care too much about whether something's "dignified" because it's such a vague term anyway.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 10:59:05 AMYou could have dignity from yourself, but that would be a kind of delusional dignity. You could have dignity from what others think about you, but that is capricious and can be taken away by those same people. Or you can have dignity from the judgment of a being who is greater than yourself, but that could only be God. So that's why I ask where an atheist derives their dignity. Assuming there is no God, can there really be any such thing as dignity or can there only be the illusion of dignity?
So you dismiss any notion of a person being capable of possessing their own dignity. To you, if it didn't come from god, it isn't real.
Step outside yourself for a moment and see the irony in this reasoning from an atheist point of view. So far as we're concerned, your entire argument is based on an illusion so you're the only one here whose dignity is illusory. Your whole sense of self-worth is based on nothing more than your imagined state of grace in the judgement of your phantom deity.
If we don't believe in god then your argument that our dignity can only come from him is clearly lost no matter how many times you restate it. Your question has been answered.
Quote from: MadBomr101
Step outside yourself for a moment and see the irony in this reasoning from an atheist point of view. So far as we're concerned, your entire argument is based on an illusion so you're the only one here whose dignity is illusory. Your whole sense of self-worth is based on nothing more than your imagined state of grace in the judgement of your phantom deity.
If we don't believe in god then your argument that our dignity can only come from him is clearly lost no matter how many times you restate it. Your question has been answered.
Excellent!
Quote from: Gawen on December 11, 2011, 12:35:54 PMExcellent!
Thank you. I'll be here all week. Try the veal. ;D
Dignity is a subjective human concept, it is not measurable in the same sense as mass or voltage. There is no SI 'unit of dignity' the 'Dig'. Personally I think you are wasting your time trying to prove that a unquantifyable, culturally sensitive, abstract, subjective human concept (dignity) has to exist because another unquantifiable, culturally sensitive, abstract, subjective human concept (God) also exists. But it's your dime, so knock yourself out ;D
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 12:43:01 PM
Dignity is a subjective human concept, it is not measurable in the same sense as mass or voltage. There is no SIO 'unit of dignity' the 'Dig'. Personally I think you are wasting your time to trying to prove that a unquantifyable, culturally sensitive, abstract, subjective human concept (dignity) has to exist because another unquantifiable, culturally sensitive, abstract, subjective human concept (God) also exists.
+1
QuoteBut it's your dime, so knock yourself out ;D
Well, it does keep The Asmo from spending his sunday in utter boredom :P
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 12:45:28 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 12:43:01 PM
But it's your dime, so knock yourself out ;D
Well, it does keep The Asmo from spending his sunday in utter boredom :P
I used to hate Sunday afternoons. As Douglas Adams wrote about one of his characters 'he was bored, he had taken all the baths one could and there was nothing else to do."
Now I have HAF! Woot!
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 12:50:29 PM
I used to hate Sunday afternoons. As Douglas Adams wrote about one of his characters 'he was bored, he had taken all the baths one could and there was nothing else to do."
Now I have HAF! Woot!
YES. That. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.htguide.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Ficon_agree.gif&hash=a3cb1805557daeffc1695553003eb0cb83854c9f) completely.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 12:53:29 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 12:50:29 PM
I used to hate Sunday afternoons. As Douglas Adams wrote about one of his characters 'he was bored, he had taken all the baths one could and there was nothing else to do."
Now I have HAF! Woot!
YES. That. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.htguide.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Ficon_agree.gif&hash=a3cb1805557daeffc1695553003eb0cb83854c9f) completely.
Haha, Ditto ;D Actually, if it was 10 years ago, I'd probably be getting ready for church right now! Ahh, I think I'll just take a moment and bask in the glory of not having to do that :P
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 12:53:29 PM
YES. That. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.htguide.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Ficon_agree.gif&hash=a3cb1805557daeffc1695553003eb0cb83854c9f) completely.
Yoink. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.htguide.com%2Fforum%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Ficon_agree.gif&hash=a3cb1805557daeffc1695553003eb0cb83854c9f)
Dignity or sense of worth is self derived and a person can find their dignity based on any number of things. Considering how many Christians view themselves as just horrible sinners in need of salvation; I don't see how belief in God is a way of finding dignity anyway so your question doesn't make any sense. Most of the Christian teachings call for being humbled in front of god, not dignified.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
Assuming there is no God, can there really be any such thing as dignity or can there only be the illusion of dignity?
If dignity is in essence a feeling of self worth then you wouldn't need an outside source to justify that feeling. So there is no need for god to exist for dignity to be true. Not to mention that if an "greater" outside source were needed for dignity to not simply be self delusion (not sure how an emotional state can be an illusion but whatever) then society as a whole would serve that purpose (and for many actually does serve that purpose).
This thread is interesting, but still rather tough to answer.
Firstly I agree with what Fi said:
QuoteWhen I was a Christian, I was told I was a worthless, sinful creature, and that I deserved nothing but the fires of hell no matter how good I tried to be. That without Jesus, I was nothing. That did not give me dignity. That did not improve my self-worth.
If Christian 'dignity' is that, then it's unimpressive and just odd. I don't see people spouting those sorts of ideas as dignified...
As for what I think of dignity, I don't know yet. I guess, to me, some are more dignified than others, and if they are, then they are. I might be fallaciously equating it with respect for characters that are dignified, though. :-\
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 11, 2011, 12:30:05 PM
I don't worry or care too much about whether something's "dignified" because it's such a vague term anyway.
I agree...and it's almost archaic too. It's a word that is most often used in formal settings to describe how a person (usually male) carries their own presence. So a man in a fancy suit with an air of confidence in the way he holds up his head, speaks, and moves his arms will be considered dignified by onlookers (regardless of his true inner emotional state). When someone's self esteem is hurt today they don't talk about a loss of dignity they talk about a loss of pride (perhaps that is a better word for what egor was trying to ask...not sure).
I think the OP is just another version of "why don't you hate yourself if there is no god" type of questions that we see frequently and are always confused on how someone could even think to ask such nonsense.
Quote from: Whitney on December 11, 2011, 04:22:42 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 11, 2011, 12:30:05 PM
I don't worry or care too much about whether something's "dignified" because it's such a vague term anyway.
I agree...and it's almost archaic too. It's a word that is most often used in formal settings to describe how a person (usually male) carries their own presence. So a man in a fancy suit with an air of confidence in the way he holds up his head, speaks, and moves his arms will be considered dignified by onlookers (regardless of his true inner emotional state). When someone's self esteem is hurt today they don't talk about a loss of dignity they talk about a loss of pride (perhaps that is a better word for what egor was trying to ask...not sure).
Alfa status, perhaps (though still, there is a difference from claiming that one is alfa and actually being alfa). Certainly in line with the holier-than-thou type religious, which I do not see as dignified (to use the archaic word).
Read most of the thread and the vibe I get from this that "Where does your dignity come from" is the new "Where do you get your morals".
I do not consider my self as a very dignified person, for lot's of reasons, not the least because of my main vices that include excessive lazyness (I'm working on it...one of these days...). However, I do think that people can act in a dignified way, which to me is somewhere between "better then avarage table manners" and "a step away from being a bloody snob about it". Or perhaps I'm mixing that with "refined"....?
Now, the more important issue here is that you,
Egor, obviously believe that we recive dignity from someone, as if it was a package in a mail with a ribbon and pretty couloured wrapping with your name on it. If it only were that easy... Dignity, and morals for that matter, are not semthing that you get in a ready-to-go manner, but is something that is refined through experince, interaction with other people and, in the lack of a better way of putting it, self-discovery. As others have already noted, it is a social thing rather then a matter of "believing in the right sky daddy". and that leads to the question: who would you get dignity by beliving in YHWH/Jesus/Allah, and not in Shiva or the Deistic god? Why is it so specific? Because one believes that ones religion is more "truthfull" then any other? Because a sripture says so?
QuoteThere is no way to combat historical ignorance. If you can't look at the last 2000 years and see the impact the life and teachings of Jesus Christ have had on the world, the monumental amount of writing from the first and second centuries about him (especially if you include all the gnostic writings), I can't make you see his reality. It is very likely something wonderful happened right around 30 AD, and what happened changed the world, and continues to change people's lives.
(snip)
I'm curious, have you ever actually read one of the Gospels?
Well, first of all, the first 4 or so centuries were not very kind for this new religion. They lived within an empire that required the worship of the ruling Emperor as a living deity, much in the way of the Pharaos, and their scriptures forbade such a thing, as they were not to have any other "gods" then YHWH or Jesus, depending on the interpitation that was not set in cler until after the Council of Nikea and it's subsequent meetings. It was only after Theodosius I who made Chrsitianity, that was odd to most theists of the time, the State Religion of his empire that it went from strenght to strenght. The reason why it was view as odd was because it only had one "god" that did everything, and that is forbade the worship of other "gods". Basicly you no longer needed to pay tribute to half a dozen of deities from a handful of religions in order to insure a safe trip to teh neighbouring town or victory on the battlefield, a simple prayer to one "god" provided all the good fortunes needed.
And the fact that the "monumental ammount" of writings about this supposed "Jesus" were written late in the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D do nothing to dispel the fact that the only writings that would be from his times are religious scriptures that themselves were written by people who never met the person they were writing about. This makes "Jesus" at best a historical possibility, either as a person or that there was a person or persons whom were used as inspiration for the biblical character. The only way to think otherwise, is to believe in the christian mythology.
And certainly, chrsitinaity has changed peoples lives. But not always for the better, because of it's unfortunate ambiguety that allows wide interpitations to fit the motives of almost any kind of people. From benevolent rulers to people who do not want their world view of being specially chosen to be challenged and allowing the use of violence to defend it. Unfortunately few took up the Golden Rule that the biblical Jesus tried to pass on amongst other things, a philosophical advice that had already existed centuries before his credited times, and which can be found in religions such as Confucianism, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism.
I can honestly say that I haven't read any of the gospels, cannonic or non-cannon, from cover to cover. My only touch with them is basicly what I learned during the religions classes in school (religion being a mandatory school subject here in Finland), and even that concentrated on the journeys of some of the apostoles and the hippies side of Jesus with the Golden Rule and all, with the rest mostly being church history. And on two grades we went over the other religions of the world, as marginally as can be with still having the ability to say that one knows something about them....
dignity is a very archaic word, ultimately derived from the Roman concept of dignitas, which roughly meant 'the sum of the personal clout and influence that a male citizen acquired throughout his life' (from wikipedia). I'm not sure I need dignity really, it all seems very old fashioned, so I guess I too can ask the question 'What about dignity?' while shrugging my shoulders.
Plus, as others have pointed out, there's nothing in the definition of dignity that relates to belief in a deity.
Thank you, history_geek, for making a proper answer where I didn't really bother :D
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 06:21:57 PM
Thank you, history_geek, for making a proper answer where I didn't really bother :D
No prob....wait, I did something right?! :o
And I am a history geek after all, so I really wouldn't live up to my name if I didn't take the time to lecture about it every once in a while ;D
Quote from: history_geek on December 11, 2011, 06:08:24 PM
QuoteThere is no way to combat historical ignorance. If you can't look at the last 2000 years and see the impact the life and teachings of Jesus Christ have had on the world, the monumental amount of writing from the first and second centuries about him (especially if you include all the gnostic writings), I can't make you see his reality. It is very likely something wonderful happened right around 30 AD, and what happened changed the world, and continues to change people's lives.
And the fact that the "monumental ammount" of writings about this supposed "Jesus" were written late in the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D do nothing to dispel the fact that the only writings that would be from his times are religious scriptures that themselves were written by people who never met the person they were writing about. This makes "Jesus" at best a historical possibility, either as a person or that there was a person or persons whom were used as inspiration for the biblical character. The only way to think otherwise, is to believe in the christian mythology.
Plus it's worth mentioning that we don't have any extant Christian writings that date to the first century, and only two that have definitely been dated to the second century (and they've not been radiocarbon dated, they're dated on the handwriting style!) So we really don't have a 'monumental amount' of Christian writings dated to this period.
What we have is fragments of New Testament books that were written centuries after Jesus' supposed lifetime, and the assumption that these works originally date to the first century. Even if it turns out they do originally date this early, we still don't know how much of them are original and how much might be interpretations or alterations by scribes over the centuries. Take the gospel of Mark for example, generally considered the earliest gospel, yet our earliest extant fragment dates to 350 CE, some 280 years after its supposed original composition.
"Dignity" today seems to relate to self-esteem or self-worth. A person could get his/her self-esteem or sense of self-worth from parents, from teachers, from self, from philosophy, from personal achievements, from any number of sources. It really boils down to how one feels about one's person. For the theist, experience with God or scripture can be another source, but there are multiple sources for everyone. Humans in general are at the pinnacle of the food chain, so whether you view yourself as being made in the image of God or as being the most advanced step in the process of evolution (or both), humans are still the "crown of creation" under either scenario, so there is a valid basis for having a positive image of self either way.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:30:59 AM
Where does an atheist deriver his or her sense of worth and high placement?
High placement is a relative term, do you mean in relation to other people, other animals, or inanimate objects.
I do not place myself above any of those, although being me I tend to try and cater to my needs and wants above others. I expect others are responsible for catering to their own needs and wants, except for my dependant children, I feel it is my responsibility to cater for them.
Sense of worth?
With regards to what? I don't think of my life as requiring a defined sense of worth, I am alive and I simply go about my business living that life.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 11:33:52 AM
There is no way to combat historical ignorance. If you can't look at the last 2000 years and see the impact the life and teachings of Jesus Christ have had on the world, the monumental amount of writing from the first and second centuries about him (especially if you include all the gnostic writings), I can't make you see his reality. It is very likely something wonderful happened right around 30 AD, and what happened changed the world, and continues to change people's lives.
Are you familiar with Alan Turing? In well under a 100 years the impact this man has had on humanity has by far exceeded the impact that Jesus or any other religious figure has ever had on humanity, his works have infiltrated every society all over the world no matter what their belief system. He was the father of computer science and artificial intelligence and a true genius with a totally new way of thinking that eventually changed the way that humanity fundamentally lives and interacts with society around them. Not only was his works in mathematics so brilliant it lead to the revolution of computing, it lead to AI which have influenced scientists, mathematicians, science fiction writers, and artists the world over. On top of that his work on mathematical biology specifically morphogenesis which again helped changed the worlds understanding on biology and strengthened the theory of evolution. He did all this without asking to be worshiped as deity, he was persecuted for being himself which was a law created due to Christianity, that caused the man to be chemically castrated by the British government and hounded by the police until his death.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 11, 2011, 11:42:14 AM
What you're saying is that you can only feel good about yourself by convincing yourself that you have found favor in the eyes of, well, let's just state it as it is, an invisible magical man who lives in the sky.
No, let's not state it as you'd have it. I never said, nor do I believe, that God is a man, that he is magical or that he lives in the sky. That's your strawman, not mine. And if that's how you justify your atheism, then your atheism is ridiculous.
QuoteSo, let's review:
- Atheists find dignity based on what kind of person they are and what sort of talents and accomplishments define them as individuals.
So, they award themselves dignity? They judge themselves and pin on their own medals?
Quote- Xians find dignity through blind worship and obedience to a mythic figure...sort of like the Greeks worshipping Zeus, or the Vikings worshipping Odin, or the Egyptians worshipping Ra, or the ...
You get the idea.
No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.
QuoteBut even if god were real don't you think you could still find something more prosaic to feel good about than just being yet another sycophantic pet to an all-powerful lord and master? You're not just proud of it, you're arrogant about it. Why is that?
If God is real, and He allows me to by his sycophantic pet, then I'm lucky and honored, because the sycophantic pet of God is a higher being than one who can't see God at all. Thus, "dignity." In other words, if God is real, you're not even a sycophantic pet of his. And that's a pretty low place to be. Isn't it?
Do you praise him louder and longer than other Xians? Why do you feel he's impressed with you? What about you compelled god to pause in his busy schedule of...whatever it is he does, to say to himself "
Hmm, that Ed Gordon, he's a good bit of a-ok!"
I sought him. Like other true Christians, I was created by him and then with my free will and desire, I went looking for him. He turned on a lighthouse (sent Jesus Christ) and I changed my course to move toward it. That's it.
QuotePersonally, I'm more impressed with your commitment to writing and love of dogs than in all of the Xian boilerplate I'm certain we're going to hear from you.
Well, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they? :-\
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 11, 2011, 11:42:14 AM
What you're saying is that you can only feel good about yourself by convincing yourself that you have found favor in the eyes of, well, let's just state it as it is, an invisible magical man who lives in the sky.
No, let's not state it as you'd have it. I never said, nor do I believe, that God is a man, that he is magical or that he lives in the sky. That's your strawman, not mine. And if that's how you justify your atheism, then your atheism is ridiculous.
QuoteSo, let's review:
- Atheists find dignity based on what kind of person they are and what sort of talents and accomplishments define them as individuals.
So, they award themselves dignity? They judge themselves and pin on their own medals?
Quote- Xians find dignity through blind worship and obedience to a mythic figure...sort of like the Greeks worshipping Zeus, or the Vikings worshipping Odin, or the Egyptians worshipping Ra, or the ...
You get the idea.
No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.
QuoteBut even if god were real don't you think you could still find something more prosaic to feel good about than just being yet another sycophantic pet to an all-powerful lord and master? You're not just proud of it, you're arrogant about it. Why is that?
If God is real, and He allows me to by his sycophantic pet, then I'm lucky and honored, because the sycophantic pet of God is a higher being than one who can't see God at all. Thus, "dignity." In other words, if God is real, you're not even a sycophantic pet of his. And that's a pretty low place to be. Isn't it?
Do you praise him louder and longer than other Xians? Why do you feel he's impressed with you? What about you compelled god to pause in his busy schedule of...whatever it is he does, to say to himself "Hmm, that Ed Gordon, he's a good bit of a-ok!"
I sought him. Like other true Christians, I was created by him and then with my free will and desire, I went looking for him. He turned on a lighthouse (sent Jesus Christ) and I changed my course to move toward it. That's it.
QuotePersonally, I'm more impressed with your commitment to writing and love of dogs than in all of the Xian boilerplate I'm certain we're going to hear from you.
Well, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they? :-\
Pack it in Edward, nobody here has personally attacked you, do it again and you'll find yourself on the naughty step. You're just trolling now.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
So, they award themselves dignity?
It's not something you "award" yourself. Once you see yourself as having dignity, you have it from your perspective.
Quote
They judge themselves and pin on their own medals?
There is a subtle implication that there is something wrong with that. What?
Is it wrong to recognise one's own achievements and credit oneself for them?
Quote
No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.
...Which gives you not a scrap of dignity in my book, but if it toots your horn, then it toots your horn.
QuoteIf God is real, and He allows me to by his sycophantic pet, then I'm lucky and honored, because the sycophantic pet of God is a higher being than one who can't see God at all. Thus, "dignity." In other words, if God is real, you're not even a sycophantic pet of his. And that's a pretty low place to be. Isn't it?
No, licking god's balls does not elevate you over any-one... Just makes you a bitch to something you can't even prove exists.
QuoteI sought him. Like other true Christians, I was created by him and then with my free will and desire, I went looking for him. He turned on a lighthouse (sent Jesus Christ) and I changed my course to move toward it. That's it.
Why..? Why not just give him a big "Fuck you!" and go on about your life in a manner defined by you and not by your superstition?
QuoteWell, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they? :-\
Oh please! His (Or her... Don't remember who authored the quote) way of spelling it is an attempt at mild mockery of your precious lord and master. Don't read more into words than what is there - that's how people fall into all this religious nonsense to begin with.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 09:44:16 PM
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
So, they award themselves dignity?
It's not something you "award" yourself. Once you see yourself as having dignity, you have it from your perspective.
Quote
They judge themselves and pin on their own medals?
There is a subtle implication that there is something wrong with that. What?
Is it wrong to recognise one's own achievements and credit oneself for them?
Quote
No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.
...Which gives you not a scrap of dignity in my book, but if it toots your horn, then it toots your horn.
QuoteIf God is real, and He allows me to by his sycophantic pet, then I'm lucky and honored, because the sycophantic pet of God is a higher being than one who can't see God at all. Thus, "dignity." In other words, if God is real, you're not even a sycophantic pet of his. And that's a pretty low place to be. Isn't it?
No, licking god's balls does not elevate you over any-one... Just makes you a bitch to something you can't even prove exists.
QuoteI sought him. Like other true Christians, I was created by him and then with my free will and desire, I went looking for him. He turned on a lighthouse (sent Jesus Christ) and I changed my course to move toward it. That's it.
Why..? Why not just give him a big "Fuck you!" and go on about your life in a manner defined by you and not by your superstition?
QuoteWell, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they? :-\
Oh please! His (Or her... Don't remember who authored the quote) way of spelling it is an attempt at mild mockery of your precious lord and master. Don't read more into words than what is there - that's how people fall into all this religious nonsense to begin with.
Asmo. Please don't help set this thread on fire, or you'll end up baked solid!
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 09:51:26 PM
Asmo. Please don't help set this thread on fire, or you'll end up baked solid!
Ah... Was just talking to you about it, actually.
A baked Asmo... That's like... Pottery. :-\ Not nice. (Taken under advisement)
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 09:56:33 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 09:51:26 PM
Asmo. Please don't help set this thread on fire, or you'll end up baked solid!
Ah... Was just talking to you about it, actually.
A baked Asmo... That's like... Pottery. :-\ Not nice. (Taken under advisement)
You'd make a good paper weight ;D
My sense of dignity comes from the way I choose to comport myself and the way I am seen by my peers. I was a christian in my early teens, and I never in my life had a lower sense of self worth or dignity then back then.
Today I am a happy atheist. I have my own sense of dignity, I see my self worth and I have the respect of people around me. I found my dignity when i let go of the self delusion that is religion.
If diginty comes from a god, why do I have more of it now when I don't believe?
(rethorical question, by the way.I don't expect you to make a rational response)
OP, the entire pretense for your argument is your belief in God.
We are atheists, we have no belief in God, so can't you see how arguing to us that our position is wrong from your position isn't going to get anywhere? Unless you can get us to agree that there is a God, all of your "God exists, therefore" arguments are going to be beyond meaningless.
If this is what you mean by "not backing down" from an arugment, I can see why you get banned a lot of places. It has nothing to do with us and everything to do with the way you conduct yourself.
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 10:00:42 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 09:56:33 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 09:51:26 PM
Asmo. Please don't help set this thread on fire, or you'll end up baked solid!
Ah... Was just talking to you about it, actually.
A baked Asmo... That's like... Pottery. :-\ Not nice. (Taken under advisement)
You'd make a good paper weight ;D
:o The..! PAPERWEIGHT?! Why, you... ...
... ...
..! Come to think of it, a potterified Asmo paper weight is just one step from an actual statue, yes..? I need to put that in my will. That way, The Asmo will be FOREVER! MUAHA!
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 10:11:28 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 10:00:42 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 09:56:33 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 09:51:26 PM
Asmo. Please don't help set this thread on fire, or you'll end up baked solid!
Ah... Was just talking to you about it, actually.
A baked Asmo... That's like... Pottery. :-\ Not nice. (Taken under advisement)
You'd make a good paper weight ;D
:o The..! PAPERWEIGHT?! Why, you... ...
... ...
..! Come to think of it, a potterified Asmo paper weight is just one step from an actual statue, yes..? I need to put that in my will. That way, The Asmo will be FOREVER! MUAHA!
We could bake baby Asmo's and sell them as atheist icons 8)
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 11, 2011, 10:06:19 PM
OP, the entire pretense for your argument is your belief in God.
We are atheists, we have no belief in God, so can't you see how arguing to us that our position is wrong from your position isn't going to get anywhere? Unless you can get us to agree that there is a God, all of your "God exists, therefore" arguments are going to be beyond meaningless.
If this is what you mean by "not backing down" from an arugment, I can see why you get banned a lot of places. It has nothing to do with us and everything to do with the way you conduct yourself.
Agreeing with this. And may I point out that such a way of comporting oneself in a debate is not very dignified, making this discussion for you, Egor, the debating equivalent to shooting one self in the foot. ;D
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 10:21:24 PM
We could bake baby Asmo's and sell them as atheist icons 8)
Ooh! Ooh! We could start a sub-division of HAF called The Grumpy Atheist and incorporate The Asmo into the logo! :D
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 11, 2011, 12:30:05 PM
I think "dignity" is an emotionally loaded word that doesn't actually mean much of anything.
But if you're going to push the issue, I'd say that it's largely culturally relative. A Western notion of "dignity" is going to be very different from a Japanese notion, or an ancient Greece notion. Personally, I don't worry or care too much about whether something's "dignified" because it's such a vague term anyway.
I agree, DJ. Who has it and why is completely subjective, and whether its source is internal or external is a matter of personal opinion. When I think of all the people walking about believeing they have dignity, while the general concensus is that they're pompous asses, and all those going about believeing they're just silly fools while others are thinking of them "there's a dignified old cuss", it doesn't seem that useful a concept. I think if it makes anyone feel good about themselves to believe they have it, then by all means go for it but it's a self-awarded medal no matter what.
Quote from: AsmoThe..! PAPERWEIGHT?! Why, you... ...
I think a baked Asmo would make a much better pie weight, and be even more useful.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 10:24:37 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 11, 2011, 10:21:24 PM
We could bake baby Asmo's and sell them as atheist icons 8)
Ooh! Ooh! We could start a sub-division of HAF called The Grumpy Atheist and incorporate The Asmo into the logo! :D
That is such a great idea!
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 11, 2011, 11:42:14 AM
What you're saying is that you can only feel good about yourself by convincing yourself that you have found favor in the eyes of, well, let's just state it as it is, an invisible magical man who lives in the sky.
No, let's not state it as you'd have it. I never said, nor do I believe, that God is a man, that he is magical or that he lives in the sky. That's your strawman, not mine. And if that's how you justify your atheism, then your atheism is ridiculous.
QuoteSo, let's review:
- Atheists find dignity based on what kind of person they are and what sort of talents and accomplishments define them as individuals.
So, they award themselves dignity? They judge themselves and pin on their own medals?
Quote- Xians find dignity through blind worship and obedience to a mythic figure...sort of like the Greeks worshipping Zeus, or the Vikings worshipping Odin, or the Egyptians worshipping Ra, or the ...
You get the idea.
No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.
QuoteBut even if god were real don't you think you could still find something more prosaic to feel good about than just being yet another sycophantic pet to an all-powerful lord and master? You're not just proud of it, you're arrogant about it. Why is that?
If God is real, and He allows me to by his sycophantic pet, then I'm lucky and honored, because the sycophantic pet of God is a higher being than one who can't see God at all. Thus, "dignity." In other words, if God is real, you're not even a sycophantic pet of his. And that's a pretty low place to be. Isn't it?
I'll respond to this: I rest my case ;D
I don't know what you call that...dignity? You sure?
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
If God is real, and He allows me to by his sycophantic pet, then I'm lucky and honored, because the sycophantic pet of God is a higher being than one who can't see God at all. Thus, "dignity." In other words, if God is real, you're not even a sycophantic pet of his. And that's a pretty low place to be. Isn't it?
That's like asking which is better: being a lap dog on a leash or a wolf in the wild. Once again, it's purely a matter of perspective and personal opinion.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.
Advancing towards what?
The spectacle of adults in their fancy costumes worshipping the non-existent never really struck me as dignified, much of what they do is quite repellant actually. Passing off responsibility for your morals onto another, na, that's not dignified.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 12, 2011, 12:37:05 AM
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.
Advancing towards what?
The spectacle of adults in their fancy costumes worshipping the non-existent never really struck me as dignified, much of what they do is quite repellant actually. Passing off responsibility for your morals onto another, na, that's not dignified.
I think it's as much advancing
from as advancing
to -- they're advanced beyond non-believers, whom they are now better than. To me that seems more silly than dignified, but hey, whatever gets them thru the night.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 11, 2011, 07:17:11 PM
"Dignity" today seems to relate to self-esteem or self-worth. A person could get his/her self-esteem or sense of self-worth from parents, from teachers, from self, from philosophy, from personal achievements, from any number of sources. It really boils down to how one feels about one's person. For the theist, experience with God or scripture can be another source, but there are multiple sources for everyone. Humans in general are at the pinnacle of the food chain, so whether you view yourself as being made in the image of God or as being the most advanced step in the process of evolution (or both), humans are still the "crown of creation" under either scenario, so there is a valid basis for having a positive image of self either way.
I think the above is good concise response to the question that anyone should be able to understand.
Egor, did you see the above? If so, how do you respond? Keep in mind that one of your fellow Christians wrote it so it's not an evil atheist point of view ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 09:44:16 PM
QuoteWell, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they? :-\
Oh please! His (Or her... Don't remember who authored the quote) way of spelling it is an attempt at mild mockery of your precious lord and master. Don't read more into words than what is there - that's how people fall into all this religious nonsense to begin with.
I think maybe Egor finds the term Xian blasphemous, like the word xmas, so perhaps made that ridiculous 'weak atheist' comment to try and deter further 'blasphemy'. I don't think that the words Xian or xmas should really be considered blasphemous though, given that they're very similar to an abbreviation that was used by the earliest Christians. The writers of the early Greek NT manuscripts often shortened the word 'Christos' to just 'XS'.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 12, 2011, 01:51:16 AM
I think maybe Egor finds the term Xian blasphemous, like the word xmas, so perhaps made that ridiculous 'weak atheist' comment to try and deter further 'blasphemy'. I don't think that the words Xian or xmas should really be considered blasphemous though, given that they're very similar to an abbreviation that was used by the earliest Christians. The writers of the early Greek NT manuscripts often shortened the word 'Christos' to just 'XS'.
That's my understanding as well. Besides the admittedly petty pleasure of knowing the "X" offends fundies, I find the shape of "Xtian" very elegant.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 12, 2011, 02:20:17 AM
That's my understanding as well. Besides the admittedly petty pleasure of knowing the "X" offends fundies, I find the shape of "Xtian" very elegant.
Could you drop the X and just have "tian," you may have to choose the right sans font though and it would have to be lower case.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 11, 2011, 11:42:14 AM
What you're saying is that you can only feel good about yourself by convincing yourself that you have found favor in the eyes of, well, let's just state it as it is, an invisible magical man who lives in the sky.
No, let's not state it as you'd have it. I never said, nor do I believe, that God is a man, that he is magical or that he lives in the sky. That's your strawman, not mine. And if that's how you justify your atheism, then your atheism is ridiculous.
Really? A pronouncement of ridiculous from a guy who worships an invisible magical
being who lives in the sky? See, I changed that just for you...although I don't see much of a difference. That your god is presented as an unseen entity who creates universes and life from nothing and receives souls that float heavenward (up) is pretty much standard Xian boilerplate. (like I said we'd see from you) So at least have the backbone to own the preposterous details of your own faith.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 11, 2011, 11:42:14 AMSo, let's review:
- Atheists find dignity based on what kind of person they are and what sort of talents and accomplishments define them as individuals.
So, they award themselves dignity? They judge themselves and pin on their own medals?
Of course, Ed. Why wouldn't a thinking man or woman be capable of judging for themselves whether or not they're the kind of person they aspire to be? Who else is there? It's not like there are mystical deities around us taking note of who we are and what we do and validating our own sense of self-worth for us. Because that would be laughable.
Not only that, but there's this as well.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 10:59:05 AMYou could have dignity from yourself, but that would be a kind of delusional dignity. You could have dignity from what others think about you, but that is capricious and can be taken away by those same people. Or you can have dignity from the judgment of a being who is greater than yourself, but that could only be God.
Relying on your personal sense of self-worth to be granted to you by someone very lofty, let's say, the CEO of Facebook, would still be relying on the validation of another which, as you yourself pointed out above, is unacceptable. So if the approval of Mark Zuckerberg, or Bill Gates, or Bob Iger, or the ghost of Abraham Lincoln isn't sufficient, why is your own rule waived for god? Is it because he's magic?
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 11, 2011, 11:42:14 AM- Xians find dignity through blind worship and obedience to a mythic figure...sort of like the Greeks worshipping Zeus, or the Vikings worshipping Odin, or the Egyptians worshipping Ra, or the ...
You get the idea.
No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.
Standard Xian Reply #137 but with a notably heightened level of arrogance. Thank you. I found this reply comical. :)
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 11, 2011, 11:42:14 AMBut even if god were real don't you think you could still find something more prosaic to feel good about than just being yet another sycophantic pet to an all-powerful lord and master? You're not just proud of it, you're arrogant about it. Why is that?
If God is real, and He allows me to by his sycophantic pet, then I'm lucky and honored, because the sycophantic pet of God is a higher being than one who can't see God at all. Thus, "dignity." In other words, if God is real, you're not even a sycophantic pet of his. And that's a pretty low place to be. Isn't it?
No, Ed, it isn't. Being a sycophantic pet is. What makes it sadder is that your claiming superiority and a swelling sense of pride at being the sycophantic pet of a fairytale. I can see that your delusion runs deep to consider a rationalization this lopsided to be an argument worth putting forth.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 11, 2011, 11:42:14 AMDo you praise him louder and longer than other Xians? Why do you feel he's impressed with you? What about you compelled god to pause in his busy schedule of...whatever it is he does, to say to himself "Hmm, that Ed Gordon, he's a good bit of a-ok!"
I sought him. Like other true Christians, I was created by him and then with my free will and desire, I went looking for him. He turned on a lighthouse (sent Jesus Christ) and I changed my course to move toward it. That's it.
So did every other Xian. I asked what it was about YOU that set you apart to find such vast favor and prominence in god's eyes.
What you're telling me is that you did nothing that was any more notable than anyone else. You drank the Xian kool-aid and so god showers you with his personal approval and you are instantly elevated to a status of "higher being" without having to exert any additional effort to prove your distinctive or individual value. I can see why you embrace this delusion, it really doesn't demand much out of you to achieve this level of "higher being." Just believe it and it's so.
If only reality were that simple.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 11, 2011, 11:42:14 AMPersonally, I'm more impressed with your commitment to writing and love of dogs than in all of the Xian boilerplate I'm certain we're going to hear from you.
Well, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they? :-\
I also don't feel threatened by your religious hallucinations nor by your armchair psychoanalysis. But that can be fun so let me give it a go: you've built a Xian cocoon around you that enables you to pronounce yourself superior to strangers you meet on the internet without ever having actually done anything to justify it in any meaningfully demonstrable way. It allows you to live each day with a wholly unearned sense of arrogance in your "accomplishment" as one of god's special little lambs.
TFL and Davin pretty much nailed your style from the start. ;)
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 12, 2011, 01:51:16 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 09:44:16 PM
QuoteWell, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they? :-\
Oh please! His (Or her... Don't remember who authored the quote) way of spelling it is an attempt at mild mockery of your precious lord and master. Don't read more into words than what is there - that's how people fall into all this religious nonsense to begin with.
I think maybe Egor finds the term Xian blasphemous, like the word xmas, so perhaps made that ridiculous 'weak atheist' comment to try and deter further 'blasphemy'. I don't think that the words Xian or xmas should really be considered blasphemous though, given that they're very similar to an abbreviation that was used by the earliest Christians. The writers of the early Greek NT manuscripts often shortened the word 'Christos' to just 'XS'.
^Perfect. I mean, just perfect! :D
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 12, 2011, 03:17:10 AM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 12, 2011, 01:51:16 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 09:44:16 PM
QuoteWell, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they? :-\
Oh please! His (Or her... Don't remember who authored the quote) way of spelling it is an attempt at mild mockery of your precious lord and master. Don't read more into words than what is there - that's how people fall into all this religious nonsense to begin with.
I think maybe Egor finds the term Xian blasphemous, like the word xmas, so perhaps made that ridiculous 'weak atheist' comment to try and deter further 'blasphemy'. I don't think that the words Xian or xmas should really be considered blasphemous though, given that they're very similar to an abbreviation that was used by the earliest Christians. The writers of the early Greek NT manuscripts often shortened the word 'Christos' to just 'XS'.
^Perfect. I mean, just perfect! :D
It was me.
For the record, while there is a historical precedent for the use of the X, and I believe it's Roman but don't quote me, I use it due to simple habit and laziness. Long ago, I determined it was just much easier than spelling out Christian and Christianity over and over and over again.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 12, 2011, 03:28:14 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 12, 2011, 03:17:10 AM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 12, 2011, 01:51:16 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 11, 2011, 09:44:16 PM
QuoteWell, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they? :-\
Oh please! His (Or her... Don't remember who authored the quote) way of spelling it is an attempt at mild mockery of your precious lord and master. Don't read more into words than what is there - that's how people fall into all this religious nonsense to begin with.
I think maybe Egor finds the term Xian blasphemous, like the word xmas, so perhaps made that ridiculous 'weak atheist' comment to try and deter further 'blasphemy'. I don't think that the words Xian or xmas should really be considered blasphemous though, given that they're very similar to an abbreviation that was used by the earliest Christians. The writers of the early Greek NT manuscripts often shortened the word 'Christos' to just 'XS'.
^Perfect. I mean, just perfect! :D
It was me.
For the record, while there is a historical precedent for the use of the X, and I believe it's Roman but don't quote me, I use it due to simple habit and laziness. Long ago, I determined it was just much easier than spelling out Christian and Christianity over and over and over again.
First time you've had to justify yourself? I'm guessing no, but...
I just find it humorous that someone such as Egor will, even though he's ignorant, say that something is 'blasphemous'. If we were living in a few centuries back, that would be a serious offence, and all because he got a bit offended (over what really, I have no idea.) You use the word too lightly Ed, given your beliefs...don't make me go into armchair analyst mode over that. ::)
Is it really blasphemous, Ed, or are you playing god and projecting what offends
you as blasphemous?
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 12, 2011, 03:40:56 AMFirst time you've had to justify yourself? I'm guessing no, but...
You got that right, Silver. Xians have taken me to task repeatedly over the years just as Ed tried to do by assigning some dire reason why I must hide behind the X rather than face the word of Christ in my own blasphemous texts. I think they think it burns my eyes or something. Their arguments were just as lame and just as easily dismissed.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 12, 2011, 02:25:31 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 12, 2011, 02:20:17 AM
That's my understanding as well. Besides the admittedly petty pleasure of knowing the "X" offends fundies, I find the shape of "Xtian" very elegant.
Could you drop the X and just have "tian," you may have to choose the right sans font though and it would have to be lower case.
You mean like
'tian? I suppose, but to my mind it's the capital X that creates the elegant effect, esp. if it's written in calligraphy rather than typed.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 12, 2011, 03:40:56 AM
Is it really blasphemous, Ed, or are you playing god and projecting what offends you as blasphemous?
It doesn't offend me in the slightest. But I find it curious that many atheists have a hard time spelling out the word "Christ" but have no problem spelling out the names of other religious figures.
But it's a moot point. There really are bigger fish to fry.
Quote from: Whitney on December 12, 2011, 01:25:21 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 11, 2011, 07:17:11 PM
"Dignity" today seems to relate to self-esteem or self-worth. A person could get his/her self-esteem or sense of self-worth from parents, from teachers, from self, from philosophy, from personal achievements, from any number of sources. It really boils down to how one feels about one's person. For the theist, experience with God or scripture can be another source, but there are multiple sources for everyone. Humans in general are at the pinnacle of the food chain, so whether you view yourself as being made in the image of God or as being the most advanced step in the process of evolution (or both), humans are still the "crown of creation" under either scenario, so there is a valid basis for having a positive image of self either way.
I think the above is good concise response to the question that anyone should be able to understand.
Egor, did you see the above? If so, how do you respond? Keep in mind that one of your fellow Christians wrote it so it's not an evil atheist point of view ;D
I meant dignity within the human race. I try not to act undignified in front of my dog, but I really want my dignity in and amongst other people. And I agree that everyone feels dignified for different reasons, perhaps. But, and I will ask this again, how is there dignity without a superior being giving one dignity?
Many in here have stated that they give themselves dignity by reflecting on their accomplishments. I would argue that's not real dignity, that's only a delusion of dignity.
Some say that friends give them their dignity, but I would argue that if a person derives dignity from the opinions of their friends then they don't really have dignity.
We only seem to have true dignity when someone greater than we are sets us above and apart from others. For instance, if there is a God and he favors us, then we really do have dignity. We have a reason to feel worthy, because God has said we are. And if God has said it, no one can ever take it away.
If there is no God, there is no basis for dignity, only the delusion of dignity.
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 07:25:24 AM
It doesn't offend me in the slightest. But I find it curious that many atheists have a hard time spelling out the word "Christ" but have no problem spelling out the names of other religious figures.
No other god's name, that I know of at least, has such an easy and well-known abbreviation with such a long-standing history within its own religion.
QuoteI meant dignity within the human race. I try not to act undignified in front of my dog, but I really want my dignity in and amongst other people. And I agree that everyone feels dignified for different reasons, perhaps. But, and I will ask this again, how is there dignity without a superior being giving one dignity?
Some say that friends give them their dignity, but I would argue that if a person derives dignity from the opinions of their friends then they don't really have dignity.
The bolded lines are in contradiction with each other. I'm sure you have an explanation.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 12, 2011, 08:34:26 AM
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 07:25:24 AM
I meant dignity within the human race. I try not to act undignified in front of my dog, but I really want my dignity in and amongst other people. And I agree that everyone feels dignified for different reasons, perhaps. But, and I will ask this again, how is there dignity without a superior being giving one dignity?
Some say that friends give them their dignity, but I would argue that if a person derives dignity from the opinions of their friends then they don't really have dignity.
The bolded lines are in contradiction with each other. I'm sure you have an explanation.
I don't see how they contradict. I want to have my dignity recognized by other people, but other people don't give me dignity. They can't.
And I'm not trying to say that I have dignity and you don't. I think atheists do have dignity, and that's my point: Atheism is untrue.
EDIT: Fixed quotes - Tank
Now, before anyone pulls their tale into a knot because of "Xtian", you'll find the reason for its use in this vid, around 2:30 onwards:
To XMAS And Beyond! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T8Y1-VLjGQ&feature=g-u)
But it all basicly boils down to the fact that in greek, the original language of the Gospels and New Testament in general, "X" is the first letter of the word "Christ". So not only is it accurate to use it, its also rather convienant in internet conversations and with "Xmas" ;D
And why do I feel that "Atheism is untrue" is copied from a rather obnoxius self-proclaimed ex-atheist current YouTube laughing stock calling himself "ShockofGod".... :-\
I think there might be a topic on this already, but just to be sure....
If I've understood correctly, inorder for something to be true or untrue, a claim must be made, no? For example Christianity claims that Jesus is god (or that his part of a trinity god or that he is the same as YHWH....take your pick). However, atheism makes no such claim. It is simply not believing the made claim of someones or something divinity. Now, an athesit, such as myself, can make a claim that the deity in question does not exist, which makes me a Gnostic Atheist. I claim knowledge on the existance of this deity called being and do not believe in that or any other deity. One can claim tha by a long shot Gnostic Atheist are wrong, but it does not mean that Atheism is somehow untrue or disproven because of this, because it's position of being unbelief does not change. There are also Agnostic Athesits who do not make the claim on knowldge, but do not belive in deities. Does this prove atheism correct? Of course not, since it again does not change what athesim is. Not believing. However, it also works for theism, in the way that belief or calimed knowldege do not make them "correct and accurate", to quote the afore mentioned clown.
The reason I took the time to adress this is because I'm sick and tired of this paticular mispresentation, and encountering it with almost every theist that I come across nowdays. I suppose I needed to get that off my system, so I apologize for the small rant on the obvious (or what should be obvious) :-\
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 07:37:12 AM
I meant dignity within the human race. I try not to act undignified in front of my dog, but I really want my dignity in and amongst other people. And I agree that everyone feels dignified for different reasons, perhaps. But, and I will ask this again, how is there dignity without a superior being giving one dignity?
Easy, the concept of dignity exists and god doesn't.
I'm not sure dignity is a feeling of being better than someone else either, which is basically what your definition boils down to. And if you want to view it so, then you would need an authority to bestow it on you. Thinking oneself as better than another is divisive, confrontational, and leads to wars.
QuoteMany in here have stated that they give themselves dignity by reflecting on their accomplishments. I would argue that's not real dignity, that's only a delusion of dignity.
You're a theist, so we would argue that everything you talk about is a delusion...so, yeah....
QuoteSome say that friends give them their dignity, but I would argue that if a person derives dignity from the opinions of their friends then they don't really have dignity.
Yes you would argue that, but you have no case other than "dignity can only be god given", which is no argument when we don't believe there is a god.
QuoteWe only seem to have true dignity when someone greater than we are sets us above and apart from others.
Not really. If someone is infirm and elderly, we may say we want to preserve their dignity when we care for them - if anything it's about empathy for others.
QuoteFor instance, if there is a God and he favors us, then we really do have dignity. We have a reason to feel worthy, because God has said we are. And if God has said it, no one can ever take it away.
There is no evidence of god favouring anyone, and no evidence of god. Nobody appears to be chosen and have god on their side.
QuoteIf there is no God, there is no basis for dignity, only the delusion of dignity.
If there is no god, then we - and that includes you - get to decide what is dignity, what is morality etc.
You are missing out on shaping your own world because you are leaving it all up to a being that doesn't communicate his wishes with anyone, apart from in the 2,000 year old book which of course no one can take literally without looking like an idiot.
QuoteI'm wondering at what point atheists stop being atheists and start believing in God again. What I mean is surely you have dignity, yes? So where does that dignity come from. If atheism is true, that is if there is no God, how can any human being have any dignity?
Going back to the OP, I'm curious, are you assuming that the process of becoming an atheist and then subsequently turning to God again is inevitable in some way? And why the focus on dignity in particular? Another poster suggested this as interchangeable with morals; I imagine any Christian could expand even further to substitute anything that has emerged in human culture and society, even including modern advances such as computers and so forth. No credit for human's own hard work? I wouldn't want to give credit for my hard work to survive on this badly designed planet away to God. Just a little ramble/rant.
My Grandfather was dignified, the way he carried himself, presented himself, refrained from vulgarity (I don't mean that he hardly used cuss words). I admired him, and aspire to that. I fail, but I like to keep trying.
I also felt less dignity within the context of Christian religious practices. At a time in my life when I needed to improve my self-esteem, I followed this path at the urging of a friend. I wonder how things might have been different now, years down the road.
I would actually say that to go against God's example is more dignified: by not lying, committing genocide or murder, by not judging people, by not setting a double standard---most humans manage to live up to a standard that God hasn't, making us in many ways more dignified and admirable than him. The fact that most people either praise him, ignore him, or are up to something else (other religions), rather than spending most of their days seething with anger at his cruelty is rather gracious and dignified of the bulk of humanity. ;)
QuoteWell, my point here was to suggest that in order to believe in dignity one must ultimately believe in God. A point I hope to prove.
I think we've seen a fair enough sampling of atheist responses, now I would like to see you follow through on this if you don't mind my asking. Don't beat around the bush, go straight to the heart of what your proving point is, and then let us work backward from there and question our way through it. There's been a lot of patience, humoring and
dignity from atheists here approaching your topic, so let's go to the point. I want to see what you've got, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt; let's see it. Prove your point. With dignity. Please. :)
Quote from: Tristan Jay on December 12, 2011, 10:16:40 AMQuote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 10:59:05 AMWell, my point here was to suggest that in order to believe in dignity one must ultimately believe in God. A point I hope to prove.
I think we've seen a fair enough sampling of atheist responses, now I would like to see you follow through on this if you don't mind my asking. Don't beat around the bush, go straight to the heart of what your proving point is, and then let us work backward from there and question our way through it. . . . I want to see what you've got, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt; let's see it. Prove your point. With dignity. Please. :)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg15.imageshack.us%2Fimg15%2F4086%2Ficonthis.gif&hash=4503a5b3090b25a564f737bffd6be3f0f1f4e2c0)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXVKl6.jpg&hash=13d137f39712a602535b3583cc4489fb905373cb)
Good post, Tristan Jay :)
Really, anyways, the main problem with this thread is that the word 'dignity' means different things within a spectrum of meaning to different people, under different circumstances. to me, it has more to do with intrinsic self-esteem, for others, more with what other's (generic others) think about them.
In that sense, I do have a sense of dignity that is not dependant on others, except perhaps some, and may be more in line with something you feel is given to you. I don't feel, however, that if a creator of the universe exists, that I'm more special because I believe in it. Actually, I find that to be rather undignified. If it's something that has to be given to you, then you don't have it. As in it's not part of your person. Then you really would need to defend the existence of some external powerful thing to give it to you.
Unimpressive.
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 07:37:12 AM
Quote from: Whitney on December 12, 2011, 01:25:21 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 11, 2011, 07:17:11 PM
"Dignity" today seems to relate to self-esteem or self-worth. A person could get his/her self-esteem or sense of self-worth from parents, from teachers, from self, from philosophy, from personal achievements, from any number of sources. It really boils down to how one feels about one's person. For the theist, experience with God or scripture can be another source, but there are multiple sources for everyone. Humans in general are at the pinnacle of the food chain, so whether you view yourself as being made in the image of God or as being the most advanced step in the process of evolution (or both), humans are still the "crown of creation" under either scenario, so there is a valid basis for having a positive image of self either way.
I think the above is good concise response to the question that anyone should be able to understand.
Egor, did you see the above? If so, how do you respond? Keep in mind that one of your fellow Christians wrote it so it's not an evil atheist point of view ;D
I meant dignity within the human race. I try not to act undignified in front of my dog, but I really want my dignity in and amongst other people. And I agree that everyone feels dignified for different reasons, perhaps. But, and I will ask this again, how is there dignity without a superior being giving one dignity?
Many in here have stated that they give themselves dignity by reflecting on their accomplishments. I would argue that's not real dignity, that's only a delusion of dignity.
Some say that friends give them their dignity, but I would argue that if a person derives dignity from the opinions of their friends then they don't really have dignity.
We only seem to have true dignity when someone greater than we are sets us above and apart from others. For instance, if there is a God and he favors us, then we really do have dignity. We have a reason to feel worthy, because God has said we are. And if God has said it, no one can ever take it away.
If there is no God, there is no basis for dignity, only the delusion of dignity.
As Ecurb pointed out...dignity is just a form of self esteem....self esteem is an inner state; not something that is handed to people. So, a higher being existing or not has no baring on if one has dignity.
You can't pretend like anyone expects human emotions to be logical....
I don't see a use in dignity, nor why someone would find value in it.
Quote from: Davin on December 12, 2011, 05:38:37 PM
I don't see a use in dignity, nor why someone would find value in it.
Oh, it's not something you can't do without, but sometimes being "dignified", or seeming to be so, can have an impact on how others percieve you.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 12, 2011, 06:43:18 PM
being "dignified", or seeming to be so, can have an impact on how others percieve you.
Which is another reason why it has nothing to do with a god existing or not. It's just a social concept.
Quote from: Whitney on December 12, 2011, 07:09:59 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 12, 2011, 06:43:18 PM
being "dignified", or seeming to be so, can have an impact on how others percieve you.
Which is another reason why it has nothing to do with a god existing or not. It's just a social concept.
Of course... Nothing I know of actually
requires a god, so that there has been my position from the start.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 12, 2011, 07:35:16 PM
Of course... Nothing I know of actually requires a god, so that there has been my position from the start.
Yup, that is the ultimate issue with any claim about the necessity of god existing.
This whole "Dignity can only come from god" stalemate is doomed to go on forever since Egor's concept of dignity is completely dependant on the approval of a being none of us believes is real.
Well, most of us. There are a few theists in the neighborhood.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 12, 2011, 07:50:09 PM
Well, most of us. There are a few theists in the neighborhood.
...and at least one of those does not seem to connect dignity and god, or so I recall.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 12, 2011, 02:29:11 PM
Good post, Tristan Jay :)
I try. :)
Quote from: Asmodean on December 12, 2011, 07:52:00 PM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 12, 2011, 07:50:09 PM
Well, most of us. There are a few theists in the neighborhood.
...and at least one of those does not seem to connect dignity and god, or so I recall.
Count me in there, too.
Quote from: Tristan Jay on December 12, 2011, 08:43:25 PM
Count me in there, too.
You a theist..? *Jack Sparrow* Have I bitten you before?*/Sparrow*
:P
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 09:07:04 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 12, 2011, 08:34:26 AM
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 07:25:24 AM
I meant dignity within the human race. I try not to act undignified in front of my dog, but I really want my dignity in and amongst other people. And I agree that everyone feels dignified for different reasons, perhaps. But, and I will ask this again, how is there dignity without a superior being giving one dignity?
Some say that friends give them their dignity, but I would argue that if a person derives dignity from the opinions of their friends then they don't really have dignity.
The bolded lines are in contradiction with each other. I'm sure you have an explanation.
I don't see how they contradict. I want to have my dignity recognized by other people, but other people don't give me dignity. They can't.
And I'm not trying to say that I have dignity and you don't. I think atheists do have dignity, and that's my point: Atheism is untrue.
Thanks for the explanation, the first bolded bit didn't make it clear that you merely wanted your belief in the Xtian god recognized by other people. However, personally, I think you're just playing word games. You write that one only has dignity as a believer in god, which would mean that atheists are automatically without dignity. But if you claim we do have dignity (a dignity that's definition is limited to your standards) then by the magic of manipulation atheists do believe in your god, we're just 1) lying about it or 2) mistaken in thinking we don't.
You're doing the very same thing you accused another poster of -- setting the bar exactly where you are able to clear it and then congratulating yourself on being able to clear it there, and for additional absurdity you're congratulating yourself on the idea that you've dragged other people over a bar they don't see, much less find any value in clearing.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 12, 2011, 08:46:41 PM
Quote from: Tristan Jay on December 12, 2011, 08:43:25 PM
Count me in there, too.
You a theist..? *Jack Sparrow* Have I bitten you before?*/Sparrow*
:P
I can't make any claims about quality, but go for it, have a little munch (just leave most of me as leftovers, I'll need that much). :D
Quote from: Tristan Jay on December 12, 2011, 10:16:40 AM
Going back to the OP, I'm curious, are you assuming that the process of becoming an atheist and then subsequently turning to God again is inevitable in some way? And why the focus on dignity in particular?
No, my point is that atheists try to have their cake and eat it too. They deny God exists but then claim to have dignity, yet only God can give a person dignity. Or at least that's the point I'm trying to make.
QuoteMy Grandfather was dignified, the way he carried himself, presented himself, refrained from vulgarity (I don't mean that he hardly used cuss words). I admired him, and aspire to that. I fail, but I like to keep trying.
Was your grandfather an atheist?
QuoteI also felt less dignity within the context of Christian religious practices. At a time in my life when I needed to improve my self-esteem, I followed this path at the urging of a friend. I wonder how things might have been different now, years down the road.
It is true: in order to be a follower of Christ, one has to be able to look in the mirror and say, "I'm not a good person. I can't make myself a good person. Only God's grace will keep me from the hell I deserve." Then one puts their faith in Christ, and then one is a new creature, transformed by God.
At which has more dignity, a person who wants to be formed into the perfection of Christ or a person who thinks they're perfect just as they are?
When it comes to self-esteem, I don't think Jesus would agree that we need it. I think he would find it a detriment to our spiritual health. He would rather we put our faith in the grace of God to save us.
That's why he said, anyone who will not give up their own life is not worthy to follow him. A person must take up their cross daily to follow him (the cross being a symbol of guilt and sin).
To grow spiritually, you have to realize you are not a good person. Self-esteem be damned.
QuoteI would actually say that to go against God's example is more dignified: by not lying, committing genocide or murder, by not judging people, by not setting a double standard---most humans manage to live up to a standard that God hasn't, making us in many ways more dignified and admirable than him.
God is the creator and destroyer of all things. All things are His. No one and no thing belongs to itself. We all belong to God body and soul. And here's a tip: one day, everything will die. You, me, and every living thing dies. I know you want God to be all-indulgent, but that's only because you don't see yourself clearly. As Jesus would say, your light is darkness, and therefore how great is that darkness.
QuoteThe fact that most people either praise him, ignore him, or are up to something else (other religions), rather than spending most of their days seething with anger at his cruelty is rather gracious and dignified of the bulk of humanity. ;)
I don't know what planet you're living on if you can really look at this world full of people and see a lot of dignity.
QuoteI think we've seen a fair enough sampling of atheist responses, now I would like to see you follow through on this if you don't mind my asking. Don't beat around the bush, go straight to the heart of what your proving point is, and then let us work backward from there and question our way through it. There's been a lot of patience, humoring and dignity from atheists here approaching your topic, so let's go to the point. I want to see what you've got, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt; let's see it. Prove your point. With dignity. Please. :)
1. Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2. A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3. Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4. A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5. Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6. Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7. If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.
Quote from: Tristan Jay on December 12, 2011, 09:41:31 PM
I can't make any claims about quality, but go for it, have a little munch (just leave most of me as leftovers, I'll need that much). :D
Neh... You don't seem quite biteable enough :P
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM
1. Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2. A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3. Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4. A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5. Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6. Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7. If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.
The first premise hinges on the working definition of "real". Are you talking about percieved or "absolute" reality?
The second is fallacious since a person can indeed give himself a "High position and worth"
The third is not a logical derivative from the second. (Sorry, Tank, I REALLY couldn't come up with a better example) I can not give myself a blowjob. Does that mean that no other person can give me one?
The fourth is not a logical derivative from any of the above
The fifth is a half-statement and should be grouped with the sixth under the same number.
Number six is not a logical derivative from any of the above with regard to dignity being a delusion
Number seven is the sum-total of the other fallacies.
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM
No, my point is that atheists try to have their cake and eat it too. They deny God exists but then claim to have dignity, yet only God can give a person dignity. Or at least that's the point I'm trying to make.
First of all, what is the point of having a cake if you cannot eat it? Secondly, it is not the case anyway - yes we do not believe god exists, so obviously we don't believe only god can give dignity. There's no contradiction there or anything.
QuoteIt is true: in order to be a follower of Christ, one has to be able to look in the mirror and say, "I'm not a good person. I can't make myself a good person. Only God's grace will keep me from the hell I deserve."
This makes me sad, that people can be so weak minded and unable to take responsibility for the sort of person that they are.
QuoteThen one puts their faith in Christ, and then one is a new creature, transformed by God.
You're actually the same creature, turning yourself into what you think is a better person, all by yourself, like you could have done as an atheist, except you believe god is behind it.
QuoteAt which has more dignity, a person who wants to be formed into the perfection of Christ or a person who thinks they're perfect just as they are?
Well, we don't know there was a perfect christ or even a christ, and on the other point, not accepting christ does not mean a person thinks he is perfect. I don't accept christ, neither do I think I'm perfect. I don't need christ either, to cope with my imperfection.
QuoteWhen it comes to self-esteem, I don't think Jesus would agree that we need it. I think he would find it a detriment to our spiritual health. He would rather we put our faith in the grace of God to save us.
That's why he said, anyone who will not give up their own life is not worthy to follow him. A person must take up their cross daily to follow him (the cross being a symbol of guilt and sin).
To grow spiritually, you have to realize you are not a good person. Self-esteem be damned.
I realise I'm a good person, so I can skip the god bit then?
QuoteGod is the creator and destroyer of all things. All things are His. No one and no thing belongs to itself. We all belong to God body and soul. And here's a tip: one day, everything will die. You, me, and every living thing dies.
Yes, we know everything will die. Not a reason to believe in a god.
QuoteI don't know what planet you're living on if you can really look at this world full of people and see a lot of dignity.
Your own words - not a lot of dignity. As roughly 90% of the worlds population are a theist, how do you explain the lack of dignity?
Quote1. Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
At best, it is a conceptual label and needs observers to accept that the subject is being dignified in their opinion.
Quote2. A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
Why? Don't just make statements, back them up with reasons.
Quote3. Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
Why? You made a statement about #2, you did not give a reason to believe #2 is true.
Quote4. A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
Why? Reasons please
Quote5. Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
Why?
Quote6. Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
Why? If the being does not exist, the statement "only god can give dignity" is invalid. It would then be up to us to create, and define dignity. If we want.
Quote7. If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.
Why? If atheism is true, then what we say goes, and if we say dignity is real and not god given, then that is that.
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM
1. Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2. A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3. Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4. A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5. Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6. Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7. If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.
I would contest premises 2 & 4. If this is your concept of dignity, then we are arguing about differing definitions. If you define dignity as something that by its very nature must be given by a "greater being," then this is not really an argument - it is simply a definition that you have adopted. People can have high self-esteem and grant that same esteem to others without God. I think you and most others here are arguing apples and oranges.
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM1. Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
OK, but your definition doesn't include the full meaning of the word, as can be seen by checking any worthwhile dictionary. See the definition posted by
Tank earlier in the thread, or Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dignity). In particular, see
4 ": formal reserve or seriousness of manner, appearance, or language."
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM2. A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
This is a bald assertion,
Egor. It seems to be essential to your position, and as such you need to do more than just present it as an axiom, because it isn't self evident, given that it contradicts the actual definition: See
4 above, clearly referring to a person's bearing, which is indeed something that they themselves are responsible for. This must be addressed, else your syllogism fails.
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM3. Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
Until #2 is repaired, #3 is meaningless. In addition, this contradicts Merriam-Webster's
1 ": the quality or state of being worthy, honored, or esteemed." You can of course make your own private definition of a word, but that doesn't mean that you can impose it on the rest of us who use the language.
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM4. A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
Another bald assertion which contradicts the actual meaning of the word "dignity." In Merriam-Webster's
2, there is reference to "rank, office, or position" which implies something bestowed by an authority, but authority does not by any means necessitate a "greater being." A king is not a greater being, for instance (except in a political sense), yet he is one who may confer rank, office, or position. Even accepting that dignity in Merriam-Webster's
2 requires some form of superiority, it's only one sense of the meaning of the word. It doesn't exhaustively cover the meaning, thus it's only by ignoring the rest of the meaning that your # 4 would be correct. You have some serious work to do to show why it's reasonable to only address one particular aspect of the meaning of the word. As well, you need to justify applying that aspect to the entire concept, while ignoring the other aspects which contradict your argument.
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM5. Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6. Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7. If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.
Either you address the problems with 1 through 4, or we can consider the syllogism dead, and points 5 through 7 become nonsensical. (I agree with
Asmodean: points 5 and 6 should either be reworded, or consolidated into a single point.)
I had hoped for better from you,
Egor.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on December 12, 2011, 10:57:38 PM
I would contest premises 2 & 4. If this is your concept of dignity, then we are arguing about differing definitions. If you define dignity as something that by its very nature must be given by a "greater being," then this is not really an argument - it is simply a definition that you have adopted. People can have high self-esteem and grant that same esteem to others without God. I think you and most others here are arguing apples and oranges.
Totally agree, as the actual definition of dignity has bugger all to do with religion and is more along the lines of the words nonchalance, elegance, phlegm (not the mucus meaning but the calmness of character).
Could you go back a bit and start over? Clarify the bald assertions you have made so far.
Why can dignity only exist if given by a god? It would be nice if you answered why your particular god over others too. Do you consider other sincere theists who are not Christians to not have any dignity? Is that a convenient position for you that your god alone can bestow dignity?
I still don't know what egor thinks "dignity" means.
All I can assume is he thinks it means being of value to a higher power...in which case, duh, you'd have to have a higher power in order to have (his idea) of dignity.
But that's not what dignity actually means so, whatever...no point arguing with someone who defines words in whatever way they want.
Quote from: Whitney on December 12, 2011, 11:24:44 PM
no point arguing with someone who defines words in whatever way they want.
Fun, personal amusement, wasting time... Those are reasons. They ARE. ;D
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM
1. Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2. A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3. Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4. A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5. Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6. Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7. If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.
1. Dignity is an emotional state of expressing high self esteem in both action and mannerism.
2. Humans are able to express emotions.
3. Therefore, humans can have dignity.
If you define the word correctly it gets much easier and doesn't require false premises.
Quote from: Whitney on December 12, 2011, 11:30:04 PM
If you define the word correctly it gets much easier and doesn't require false premises.
Uncanny, that... Seven bad ones to three even The Asmo can live with just like THAT *snap fingers* ;D
and just for fun...here is the definition again:
dig·ni·ty
[dig-ni-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural -ties.
1.
bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation.
QuoteAll things are His. No one and no thing belongs to itself. We all belong to God body and soul.
Can I really be blamed that statements like this makes me thing of thei type of a "god" as a megalomannic yet akward teenager with severe ego problems...?
"I want it all! You can't have it! Blaaah :P "
Sorry, but that's the mental image I always get.... :-\
QuoteOr at least that's the point I'm trying to make.
I actaully see no point, only an assertion that is apparently based upon a certain kind of defenition for the word "dignity", as other already noted....
Quote from: Whitney on December 12, 2011, 11:24:44 PMI still don't know what egor thinks "dignity" means.
From what I can tell given my interactions with him in this thread, dignity is to Egor what snausages are to a dog - a treat given by the master for pleasing him.
The reason why I'm asking about your focus on Dignity, and my own concern about Christians plugging in any other word that is a characteristic of our human condition is that I'm worried about Christians de-humanizing Atheists/non-Christians. On a Christian Forum, I encountered a xtian poster who believed that Love of a non-xtian was inferior compared to xtians. I've considered introducing this as a separate thread. Something for Christians to examine about themselves, something to keep an eye out for. Very troubling.
QuoteWas your grandfather an atheist?
:o
Without overreacting, I will reiterate what my Grandfather was:
Dignified. I miss him, and hope he is at peace. He is no longer with us. I mentioned him as an aspect of my personal life, humanity, vulnerablility. Beyond that, it is not a point to be proved here in a dignified discourse, please. Thank you. Just wanting to draw a line, let's move on.
QuoteIt is true: in order to be a follower of Christ, one has to be able to look in the mirror and say, "I'm not a good person. I can't make myself a good person. Only God's grace will keep me from the hell I deserve." Then one puts their faith in Christ, and then one is a new creature, transformed by God.
At which has more dignity, a person who wants to be formed into the perfection of Christ or a person who thinks they're perfect just as they are?
When it comes to self-esteem, I don't think Jesus would agree that we need it. I think he would find it a detriment to our spiritual health. He would rather we put our faith in the grace of God to save us.
That's why he said, anyone who will not give up their own life is not worthy to follow him. A person must take up their cross daily to follow him (the cross being a symbol of guilt and sin).
To grow spiritually, you have to realize you are not a good person. Self-esteem be damned.
I guess where I'm coming from, I'm seeing a need for what would look more like a healthier relationship between God and humanity. Better knowledge of how to exercise our free will in helpful and less harmful way, a little bit more power/control over our ability to strongly exercise it in positive ways. A bit more honesty and clarity in discourse, less confusion. A good authority figure should empower people to be able to take care of themselves, and thusly, each other. If I have difficulty taking care of myself, how can I be generous toward others? Furthermore, God wanting us to rely on him can cripple a person's will to act responsibly for themselves in ways that must be done for the purpose of survival. Self-esteem is in there somewhere, I just can't integrate it right now, sorry.
QuoteGod is the creator and destroyer of all things. All things are His. No one and no thing belongs to itself. We all belong to God body and soul. And here's a tip: one day, everything will die. You, me, and every living thing dies. I know you want God to be all-indulgent, but that's only because you don't see yourself clearly. As Jesus would say, your light is darkness, and therefore how great is that darkness.
Can you clarify or define what you mean by all-indulgent? I would like to be able to respond more fully to this. As for God being greater, or claiming he is, well I personally find it more admirable when gods or "greater" humans (on any level) don't feel like they have to go out of their way to tell others, or make others submit to them in some way, and instead focus their energy on helping. This planet seems symptomatic enough of a God who
doesn't help enough, or doesn't want to help more, while at the same time demanding that we rely on and trust him on pain of death and torture for an eternity in punishment for only a life time's worth of questionably defined transgression. Not very sporting. Or maybe it's a rather disappointing fiction? God is capable of knowing and doing everything, we are told, so we can ask him. Just...don't hold your breath while waiting for directness from this guy.
QuoteI don't know what planet you're living on if you can really look at this world full of people and see a lot of dignity.
:John Crichton Mode:
Fine. For the 89th time: Once upon a time, there was a god named God, and he lived in a void, and he is so mysterious, you can't imagine him! One day, while God was out doing godly things, he decide to make this amazing life filled garden, and then he decided to make some nice new friends. :) The only problem was, God was unhappy that his new friends also wanted to do different things that he didn't like, even though he made them that way! :o ??? They could have lived happily ever after, except that God decide to rape, torture and confuse the hell out of us for thousands of years on end! So here and now we are, still getting our asses shot off again and again, yet, miracle of miracles, there are so many people on this planet who want to make nice and be friends with him! I think the human race deserves kudos for being so generous.
:/John Crichton Mode:
Quote1. Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2. A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3. Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4. A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5. Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6. Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7. If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.
This is good, because now you and everyone else here have something to work with. Where atheists are not convinced is where you know that you can refine your proof/argument. Approach it this way, and this could be very constructive.
Quote from: history_geek on December 12, 2011, 11:52:51 PM
QuoteAll things are His. No one and no thing belongs to itself. We all belong to God body and soul.
Can I really be blamed that statements like this makes me thing of thei type of a "god" as a megalomannic yet akward teenager with severe ego problems...?
"I want it all! You can't have it! Blaaah :P "
Sorry, but that's the mental image I always get.... :-\
Also, The Asmo's cigarettes belong to The Asmo. God can't have them. >:(
Quote from: Asmodean on December 12, 2011, 10:34:28 PM
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM
1. Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2. A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3. Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4. A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5. Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6. Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7. If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.
The first premise hinges on the working definition of "real". Are you talking about percieved or "absolute" reality?
The second is fallacious since a person can indeed give himself a "High position and worth"
The third is not a logical derivative from the second. (Sorry, Tank, I REALLY couldn't come up with a better example) I can not give myself a blowjob. Does that mean that no other person can give me one?
The fourth is not a logical derivative from any of the above
The fifth is a half-statement and should be grouped with the sixth under the same number.
Number six is not a logical derivative from any of the above with regard to dignity being a delusion
Number seven is the sum-total of the other fallacies.
That was a great job of deconstructing faulty logic!!
Quote from: Gawen on December 13, 2011, 12:29:49 AM
That was a great job of deconstructing faulty logic!!
It was though, wasn't it? ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on December 13, 2011, 12:31:47 AM
Quote from: Gawen on December 13, 2011, 12:29:49 AM
That was a great job of deconstructing faulty logic!!
It was though, wasn't it? ;D
YUP.
I simply must add my two cents in this.
Premise #1:
Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.What Egor has to do is define "dignity", "real", "state", "high position" and "worth".
Premise #2:A human cannot give him or herself dignity.Prove or show evidence that this is so.
Premise #3:Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.Show how this logically comes from Premise #2.
Premise #4:A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.Define a "greater being".
Show that this "greater being" exists.
Show how and why a "greater being" is
required to give humans dignity.
Define "real dignity" as compared to human "delusional" dignity (as Egor suggested on the previous page.
Wait, Egor's right. I found it.
DIGNITY
dig·ni·ty/dig-ni-tee
noun
1.
An unattainable state of one's self-worth granted only by the approval of the Christian God of the New Testament.
2.
A feeling of elevated personal value or "higher being" as pertains to 1.
3.
Don't even think a wretched, sinful creature like yourself can be dignified without the Blessing of God.
4.
Suck it atheists.
Source: http://crackpotreligiousideas.reference.com/browse/dignity/seriously/no-seriously
I guess that settles that. :-[
*With thanks to Tank
The link. Why doesn't it work?! >:( Asmo needs that site up and running for his amusement tonight.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 13, 2011, 02:02:27 AM
The link. Wht doesn't it work?! >:( Asmo needs that site up and running for his amusement tonight.
;D
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 13, 2011, 02:03:31 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 13, 2011, 02:02:27 AM
The link. Wht doesn't it work?! >:( Asmo needs that site up and running for his amusement tonight.
;D
How undignified of you! To SWINDLE The Asmo like that! >:( You know what The LORD thy God said about swindlers, right? >:( RIGHT?! >:(
Seriously though, wouldn't surprise me if something like that was actually posted on some "legitimate" site, with no crackpot in its name :P
Weird, how no matter what crazy idea you propose, as long as it involves religion, there is (almost) always a... Well, a crackpot, who will swallow it whole. (Then twist it and probably open a church dedicated to it) Actually, it's not as much weird, due to the nature of religion, as it is distasteful.
Damn, I also thought the link was legit :(
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2011, 02:16:28 AM
Damn, I also thought the link was legit :(
We are too gullible today. The Asmo, he just ate a lemon to remedy that. ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on December 13, 2011, 02:18:04 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2011, 02:16:28 AM
Damn, I also thought the link was legit :(
We are too gullible today. The Asmo, he just ate a lemon to remedy that. ;D
True. A lemon, hey? :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X
I'll...only try that after you show me demonstrable results that it worked ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on December 13, 2011, 02:07:18 AM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 13, 2011, 02:03:31 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 13, 2011, 02:02:27 AM
The link. Wht doesn't it work?! >:( Asmo needs that site up and running for his amusement tonight.
;D
How undignified of you! To SWINDLE The Asmo like that! >:( You know what The LORD thy God said about swindlers, right? >:( RIGHT?! >:(
Seriously though, wouldn't surprise me if something like that was actually posted on some "legitimate" site, with no crackpot in its name :P
Weird, how no matter what crazy idea you propose, as long as it involves religion, there is (almost) always a... Well, a crackpot, who will swallow it whole. (Then twist it and probably open a church dedicated to it) Actually, it's not as much weird, due to the nature of religion, as it is distasteful.
There is just no idea too crazy that some religion can't apply it and whose followers won't embrace it as the word of god. Need proof? We live in a world with Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness AND Scientology...to name just a few. :o
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 13, 2011, 02:36:05 AM
There is just no idea too crazy that some religion can't apply it and whose followers won't embrace it as the word of god. Need proof? We live in a world with Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness AND Scientology...to name just a few. :o
I always find this weird when people mention the above religions and leave out Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2011, 02:16:28 AMDamn, I also thought the link was legit :(
No, I'm sorry. The link is a lie...y'know, like religion. ;)
Quote from: Crow on December 13, 2011, 02:43:05 AM
Quote from: MadBomr101 on December 13, 2011, 02:36:05 AM
There is just no idea too crazy that some religion can't apply it and whose followers won't embrace it as the word of god. Need proof? We live in a world with Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness AND Scientology...to name just a few. :o
I always find this weird when people mention the above religions and leave out Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Well, in fact, they're ALL crackpot. I just needed a few at random to illustrate my point. However, feel free to add ANY other religion to that list.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 13, 2011, 02:16:28 AM
Damn, I also thought the link was legit :(
The "seriously/no-seriously" kinda tipped me off but I clicked it too -- just in case.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 13, 2011, 04:42:43 AMThe "seriously/no-seriously" kinda tipped me off but I clicked it too -- just in case.
And another one has fallen victim to my nefarious trap. (*insert diabolical laughter here*)
Quote from: Tristan Jay on December 12, 2011, 11:59:14 PM
:o
Without overreacting, I will reiterate what my Grandfather was: Dignified. I miss him, and hope he is at peace. He is no longer with us. I mentioned him as an aspect of my personal life, humanity, vulnerablility. Beyond that, it is not a point to be proved here in a dignified discourse, please. Thank you. Just wanting to draw a line, let's move on.
Hey, you're the one who brought him up in the first place. I just asked if he was an atheist.
QuoteAt which has more dignity, a person who wants to be formed into the perfection of Christ or a person who thinks they're perfect just as they are?
Anyone who thinks they're perfect just the way they are is unjustifiably narcissistic.
QuoteCan you clarify or define what you mean by all-indulgent?
No. Not really.
Quote
:John Crichton Mode:
Fine. For the 89th time: Once upon a time, there was a god named God, and he lived in a void, and he is so mysterious, you can't imagine him! One day, while God was out doing godly things, he decide to make this amazing life filled garden, and then he decided to make some nice new friends. :) The only problem was, God was unhappy that his new friends also wanted to do different things that he didn't like, even though he made them that way! :o ??? They could have lived happily ever after, except that God decide to rape, torture and confuse the hell out of us for thousands of years on end! So here and now we are, still getting our asses shot off again and again, yet, miracle of miracles, there are so many people on this planet who want to make nice and be friends with him! I think the human race deserves kudos for being so generous.
:/John Crichton Mode:
Tristan Mode: I would like to
...sniffle, sniffle... just move on now in a dignified discourse. /Tristan mode
1. Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2. A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3. Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4. A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5. Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6. Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7. If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.QuoteThis is good, because now you and everyone else here have something to work with. Where atheists are not convinced is where you know that you can refine your proof/argument. Approach it this way, and this could be very constructive.
The above is the way I see it. I fully realize it is not a rock solid, Boolean logical analysis of dignity. But you or someone asked me to state exactly what I believe and this is it. And from the beginning, all I've asked is what foundation atheists have for their dignity.
I'm satisfied I have the answer to that question: from their own belief that they are good or from other people telling them they are good.
Anyone in here disagree? If not. Let's start a new thread.
Quote from: Asmodean on December 12, 2011, 10:34:28 PM
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM
1. Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2. A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3. Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4. A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5. Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6. Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7. If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.
The first premise hinges on the working definition of "real". Are you talking about percieved or "absolute" reality?
An absolute reality. Anything less would not be real dignity but only the illusion of dignity. If one wants to claim that dignity is an illusion, I can accept that. I won't agree with it, but I think it's a way of answering the question of the OP.
QuoteThe second is fallacious since a person can indeed give himself a "High position and worth"
Well, that's your opinion. I'm not talking about a bank account and a job. I'm talking about a standing within humanity as a whole.
QuoteThe third is not a logical derivative from the second. (Sorry, Tank, I REALLY couldn't come up with a better example) I can not give myself a blowjob. Does that mean that no other person can give me one?
Nice example of dignity. That also answers my question stated in the OP. Especially since you say you "cannot" come up with a better example. Be that as it may...
If no person can give himself or herself dignity, they have no dignity to give to anyone else. It doesn't matter what any other human thinks of my worth or position, they're just a human being like me.
QuoteThe fourth is not a logical derivative from any of the above
Correct, it's an independent premise and something that could be debated further.
QuoteThe fifth is a half-statement and should be grouped with the sixth under the same number.
Number six is not a logical derivative from any of the above with regard to dignity being a delusion
No, #6 is true if the other statements are true.
QuoteNumber seven is the sum-total of the other fallacies.
It's the sum total, I agree. (not with the "fallacies" part).
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftrcs.wikispaces.com%2Ffile%2Fview%2F1.gif%2F30211658%2F1.gif&hash=adb549fa76cdefd2de58921817765d4511db8476)
Oooooh, that looks dignified.
Letting your body know whose boss, driving out temptation, getting closer to god, ye.
Quote from: Egor on December 13, 2011, 07:28:05 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on December 12, 2011, 10:34:28 PM
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM
1. Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2. A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3. Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4. A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5. Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6. Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7. If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.
The first premise hinges on the working definition of "real". Are you talking about percieved or "absolute" reality?
An absolute reality. Anything less would not be real dignity but only the illusion of dignity. If one wants to claim that dignity is an illusion, I can accept that. I won't agree with it, but I think it's a way of answering the question of the OP.
QuoteThe second is fallacious since a person can indeed give himself a "High position and worth"
Well, that's your opinion. I'm not talking about a bank account and a job. I'm talking about a standing within humanity as a whole.
QuoteThe third is not a logical derivative from the second. (Sorry, Tank, I REALLY couldn't come up with a better example) I can not give myself a blowjob. Does that mean that no other person can give me one?
Nice example of dignity. That also answers my question stated in the OP. Especially since you say you "cannot" come up with a better example. Be that as it may...
If no person can give himself or herself dignity, they have no dignity to give to anyone else. It doesn't matter what any other human thinks of my worth or position, they're just a human being like me.
QuoteThe fourth is not a logical derivative from any of the above
Correct, it's an independent premise and something that could be debated further.
QuoteThe fifth is a half-statement and should be grouped with the sixth under the same number.
Number six is not a logical derivative from any of the above with regard to dignity being a delusion
No, #6 is true if the other statements are true.
QuoteNumber seven is the sum-total of the other fallacies.
It's the sum total, I agree. (not with the "fallacies" part).
And all of this you base on your defenition of "dignity", that requires a "higher being" that you chose to be the Abrahamic "god". To quote Tank:
Quotedig·ni·ty
[dig-ni-tee]
noun, plural -ties.
1.
bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation.
2.
nobility or elevation of character; worthiness: dignity of sentiments.
3.
elevated rank, office, station, etc.
4.
relative standing; rank.
5.
a sign or token of respect: an impertinent question unworthy of the dignity of an answer.
I think the best example is "elevation of character", since this can be done by the person themselves or others. And we're not talking about rank or station, which comes next.
And as for Asmo's example, it is about something one cannot do to oneself but what someone else can. Even if it is a bit on the extremely erotic side.. ;D
And to be honest I can't think of a different example that would be as fitting... :-\
But really, it comes always back to the fact that all of this hangs on your defeniton that requires the existance of a being that most of don't even believe to exist.
and I don't think anyones yet answered: Why does the being that is able to give dgnity have to be the Abrahamic "god, or even more precisely the Christian version of it? Why not Krishna, Ukko, Odin, etc. or the Deistic "god"?
Also, why leave things like "all-indulgent" undefined, when they seem to be rather important to your assertion? That's not what I understand as propper debate where one needs to clearly define what one means when speaking about such subjective matter as "god" and the like, in order for everyone to grasp what exaclty it is that you are trying to say... :-\
OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on December 13, 2011, 09:36:06 AM
OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.
Yep. And achieved nothing whatsoever in the process.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on December 13, 2011, 09:36:06 AM
OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.
Yeah, I came to that conclusion too when I read his definition. It's a bit like me defining dignity as 'a real state of high position and worth that only comes from looking at the universe in a rational and scientific way and by not worshipping any supernatural power or having any lord or master', and then starting a thread asking how can any Christian have any dignity?
Obviously they can't because I've made up my own definition of dignity that automatically precludes Christians. It's crap logic.
Quote from: history_geek on December 13, 2011, 08:46:10 AM
And as for Asmo's example, it is about something one cannot do to oneself but what someone else can. Even if it is a bit on the extremely erotic side.. ;D
Yes. I was contesting the premise that because A can not give A something, B can not give it to A either.
The example was born out of lack of things I REALLY can not give myself. I was through objects, status, happiness, even love... But those I can, at least to a degree, obtain through own effort.
My back is too stiff for a selfblowing though.
Asmo, you're blowing your dignity....ummm...
yeah....by whinging about not being able to give yourself self-gratification in one particular way. Bite the bullet...ahhhh...
yeah....and bake an apple pie.
Besides, it seems it would be difficult to breathe when you're bent over trying to gag yourself.
And you'll strain your back....
again...
*laffin*
Quote from: Gawen on December 13, 2011, 12:28:17 PM
Asmo, you're blowing your dignity....ummm...
yeah....by whinging about not being able to give yourself self-gratification in one particular way. Bite the bullet...ahhhh...
yeah....and bake an apple pie.
Besides, it seems it would be difficult to breathe when you're bent over trying to gag yourself.
And you'll strain your back....
again...
*laffin*
What?! I have a back injury that does indeed stop me from
knowing meself in the biblical sense ;D
Quote from: Egor on December 13, 2011, 07:04:20 AM
Tristan Mode: I would like to...sniffle, sniffle... just move on now in a dignified discourse. /Tristan mode
I'll let this slide since others have taken some shots at you too.
General warning to all...try not to be mean.
Quote
1. Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2. A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3. Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4. A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5. Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6. Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7. If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.
stating the same thing again doesn't make it more true.
QuoteThe above is the way I see it. I fully realize it is not a rock solid, Boolean logical analysis of dignity.
It's not even a liquified rock.
Quoteand But you or someone asked me to state exactly what I believe and this is it.
Ya. because otherwise you are preaching and have no business here.
QuoteAnd from the beginning, all I've asked is what foundation atheists have for their dignity.
the same "foundation" as every other human...including all theists other than yourself apparently.
Quote
I'm satisfied I have the answer to that question: from their own belief that they are good or from other people telling them they are good.
Who said dignity had anything to do with being "good"
As someone else already pointed out...are you just trying to say dignity instead of morals? I would say that is a clever trick, but it's not. The words have nothing to do with each other.
QuoteAnyone in here disagree? If not. Let's start a new thread.
How about you back up your claims; you have yet to justify your question in the OP as being anything more than baiting.
Quote from: Tank on December 13, 2011, 09:41:38 AM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on December 13, 2011, 09:36:06 AM
OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.
Yep. And achieved nothing whatsoever in the process.
I'm sure it made Ed feel good about himself, that's
something.
Quote from: AsmoWhat?! I have a back injury that does indeed stop me from knowing meself in the biblical sense ;D
Have you tried yoga?
Quote from: Too Few Lions on December 13, 2011, 10:17:59 AM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on December 13, 2011, 09:36:06 AM
OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.
Yeah, I came to that conclusion too when I read his definition. It's a bit like me defining dignity as 'a real state of high position and worth that only comes from looking at the universe in a rational and scientific way and by not worshipping any supernatural power or having any lord or master', and then starting a thread asking how can any Christian have any dignity?
Obviously they can't because I've made up my own definition of dignity that automatically precludes Christians. It's crap logic.
That actually would be a valid question (though not worded that way, lol), for anyone who is a biblical literalist. One is asked to humble themselves in front of god and humble (not proud) is the opposite of dignity (high self esteem).
James 4:6 ESV
But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
here's the rest of the related verses for "humble" http://www.openbible.info/topics/being_humble
Makes me wonder why Egor is so obsessed with the idea of being dignified....
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 13, 2011, 03:36:17 PM
Have you tried yoga?
Too easy to do more harm than good. It was actually quite broken, you see, my back was. And in the process of ruining it, I've also killed one of the disks between the vertebrae and nearly killed another.
Quote from: Whitney on December 13, 2011, 03:31:39 PM
Quote from: Egor on December 13, 2011, 07:04:20 AM
Tristan Mode: I would like to...sniffle, sniffle... just move on now in a dignified discourse. /Tristan mode
I'll let this slide since others have taken some shots at you too.
General warning to all...try not to be mean.
Hmmm...I'm not sure how I offended Egor, if I did, my apologies to you, Egor. PM me and let me know where my etiquette failed for your liking, and I'll try to do better by yourself and other Christians. My rejection of or disliking of God is not meant to be a rejection of or disliking of individual Christians...
I figure at this point we have Egor's outline for the basis of his conclusions, and Egor has some feedback on how to refine it. I personally have difficulty with these logic/proof structures, I'm way out of practice (and my mind is too distracted) to follow through on it. But I'll try and follow it as best I can.
Just to follow up in a straightforward manner, Egor, is this 7-point logic construct open for refinement, or is this finalized enough to your liking? Obviously at this point there are reservations from people that it is conclusive, what's next?
Quote from: Tank on December 13, 2011, 09:41:38 AM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on December 13, 2011, 09:36:06 AM
OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.
Yep. And achieved nothing whatsoever in the process.
Yes, I did, actually. I got all the responses I was looking for. All I ever wanted to know in this string is what atheists base their dignity on. And the overall answer is that you give yourselves dignity.
Quote from: Egor on December 13, 2011, 07:34:33 PM
Quote from: Tank on December 13, 2011, 09:41:38 AM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on December 13, 2011, 09:36:06 AM
OK, so Egor has simply "made up" his own definition of dignity. Conversation over then.
Yep. And achieved nothing whatsoever in the process.
Yes, I did, actually. I got all the responses I was looking for. All I ever wanted to know in this string is what atheists base their dignity on. And the overall answer is that you give yourselves dignity.
Which is no different than a Christian or any other theist.
Quote from: Whitney on December 13, 2011, 03:31:39 PM
I'll let this slide since others have taken some shots at you too.
General warning to all...try not to be mean.
Thank you. And I will try.
QuoteYa. because otherwise you are preaching and have no business here.
I didn't want to go into my beliefs at all! I wanted to talk about y'all's beliefs.
QuoteHow about you back up your claims; you have yet to justify your question in the OP as being anything more than baiting.
Baiting nothing. What are you trying to do, manipulate things into some kind of breakage of the rules? Whether you ban a person outright or manipulate the person into being banned makes no difference. If you cant take the heat,
ban the theist seems to be the way you atheists behave. All you can tolerate is the weak Christians who come in, get offended, and run off. Well, I dont run off. So lets recap: What did I ask in the OP? Here, let me restate:
I'm wondering at what point atheists stop being atheists and start believing in God again. What I mean is surely you have dignity, yes? So where does that dignity come from. If atheism is true, that is if there is no God, how can any human being have any dignity?I asked you a couple of questions. I wanted your comments. I didnt make any claims at all. Everyone seems to want to try to throw it back on me rather than answering a simple freakin question. Because you cant answer it in the way you would like, can you?
I even offered to end this string. Why keep it going? I feel you have answered the question the best youre ever going to answer it.
You (meaning atheists in this string) have basically rested on the notion that a person has dignity if they give themselves dignity.
If thats not correct, then correct me. Dont get all in a tiff and start talking baiting and preaching etc. Its your forum. You can ban me without any reason at all.
So, do you have an answer? Do you want to correct my opinion of where you get your dignity? Do you want to just end this string?
Ill tell you what. Ill even go one step further. Youre the administrator; youve involved yourself in this discussion. So, as the leader of this forum, I will take your response as my final answer to the questions I stated in the OP. You should have the last word.
I, for one, have no reason to respond in this string anymore. So, dont say Im running off, because Im not. This string has served its purpose in my opinion, especially with your last word on the subject.
Ill let things cool down a bit, maybe respond to some other peoples posts (although that always seems to end up making them my posts), and then Ill ask another question in another string, because I have a burning question Im just dying to ask you all.
So, Im out. But I look forward to reading your reply.
Ed :-X
Sounds to me like a case of:
"I'm not retreating, I am advancing in a different direction!"
Quote from: Egor on December 13, 2011, 07:51:18 PMIf you can't take the heat, ban the theist seems to be the way you atheists behave. All you can tolerate is the weak Christians who come in, get offended, and run off.
Egor, though
Whitney most likely will speak for herself, I'd like to comment on this. I've been a member here for years, and have observed Christians come and stay here, as well as drift away (and occasionally get banned; there have been several atheists who have gotten themselves banned as well). As far as I can tell, Christians are welcome here, not merely tolerated; I personally value Christian members because they often create threads like this one which serve as an excellent basis for discussion. When you were here before, as far as I know you're the one who decided to leave. Your simplistic "you atheists" comment is inaccurate and fatuous.
Quote from: Egor on December 13, 2011, 07:51:18 PMWell, I don't run off.
Good. Observe the rules of this place, and you'll be here as long as you like: Post the toughest questions you can think of while maintaining a civil manner and refraining from preaching.
Quote from: Egor on December 13, 2011, 07:51:18 PMYou (meaning atheists in this string) have basically rested on the notion that a person has dignity if they give themselves dignity.
Heh, again with the simplistic approach. As far as I can see, all that the atheist members have done in this thread is agree with the recognized definition of the word "dignity." This includes not only the bearing exhibited by individuals, but also the esteem and respect of other people, as well as honor conferred by some form of authority. It's not as if this understanding of the definition of "dignity" is exclusive to atheists,
Egor, though it seems like you've tried to characterize it as such.
* * *
Quote from: Guardian85 on December 13, 2011, 08:45:18 PMSounds to me like a case of:
"I'm not retreating, I am advancing in a different direction!"
I disagree (if you're implying that
Egor is beating an ignominious retreat while proclaiming otherwise). Not only is discretion the better part of valor, but
Egor's reason for letting this thread drop is reasonable: He has the answer that he was seeking (even if his understanding of that answer seems inadequate to me) and would like to proceed to a new topic.
It was intended as a humourous comment, rather than a serious critique.
But your point is acnowledged.
Egor, I don't care if you continue this thread because there is nothing more to discus. We have figured out that you like to redefine words to mean something that they don't. Pretty pointless.
Presenting "dignity" as something that must be given to someone and then going on to say that it must be god is the part I am calling preaching. If you're going to state something you have to be able to logically back it up and your 7 part "proof" was shown to be severely faulty...yet you exhibited no care to defend it further even after admitting that it needed work.
Play the persecution card all you want...it only makes you look bad to those that know how things really work around here. If any other theist actually agrees with you on your understanding of dignity (and I highly doubt it) they are free to jump in and try to explain how such a position makes sense.
If you were actually in any danger of being banned in the near future it would have been made clear. And, for the record, I don't have to build up a case or manipulate to ban you ; I personally chose (along with the direction of early members/moderators) to make HAF a place where everyone is treated fairly under the rules and I am confident that any observer who isn't already biased against atheists would see that we do a pretty good job of sticking to being fair across the board (theist or atheist).
And I don't speak for anyone but myself...I'm not the "leader" of any member here and anyone who so desires can have the last word (and since threads are rarely locked the actual last word could be months from now...or even years when someone performs thread necromancy).
Quote from: Egor on December 13, 2011, 07:51:18 PM
I have a burning question I'm just dying to ask you all.
By all means, ask it. No reason to hurt yourself. I, for one, am very interested.
Quote from: Whitney on December 13, 2011, 09:34:07 PM
I am confident that any observer who isn't already biased against atheists would see that we do a pretty good job of sticking to being fair across the board (theist or atheist).
An exceptional reminder of that exists in this very thread. The Asmo was taking his Asmo-ness too far, and Tank, he was onto it and very fast.
(I did, however, send Tank a message asking him to evaluate the percieved level of offensiveness in what I wrote at about the same time as he posted his comment, so it was a short and easy-to-close case)
As a Christian here on HAF, I'd like to say that up to this point I've been fairly and kindly treated and I don't anticipate it changing anytime soon.
On the subject, I'll throw out a thought. It's possible that Egor is equating the "Absolute Moral" argument with 'Dignity'. I'm not certain it extends to simple ideas/feelings such as 'dignity'. I've had a hard time following Egor's line of thinking and certainly disagree more than I've agreed so far. Maybe if you, Egor, take your next step in questioning or continuing here, I may understand better later and maybe even chime in.
Well, the fact that this is a discussion board...emphasis on 'discussion'. It's all well and good to come here and ask a question. I have no problem with that. But when the person who poses the question comes back with a number of assertions of an opposing POV and does nothing to back them up...well, what can I say? Seems to much like a drive-by and makes the OP and the 10 page thread virtually worthless.
You asked the question, people answered, but there's still a problem of definition, IMO. You define the word 'dignity' in a way that excludes atheists, we point out the faulty logic but you still insist on maining your definition. So yes, that is having your cake and eating it.
But oh, well.
I think we should start a drinking game - every time Egor complains that he's going to get banned, even though no one is threatening to ban him, we all take a shot.
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
You could have dignity from yourself, but that would be a kind of delusional dignity. You could have dignity from what others think about you, but that is capricious and can be taken away by those same people. Or you can have dignity from the judgment of a being who is greater than yourself, but that could only be God. So that's why I ask where an atheist derives their dignity. Assuming there is no God, can there really be any such thing as dignity or can there only be the illusion of dignity?
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.
I saw a tiger look at my daughter when she was little, there were bars so I wasn't worried, it is creepy though, being seen as meat.
I find Egor's posts creepy, it seems I'm being being dehumanized, there is a basis for Egor having dignity, none for me though.
So I find myself in the company of an advanced being, I am now a relatively lower being.
People that think this way have killed so many more people than tigers.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 14, 2011, 01:28:32 AM
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
You could have dignity from yourself, but that would be a kind of delusional dignity. You could have dignity from what others think about you, but that is capricious and can be taken away by those same people. Or you can have dignity from the judgment of a being who is greater than yourself, but that could only be God. So that's why I ask where an atheist derives their dignity. Assuming there is no God, can there really be any such thing as dignity or can there only be the illusion of dignity?
Quote from: Egor on December 11, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.
I saw a tiger look at my daughter when she was little, there were bars so I wasn't worried, it is creepy though, being seen as meat.
I find Egor's posts creepy, it seems I'm being being dehumanized, there is a basis for Egor having dignity, none for me though.
So I find myself in the company of an advanced being, I am now a relatively lower being.
People that think this way have killed so many more people than tigers.
Yeaaaah, I'm not all that convinced when he says he hates "atheism" and not "atheists". It gives me a feeling similar to when I hear homo-phobes say they "hate the sin, not the sinner" and then do everything they can to make a gay person's life miserable.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 14, 2011, 01:31:02 AM
Yeaaaah, I'm not all that convinced when he says he hates "atheism" and not "atheists". It gives me a feeling similar to when I hear homo-phobes say they "hate the sin, not the sinner" and then do everything they can to make a gay person's life miserable.
...And then their LORD and MASTER sends them packing to the warm place to swirl on Asmo's Spit, because hate is akin to wrath and that one is a diddly sin... Eh... Doodly... No, that was not it either... ???
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 14, 2011, 01:15:46 AM
I think we should start a drinking game - every time Egor complains that he's going to get banned, even though no one is threatening to ban him, we all take a shot.
I don't drink but I'm in if I can take a sip of sparkling cider each time he anticipates being banned.
Quote from: Egor on December 13, 2011, 07:51:18 PM
I didn't want to go into my beliefs at all! I wanted to talk about y'all's beliefs.
If this were true, you wouldn't have spent so much time arguing that all the answers you got were invalid and "dignity" could only be defined by your frequently repeated standards (which seem to me to describe a state of grace more than dignity, but I suppose it would have been way too ridiculous to come into an atheist forum asking how atheists enter into a state of grace without a god).
Quote from: Recusant on December 13, 2011, 08:52:17 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on December 13, 2011, 08:45:18 PMSounds to me like a case of:
"I'm not retreating, I am advancing in a different direction!"
I disagree (if you're implying that Egor is beating an ignominious retreat while proclaiming otherwise). Not only is discretion the better part of valor, but Egor's reason for letting this thread drop is reasonable: He has the answer that he was seeking (even if his understanding of that answer seems inadequate to me) and would like to proceed to a new topic.
I have to disagree with your disagreement, I think Ed was indeed choosing to advance in a different direction. He got answers to his question (at least the only one that made even a little bit of sense) on page 1 and didn't drop it until page 10 when requests for logical definitions and substantion of claims were beyond his ability to produce.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on December 13, 2011, 11:29:13 PM
As a Christian here on HAF, I'd like to say that up to this point I've been fairly and kindly treated and I don't anticipate it changing anytime soon.
Thanks AD
QuoteIt's possible that Egor is equating the "Absolute Moral" argument with 'Dignity'.
That's what I was thinking too but couldn't manage to connect the dots between the two concepts.
It very vaguely reminds me of the prostelization trick where the believer starts out by asking the nonbeliever if they have ever murdered, stolen, etc until they finally get to the one "deadly sin" everyone has to answer in the affirmative "lie" and then use that to twist a shaky proof about how all humans are sinners in need of salvation through christ.
Quote from: Whitney on December 14, 2011, 01:59:16 AM
It very vaguely reminds me of the prostelization trick where the believer starts out by asking the nonbeliever if they have ever murdered, stolen, etc until they finally get to the one "deadly sin" everyone has to answer in the affirmative "lie" and then use that to twist a shaky proof about how all humans are sinners in need of salvation through christ.
Sooooo, I guess if they admit to the murdering bit, they can skip right to needing Jesus?
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 14, 2011, 01:49:32 AMQuote from: Recusant on December 13, 2011, 08:52:17 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on December 13, 2011, 08:45:18 PMSounds to me like a case of:
"I'm not retreating, I am advancing in a different direction!"
I disagree (if you're implying that Egor is beating an ignominious retreat while proclaiming otherwise). Not only is discretion the better part of valor, but Egor's reason for letting this thread drop is reasonable: He has the answer that he was seeking (even if his understanding of that answer seems inadequate to me) and would like to proceed to a new topic.
I have to disagree with your disagreement, I think Ed was indeed choosing to advance in a different direction. He got answers to his question (at least the only one that made even a little bit of sense) on page 1 and didn't drop it until page 10 when requests for logical definitions and substantion of claims were beyond his ability to produce.
Heh, fair enough. 8)
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 14, 2011, 01:15:46 AM
I think we should start a drinking game - every time Egor complains that he's going to get banned, even though no one is threatening to ban him, we all take a shot.
I'm in! Can't drink on duty, but I'll catch up later. :D
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 14, 2011, 01:15:46 AM
I think we should start a drinking game - every time Egor complains that he's going to get banned, even though no one is threatening to ban him, we all take a shot.
What are you trying to do DJ? Kill us all from liver failure!
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 14, 2011, 01:15:46 AM
I think we should start a drinking game - every time Egor complains that he's going to get banned, even though no one is threatening to ban him, we all take a shot.
I like that....a lot.
I think I'll pass...someone has to be alcohol free and alert. ;)
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 14, 2011, 01:15:46 AM
I think we should start a drinking game - every time Egor complains that he's going to get banned, even though no one is threatening to ban him, we all take a shot.
Ye I like this, I don't understand those drinking games where the fool is rewarded, it's un, it's un, it's unsustainable.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 14, 2011, 02:01:07 AM
Quote from: Whitney on December 14, 2011, 01:59:16 AM
It very vaguely reminds me of the prostelization trick where the believer starts out by asking the nonbeliever if they have ever murdered, stolen, etc until they finally get to the one "deadly sin" everyone has to answer in the affirmative "lie" and then use that to twist a shaky proof about how all humans are sinners in need of salvation through christ.
Sooooo, I guess if they admit to the murdering bit, they can skip right to needing Jesus?
either that or run away quickly.
Quote from: Whitney on December 14, 2011, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 14, 2011, 02:01:07 AM
Quote from: Whitney on December 14, 2011, 01:59:16 AM
It very vaguely reminds me of the prostelization trick where the believer starts out by asking the nonbeliever if they have ever murdered, stolen, etc until they finally get to the one "deadly sin" everyone has to answer in the affirmative "lie" and then use that to twist a shaky proof about how all humans are sinners in need of salvation through christ.
Sooooo, I guess if they admit to the murdering bit, they can skip right to needing Jesus?
either that or run away quickly.
Not if they're part of a religious corporation apparently. Then it's god's law that's in place, and they're the authorities on what god's law is! Isn't that fantastic? ;D
Brilliant business, churches are.
Quote from: Whitney on December 14, 2011, 03:19:27 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 14, 2011, 02:01:07 AM
Quote from: Whitney on December 14, 2011, 01:59:16 AM
It very vaguely reminds me of the prostelization trick where the believer starts out by asking the nonbeliever if they have ever murdered, stolen, etc until they finally get to the one "deadly sin" everyone has to answer in the affirmative "lie" and then use that to twist a shaky proof about how all humans are sinners in need of salvation through christ.
Sooooo, I guess if they admit to the murdering bit, they can skip right to needing Jesus?
either that or run away quickly.
I got asked that once. Answered with "Ocasionally, it's been known to happen"... Got a fantastically long and boring lecture about salvation, hell and how the only true soldiers were those of the christ (Templars..? o.O )
I suppose she assumed I was in or ex military or some such, possibly a gangbanger, although those are uncommon here :P
Late to the party again.
I base my dignity on my Santa hat.
Quote from: McQ on December 14, 2011, 09:25:49 PM
Late to the party again.
I base my dignity on my Santa hat.
And very fetching it is to!
Quote from: McQ on December 14, 2011, 09:25:49 PM
Late to the party again.
I base my dignity on my Santa hat.
Damn that's cool, and sort of spooky at the same time, kind of like The Residents.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidclowery.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F09%2Fresidents.jpg%3Fw%3D450&hash=1af7069130ca20ee817db7d61f1897c3cf593dc5)
Dadaist dignity?
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM
Quote from: Tristan Jay on December 12, 2011, 10:16:40 AM
The fact that most people either praise him, ignore him, or are up to something else (other religions), rather than spending most of their days seething with anger at his cruelty is rather gracious and dignified of the bulk of humanity. ;)
I don't know what planet you're living on if you can really look at this world full of people and see a lot of dignity.
What a Wonderful World (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5TwT69i1lU&list=PL9D060720C1A053D9&index=1&feature=plpp_video)
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 15, 2011, 04:42:33 AM
Quote from: Egor on December 12, 2011, 10:23:30 PM
Quote from: Tristan Jay on December 12, 2011, 10:16:40 AM
The fact that most people either praise him, ignore him, or are up to something else (other religions), rather than spending most of their days seething with anger at his cruelty is rather gracious and dignified of the bulk of humanity. ;)
I don't know what planet you're living on if you can really look at this world full of people and see a lot of dignity.
What a Wonderful World (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5TwT69i1lU&list=PL9D060720C1A053D9&index=1&feature=plpp_video)
Everytime I hear that I immediately have to listen to this too:
The World Is Just Awesome (Boom De Ah Dah) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at_f98qOGY0) ;D
Quote from: history_geek on December 15, 2011, 06:36:52 AM
The World Is Just Awesome (Boom De Ah Dah) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at_f98qOGY0) ;D
I love the Discovery Channel (boom de ah dah).
Hello Egor, your question was very dull, uninformed, and revealed your ignorance. Why then do I respond? Why do you even these boring questions?
First of all I never believed so cannot start "believing again"
Your argument is that dignity comes from god; no god equals no dignity. Your argument is silly. Dignity does not come from god.
Just saying things does not make them true. I realize that my response attacks you personally, in that I called you silly etc.
Jose AR
Quote from: Jose AR on December 17, 2011, 10:22:37 PM
Hello Egor, your question was very dull, uninformed, and revealed your ignorance. Why then do I respond? Why do you even these boring questions?
First of all I never believed so cannot start "believing again"
Your argument is that dignity comes from god; no god equals no dignity. Your argument is silly. Dignity does not come from god.
Just saying things does not make them true. I realize that my response attacks you personally, in that I called you silly etc.
Jose AR
"You are silly" would be a mild personal attack
"Your argument is silly." Is not a personal attack as it refers to the argument not the person.