Re: What About Dignity?

[Whitney]

and just for fun...here is the definition again:

dig·ni·ty
 
 [dig-ni-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural -ties.
1.
bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation.

[history_geek]

All things are His. No one and no thing belongs to itself. We all belong to God body and soul.

Can I really be blamed that statements like this makes me thing of thei type of a "god" as a megalomannic yet akward teenager with severe ego problems...?
"I want it all! You can't have it! Blaaah "

Sorry, but that's the mental image I always get....

Or at least that's the point I'm trying to make.

I actaully see no point, only an assertion that is apparently based upon a certain kind of defenition for the word "dignity", as other already noted....

[MadBomr101]

I still don't know what egor thinks "dignity" means.

From what I can tell given my interactions with him in this thread, dignity is to Egor what snausages are to a dog - a treat given by the master for pleasing him.

[Tristan Jay]

The reason why I'm asking about your focus on Dignity, and my own concern about Christians plugging in any other word that is a characteristic of our human condition is that I'm worried about Christians de-humanizing Atheists/non-Christians.  On a Christian Forum, I encountered a xtian poster who believed that Love of a non-xtian was inferior compared to xtians.  I've considered introducing this as a separate thread.  Something for Christians to examine about themselves, something to keep an eye out for.  Very troubling.

Was your grandfather an atheist?

Without overreacting, I will reiterate what my Grandfather was: Dignified.  I miss him, and hope he is at peace.  He is no longer with us.  I mentioned him as an aspect of my personal life, humanity, vulnerablility.  Beyond that, it is not a point to be proved here in a dignified discourse, please.  Thank you.  Just wanting to draw a line, let's move on.

It is true: in order to be a follower of Christ, one has to be able to look in the mirror and say, "I'm not a good person. I can't make myself a good person. Only God's grace will keep me from the hell I deserve." Then one puts their faith in Christ, and then one is a new creature, transformed by God.

At which has more dignity, a person who wants to be formed into the perfection of Christ or a person who thinks they're perfect just as they are?

When it comes to self-esteem, I don't think Jesus would agree that we need it. I think he would find it a detriment to our spiritual health. He would rather we put our faith in the grace of God to save us.

That's why he said, anyone who will not give up their own life is not worthy to follow him. A person must take up their cross daily to follow him (the cross being a symbol of guilt and sin).

To grow spiritually, you have to realize you are not a good person. Self-esteem be damned.

I guess where I'm coming from, I'm seeing a need for what would look more like a healthier relationship between God and humanity.  Better knowledge of how to exercise our free will in helpful and less harmful way, a little bit more power/control over our ability to strongly exercise it in positive ways.  A bit more honesty and clarity in discourse, less confusion.  A good authority figure should empower people to be able to take care of themselves, and thusly, each other.  If I have difficulty taking care of myself, how can I be generous toward others?  Furthermore, God wanting us to rely on him can cripple a person's will to act responsibly for themselves in ways that must be done for the purpose of survival.  Self-esteem is in there somewhere, I just can't integrate it right now, sorry.

God is the creator and destroyer of all things. All things are His. No one and no thing belongs to itself. We all belong to God body and soul. And here's a tip: one day, everything will die. You, me, and every living thing dies. I know you want God to be all-indulgent, but that's only because you don't see yourself clearly. As Jesus would say, your light is darkness, and therefore how great is that darkness.

Can you clarify or define what you mean by all-indulgent?  I would like to be able to respond more fully to this.  As for God being greater, or claiming he is, well I personally find it more admirable when gods or "greater" humans (on any level) don't feel like they have to go out of their way to tell others, or make others submit to them in some way, and instead focus their energy on helping.  This planet seems symptomatic enough of a God who doesn't help enough,  or doesn't want to help more, while at the same time demanding that we rely on and trust him on pain of death and torture for an eternity in punishment for only a life time's worth of questionably defined transgression.  Not very sporting.  Or maybe it's a rather disappointing fiction?  God is capable of knowing and doing everything, we are told, so we can ask him.  Just...don't hold your breath while waiting for directness from this guy.

I don't know what planet you're living on if you can really look at this world full of people and see a lot of dignity.

:John Crichton Mode:
Fine.  For the 89th time:  Once upon a time, there was a god named God, and he lived in a void, and he is so mysterious, you can't imagine him!  One day, while God was out doing godly things, he decide to make this amazing life filled garden, and then he decided to make some nice new friends.    The only problem was, God was unhappy that his new friends also wanted to do different things that he didn't like, even though he made them that way!     ???  They could have lived happily ever after, except that God decide to rape, torture and confuse the hell out of us for thousands of years on end!  So here and now we are, still getting our asses shot off again and again, yet, miracle of miracles, there are so many people on this planet who want to make nice and be friends with him!  I think the human race deserves kudos for being so generous.
:/John Crichton Mode:

1.   Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2.   A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3.   Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4.   A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5.   Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6.   Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7.   If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.

This is good, because now you and everyone else here have something to work with.  Where atheists are not convinced is where you know that you can refine your proof/argument.  Approach it this way, and this could be very constructive.

[Asmodean]

All things are His. No one and no thing belongs to itself. We all belong to God body and soul.

Can I really be blamed that statements like this makes me thing of thei type of a "god" as a megalomannic yet akward teenager with severe ego problems...?
"I want it all! You can't have it! Blaaah "

Sorry, but that's the mental image I always get....

Also, The Asmo's cigarettes belong to The Asmo. God can't have them. 

[Gawen]

1.   Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
2.   A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
3.   Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
4.   A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
5.   Either this greater being exists and gives human beings dignity.
6.   Or this being does not exist and therefore dignity is a delusion.
7.   If atheism is true, there is no real dignity for human beings. QED.

The first premise hinges on the working definition of "real". Are you talking about percieved or "absolute" reality?
The second is fallacious since a person can indeed give himself a "High position and worth"
The third is not a logical derivative from the second. (Sorry, Tank, I REALLY couldn't come up with a better example) I can not give myself a blowjob. Does that mean that no other person can give me one?
The fourth is not a logical derivative from any of the above
The fifth is a half-statement and should be grouped with the sixth under the same number.
Number six is not a logical derivative from any of the above with regard to dignity being a delusion
Number seven is the sum-total of the other fallacies.

That was a great job of deconstructing faulty logic!!

[Asmodean]

That was a great job of deconstructing faulty logic!!

It was though, wasn't it? 

[Gawen]

That was a great job of deconstructing faulty logic!!

It was though, wasn't it?  

YUP.

I simply must add my two cents in this.

Premise #1:
Dignity is the real state of high position and worth.
What Egor has to do is define "dignity", "real", "state", "high position" and "worth".

Premise #2:
A human cannot give him or herself dignity.
Prove or show evidence that this is so.

Premise #3:
Because of #2 a person cannot give another person dignity.
Show how this logically comes from Premise #2.

Premise #4:
A greater being is required to give a human being real dignity.
Define a "greater being".
Show that this "greater being" exists.
Show how and why a "greater being" is required to give humans dignity.
Define "real dignity" as compared to human "delusional" dignity (as Egor suggested on the previous page.

[MadBomr101]

Wait, Egor's right.  I found it. 

DIGNITY

dig·ni·ty/dig-ni-tee
noun
1.
An unattainable state of one's self-worth granted only by the approval of the Christian God of the New Testament. 

2.
A feeling of elevated personal value or "higher being" as pertains to 1.

3.
Don't even think a wretched, sinful creature like yourself can be dignified without the Blessing of God.

4.
Suck it atheists.

Source: http://crackpotreligiousideas.reference.com/browse/dignity/seriously/no-seriously

I guess that settles that.   



*With thanks to Tank

[Asmodean]

The link. Why doesn't it work?!   Asmo needs that site up and running for his amusement tonight.

[MadBomr101]

The link. Wht doesn't it work?!  Asmo needs that site up and running for his amusement tonight.

[Asmodean]

The link. Wht doesn't it work?!  Asmo needs that site up and running for his amusement tonight.

How undignified of you! To SWINDLE The Asmo like that!  You know what The LORD thy God said about swindlers, right?  RIGHT?! 

Seriously though, wouldn't surprise me if something like that was actually posted on some "legitimate" site, with no crackpot in its name 

Weird, how no matter what crazy idea you propose, as long as it involves religion, there is (almost) always a... Well, a crackpot, who will swallow it whole. (Then twist it and probably open a church dedicated to it) Actually, it's not as much weird, due to the nature of religion, as it is distasteful.

[xSilverPhinx]

Damn, I also thought the link was legit

[Asmodean]

Damn, I also thought the link was legit

We are too gullible today. The Asmo, he just ate a lemon to remedy that. 

[xSilverPhinx]

Damn, I also thought the link was legit

We are too gullible today. The Asmo, he just ate a lemon to remedy that. 

True. A lemon, hey?   

I'll...only try that after you show me demonstrable results that it worked