Re: What About Dignity?

[Whitney]

"Dignity" today seems to relate to self-esteem or self-worth.  A person could get his/her self-esteem or sense of self-worth from parents, from teachers, from self, from philosophy, from personal achievements, from any number of sources.  It really boils down to how one feels about one's person.  For the theist, experience with God or scripture can be another source, but there are multiple sources for everyone.  Humans in general are at the pinnacle of the food chain, so whether you view yourself as being made in the image of God or as being the most advanced step in the process of evolution (or both), humans are still the "crown of creation" under either scenario, so there is a valid basis for having a positive image of self either way.

I think the above is good concise response to the question that anyone should be able to understand.

Egor, did you see the above?  If so, how do you respond?  Keep in mind that one of your fellow Christians wrote it so it's not an evil atheist point of view 

[Too Few Lions]

Well, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they? 

Oh please! His (Or her... Don't remember who authored the quote) way of spelling it is an attempt at mild mockery of your precious lord and master. Don't read more into words than what is there - that's how people fall into all this religious nonsense to begin with.

I think maybe Egor finds the term Xian blasphemous, like the word xmas, so perhaps made that ridiculous 'weak atheist' comment to try and deter further 'blasphemy'. I don't think that the words Xian or xmas should really be considered blasphemous though, given that they're very similar to an abbreviation that was used by the earliest Christians. The writers of the early Greek NT manuscripts often shortened the word 'Christos' to just 'XS'.

[Sandra Craft]

I think maybe Egor finds the term Xian blasphemous, like the word xmas, so perhaps made that ridiculous 'weak atheist' comment to try and deter further 'blasphemy'. I don't think that the words Xian or xmas should really be considered blasphemous though, given that they're very similar to an abbreviation that was used by the earliest Christians. The writers of the early Greek NT manuscripts often shortened the word 'Christos' to just 'XS'.

That's my understanding as well.  Besides the admittedly petty pleasure of knowing the "X" offends fundies, I find the shape of "Xtian" very elegant.

[The Magic Pudding]

That's my understanding as well.  Besides the admittedly petty pleasure of knowing the "X" offends fundies, I find the shape of "Xtian" very elegant.

Could you drop the X and just have "tian," you may have to choose the right sans font though and it would have to be lower case.

[MadBomr101]

What you're saying is that you can only feel good about yourself by convincing yourself that you have found favor in the eyes of, well, let's just state it as it is, an invisible magical man who lives in the sky.

No, let's not state it as you'd have it. I never said, nor do I believe, that God is a man, that he is magical or that he lives in the sky. That's your strawman, not mine. And if that's how you justify your atheism, then your atheism is ridiculous.

Really?  A pronouncement of ridiculous from a guy who worships an invisible magical being who lives in the sky?  See, I changed that just for you...although I don't see much of a difference.  That your god is presented as an unseen entity who creates universes and life from nothing and receives souls that float heavenward (up) is pretty much standard Xian boilerplate. (like I said we'd see from you) So at least have the backbone to own the preposterous details of your own faith.

So, let's review:

- Atheists find dignity based on what kind of person they are and what sort of talents and accomplishments define them as individuals.

So, they award themselves dignity? They judge themselves and pin on their own medals?

Of course, Ed.  Why wouldn't a thinking man or woman be capable of judging for themselves whether or not they're the kind of person they aspire to be?  Who else is there?  It's not like there are mystical deities around us taking note of who we are and what we do and validating our own sense of self-worth for us.  Because that would be laughable.

Not only that, but there's this as well.

You could have dignity from yourself, but that would be a kind of delusional dignity. You could have dignity from what others think about you, but that is capricious and can be taken away by those same people. Or you can have dignity from the judgment of a being who is greater than yourself, but that could only be God.

Relying on your personal sense of self-worth to be granted to you by someone very lofty, let's say, the CEO of Facebook, would still be relying on the validation of another which, as you yourself pointed out above, is unacceptable.  So if the approval of Mark Zuckerberg, or Bill Gates, or Bob Iger, or the ghost of Abraham Lincoln isn't sufficient, why is your own rule waived for god?  Is it because he's magic?  

- Xians find dignity through blind worship and obedience to a mythic figure...sort of like the Greeks worshipping Zeus, or the Vikings worshipping Odin, or the Egyptians worshipping Ra, or the ...

You get the idea.

No, not at all. Christians are dignified by their status in the kingdom of God. Because we have confessed our sins and been forgiven and try to emulate the person of Jesus Christ whom we put our faith in, we become, quite literally a more advanced being. God places us on a pedestal as it were. We become Son's and Daughters of God.

Standard Xian Reply #137 but with a notably heightened level of arrogance.  Thank you.  I found this reply comical.    

But even if god were real don't you think you could still find something more prosaic to feel good about than just being yet another sycophantic pet to an all-powerful lord and master?  You're not just proud of it, you're arrogant about it.  Why is that?

If God is real, and He allows me to by his sycophantic pet, then I'm lucky and honored, because the sycophantic pet of God is a higher being than one who can't see God at all. Thus, "dignity." In other words, if God is real, you're not even a sycophantic pet of his. And that's a pretty low place to be. Isn't it?

No, Ed, it isn't.  Being a sycophantic pet is.  What makes it sadder is that your claiming superiority and a swelling sense of pride at being the sycophantic pet of a fairytale.  I can see that your delusion runs deep to consider a rationalization this lopsided to be an argument worth putting forth.

Do you praise him louder and longer than other Xians?  Why do you feel he's impressed with you?  What about you compelled god to pause in his busy schedule of...whatever it is he does, to say to himself "Hmm, that Ed Gordon, he's a good bit of a-ok!"

I sought him. Like other true Christians, I was created by him and then with my free will and desire, I went looking for him. He turned on a lighthouse (sent Jesus Christ) and I changed my course to move toward it. That's it.

So did every other Xian.  I asked what it was about YOU that set you apart to find such vast favor and prominence in god's eyes.  

What you're telling me is that you did nothing that was any more notable than anyone else.  You drank the Xian kool-aid and so god showers you with his personal approval and you are instantly elevated to a status of "higher being" without having to exert any additional effort to prove your distinctive or individual value.  I can see why you embrace this delusion, it really doesn't demand much out of you to achieve this level of "higher being."  Just believe it and it's so.

If only reality were that simple.

Personally, I'm more impressed with your commitment to writing and love of dogs than in all of the Xian boilerplate I'm certain we're going to hear from you.

Well, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they?  

I also don't feel threatened by your religious hallucinations nor by your armchair psychoanalysis.  But that can be fun so let me give it a go: you've built a Xian cocoon around you that enables you to pronounce yourself superior to strangers you meet on the internet without ever having actually done anything to justify it in any meaningfully demonstrable way.  It allows you to live each day with a wholly unearned sense of arrogance in your "accomplishment" as one of god's special little lambs.

TFL and Davin pretty much nailed your style from the start.  

[xSilverPhinx]

Well, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they? 

Oh please! His (Or her... Don't remember who authored the quote) way of spelling it is an attempt at mild mockery of your precious lord and master. Don't read more into words than what is there - that's how people fall into all this religious nonsense to begin with.

I think maybe Egor finds the term Xian blasphemous, like the word xmas, so perhaps made that ridiculous 'weak atheist' comment to try and deter further 'blasphemy'. I don't think that the words Xian or xmas should really be considered blasphemous though, given that they're very similar to an abbreviation that was used by the earliest Christians. The writers of the early Greek NT manuscripts often shortened the word 'Christos' to just 'XS'.

^Perfect. I mean, just perfect!

[MadBomr101]

Well, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they?  

Oh please! His (Or her... Don't remember who authored the quote) way of spelling it is an attempt at mild mockery of your precious lord and master. Don't read more into words than what is there - that's how people fall into all this religious nonsense to begin with.

I think maybe Egor finds the term Xian blasphemous, like the word xmas, so perhaps made that ridiculous 'weak atheist' comment to try and deter further 'blasphemy'. I don't think that the words Xian or xmas should really be considered blasphemous though, given that they're very similar to an abbreviation that was used by the earliest Christians. The writers of the early Greek NT manuscripts often shortened the word 'Christos' to just 'XS'.

^Perfect. I mean, just perfect!

It was me.

For the record, while there is a historical precedent for the use of the X, and I believe it's Roman but don't quote me, I use it due to simple habit and laziness.  Long ago, I determined it was just much easier than spelling out Christian and Christianity over and over and over again.

[xSilverPhinx]

Well, of course you are. You don't feel threatened by that. And I know you do feel threatened because you can't even spell out "Christ" you have to use an X. You do realize when we see that, we know you're a weak atheist. A true atheist would have no more problem spelling out Christ than say, Zeus, Odin or Ra, would they? 

Oh please! His (Or her... Don't remember who authored the quote) way of spelling it is an attempt at mild mockery of your precious lord and master. Don't read more into words than what is there - that's how people fall into all this religious nonsense to begin with.

I think maybe Egor finds the term Xian blasphemous, like the word xmas, so perhaps made that ridiculous 'weak atheist' comment to try and deter further 'blasphemy'. I don't think that the words Xian or xmas should really be considered blasphemous though, given that they're very similar to an abbreviation that was used by the earliest Christians. The writers of the early Greek NT manuscripts often shortened the word 'Christos' to just 'XS'.

^Perfect. I mean, just perfect!

It was me.

For the record, while there is a historical precedent for the use of the X, and I believe it's Roman but don't quote me, I use it due to simple habit and laziness.  Long ago, I determined it was just much easier than spelling out Christian and Christianity over and over and over again.

First time you've had to justify yourself? I'm guessing no, but...

I just find it humorous that someone such as Egor will, even though he's ignorant, say that something is 'blasphemous'. If we were living in a few centuries back, that would be a serious offence, and all because he got a bit offended (over what really, I have no idea.) You use the word too lightly Ed, given your beliefs...don't make me go into armchair analyst mode over that.

Is it really blasphemous, Ed, or are you playing god and projecting what offends you as blasphemous?

[MadBomr101]

First time you've had to justify yourself? I'm guessing no, but...

You got that right, Silver.  Xians have taken me to task repeatedly over the years just as Ed tried to do by assigning some dire reason why I must hide behind the X rather than face the word of Christ in my own blasphemous texts.  I think they think it burns my eyes or something.  Their arguments were just as lame and just as easily dismissed.

[Sandra Craft]

That's my understanding as well.  Besides the admittedly petty pleasure of knowing the "X" offends fundies, I find the shape of "Xtian" very elegant.

Could you drop the X and just have "tian," you may have to choose the right sans font though and it would have to be lower case.

You mean like 'tian?  I suppose, but to my mind it's the capital X that creates the elegant effect, esp. if it's written in calligraphy rather than typed.

[Egor]

Is it really blasphemous, Ed, or are you playing god and projecting what offends you as blasphemous?

It doesn't offend me in the slightest. But I find it curious that many atheists have a hard time spelling out the word "Christ" but have no problem spelling out the names of other religious figures.

But it's a moot point. There really are bigger fish to fry.

[Egor]

"Dignity" today seems to relate to self-esteem or self-worth.  A person could get his/her self-esteem or sense of self-worth from parents, from teachers, from self, from philosophy, from personal achievements, from any number of sources.  It really boils down to how one feels about one's person.  For the theist, experience with God or scripture can be another source, but there are multiple sources for everyone.  Humans in general are at the pinnacle of the food chain, so whether you view yourself as being made in the image of God or as being the most advanced step in the process of evolution (or both), humans are still the "crown of creation" under either scenario, so there is a valid basis for having a positive image of self either way.

I think the above is good concise response to the question that anyone should be able to understand.

Egor, did you see the above?  If so, how do you respond?  Keep in mind that one of your fellow Christians wrote it so it's not an evil atheist point of view 

I meant dignity within the human race. I try not to act undignified in front of my dog, but I really want my dignity in and amongst other people. And I agree that everyone feels dignified for different reasons, perhaps. But, and I will ask this again, how is there dignity without a superior being giving one dignity?

Many in here have stated that they give themselves dignity by reflecting on their accomplishments. I would argue that's not real dignity, that's only a delusion of dignity.

Some say that friends give them their dignity, but I would argue that if a person derives dignity from the opinions of their friends then they don't really have dignity.

We only seem to have true dignity when someone greater than we are sets us above and apart from others. For instance, if there is a God and he favors us, then we really do have dignity. We have a reason to feel worthy, because God has said we are. And if God has said it, no one can ever take it away.

If there is no God, there is no basis for dignity, only the delusion of dignity.

[Sandra Craft]

It doesn't offend me in the slightest. But I find it curious that many atheists have a hard time spelling out the word "Christ" but have no problem spelling out the names of other religious figures.

No other god's name, that I know of at least, has such an easy and well-known abbreviation with such a long-standing history within its own religion.

I meant dignity within the human race. I try not to act undignified in front of my dog, but I really want my dignity in and amongst other people. And I agree that everyone feels dignified for different reasons, perhaps. But, and I will ask this again, how is there dignity without a superior being giving one dignity?

Some say that friends give them their dignity, but I would argue that if a person derives dignity from the opinions of their friends then they don't really have dignity.

The bolded lines are in contradiction with each other.  I'm sure you have an explanation.

[Egor]

I meant dignity within the human race. I try not to act undignified in front of my dog, but I really want my dignity in and amongst other people. And I agree that everyone feels dignified for different reasons, perhaps. But, and I will ask this again, how is there dignity without a superior being giving one dignity?

Some say that friends give them their dignity, but I would argue that if a person derives dignity from the opinions of their friends then they don't really have dignity.

The bolded lines are in contradiction with each other.  I'm sure you have an explanation.

I don't see how they contradict. I want to have my dignity recognized by other people, but other people don't give me dignity. They can't.

And I'm not trying to say that I have dignity and you don't. I think atheists do have dignity, and that's my point: Atheism is untrue.

EDIT: Fixed quotes - Tank

[history_geek]

Now, before anyone pulls their tale into a knot because of "Xtian", you'll find the reason for its use in this vid, around 2:30 onwards:

To XMAS And Beyond!

But it all basicly boils down to the fact that in greek, the original language of the Gospels and New Testament in general, "X" is the first letter of the word "Christ". So not only is it accurate to use it, its also rather convienant in internet conversations and with "Xmas" 

And why do I feel that "Atheism is untrue" is copied from a rather obnoxius self-proclaimed ex-atheist current YouTube laughing stock calling himself "ShockofGod".... 

I think there might be a topic on this already, but just to be sure....

If I've understood correctly, inorder for something to be true or untrue, a claim must be made, no? For example Christianity claims that Jesus is god (or that his part of a trinity god or that he is the same as YHWH....take your pick). However, atheism makes no such claim. It is simply not believing the made claim of someones or something divinity. Now, an athesit, such as myself, can make a claim that the deity in question does not exist, which makes me a Gnostic Atheist. I claim knowledge on the existance of this deity called being and do not believe in that or any other deity. One can claim tha by a long shot Gnostic Atheist are wrong, but it does not mean that Atheism is somehow untrue or disproven because of this, because it's position of being unbelief does not change. There are also Agnostic Athesits who do not make the claim on knowldge, but do not belive in deities. Does this prove atheism correct? Of course not, since it again does not change what athesim is. Not believing. However, it also works for theism, in the way that belief or calimed knowldege do not make them "correct and accurate", to quote the afore mentioned clown.

The reason I took the time to adress this is because I'm sick and tired of this paticular mispresentation, and encountering it with almost every theist that I come across nowdays. I suppose I needed to get that off my system, so I apologize for the small rant on the obvious (or what should be obvious)