hello

[jefferywinkler]

I also heard about this website when Elanor Cliff mentioned it on The McLaughlin Group. I encourage everyone to visit my website.

(Link removed: see response below. -- Recusant)

Of course, what you people know full well, but don't want to admit, is that everyone is an atheist, if by "atheist", you mean someone who knows that God is fiction. The words "magic", "supernatural", "metaphysical", "paranormal", "spiritual", "miracle", etc., and are simply synonyms for "impossible". If something was possible, it wouldn't be magic. The word "impossible", and thus all of the synonyms I listed, is defined as "can only exist within fiction". If you admit something is magic, you are admitting it's impossible, so you are admitting it's fiction. The Christians say their god is supernatural being, so they are saying it's impossible, so they are saying it's fiction. The word "god" intrinsically refers to a supernatural being. If something wasn't a supernatural being, you wouldn't call it a "god". Just by using the word "god", you are admitting you are talking about a supernatural being, and thus the impossible, and thus fiction. Therefore, anyone who uses the word "god" is simultaneously admitting there is no god. Therefore everyone is an atheist.

Someone could read "A Tale of Two Cities" or "War and Peace" and mistake it for non-fiction. The reason is because they don't contain magic, which means they don't contain anything impossible. It would not be possible for someone to read "A Christmas Carol" or "The Lord of the Rings" and mistake it for non-fiction. The reason is because they contain they contain magic, meaning the impossible, and must therefore be fiction. Therefore, it would not be possible for someone to read the Bible and mistake it for non-fiction.

Let's say a devout Christian went to a magic show in Las Vegas, and watched a magician on stage perform a trick, and they had no idea how they performed it. They are trying to guess how the magician may have performed the trick. They do not consider, not even for a fraction of a second, that the magician might actually have magic powers, since they know, of course, that that would be impossible.

Magic, supernatural, etc. is a synonym for "impossible". The most magic thing anyone ever made up is the Judeo-Christian God, which is supposed to be an omnipotent being with infinite magic powers, that single-handedly deliberately made the entire infinite universe using only its infinite magic powers. That's the most magic thing, in other words, the most impossible thing, that anyone ever made up. That's what the Christians themselves say it is, so they say it's impossible, so they say it's fiction.

So everyone is an atheist, but the problem is there is a community of outspoken atheists, like Christopher Hitchens, who enjoy falsely accusing religious people of actually thinking their works of fiction are true, to try to make them seem stupid. That appears to be the purpose of this website.

[OldGit]

Strange.

[Ali]

Huh.  I've never heard the "Sure, they KNOW it's fiction, but it's mean and offputting for you to point it out" defense before. 

[xSilverPhinx]

Wha? ???

Firstly, if someones says that they believe in their religious idols, father figures, role-models or whatever, I'll take their word for it. They should know what they believe in. It's a bit odd that you would seem so certain to know that they actually believe in something that they also believe is impossible.

Secondly, the whole magic thing has way more to do with ignorance than impossible. ever hear of the Arthur Clack quote that goes something like: to the ignorant, advanced technology and magic are indistinguishable. If you were to somehow build a time machine and fly a plane in a heavily populated area 2000 years ago, I have no doubt that they would think it was magic, and possible build a religion around it. Happened just recently for a more primitive group of people living somewhere in the Indie islands.  

But anyways your premise is based on semantics rather than what actually makes believers tick and what they think, so you haven't gotten very far there...

[Recusant]

Hello and welcome to HAF, jefferywinkler. Thank you for that interesting introduction. It seems to me that you didn't bother to read the Forum Rules, specifically the section titled "NO SPAM," in which it is clearly stated that posting a link in your first post is considered spamming the site. Thus, your link has been removed. If you choose to remain and contribute to discussions here, you are welcome to post a link to your site in a later post, and/or to include it in your personal information.

. . .

So everyone is an atheist, but the problem is there is a community of outspoken atheists, like Christopher Hitchens, who enjoy falsely accusing religious people of actually thinking their works of fiction are true, to try to make them seem stupid. That appears to be the purpose of this website.

No, not everyone is an atheist. This is a discussion which does not belong in the "Getting to Know You" section, however.

The purpose of this website is not to make religious people seem stupid; it's here to provide a place where people can discuss various topics (including, but not limited to atheism and religion) in a civil manner.

Notes for new members from Tank:

The Rules.

Users who comply with forum rules will graduate to full membership after 10 posts. Till that time your ability to post is limited to the "Getting to Know You" section of the forum. It is our hope that this small restriction improves the overall atmosphere of HAF.

Some threads you might find interesting.
Where did you get your username from?
10 Things About Yourself
Tell us A Bit About Where You're From
Photography
Non-religious pet peeves
Pets...what do you have?
How to tell your family you are an atheist.*
"Rules for Conducting a Discussion" by Dr. Mortimer J. Adler*

*You will need 10 posts before you can add a post to this thread, but you can read it at any time.

I hope you enjoy your time reading and posting here!

[The Magic Pudding]

Ye what Sphinx said.

When people douse themselves in petrol and light a match, I think they do it from belief, not as knowing role play.  Maybe they have doubts and that drives them to be more extreme.  I don't think you can explain the extremity of their behaviour without acknowledging their belief. 

Anyway an intro thread isn't the place to discuss this.

[Too Few Lions]

yeah, clearly most religious Christians believe at least some of their Bible is true, most believe their god Yahweh exists, and some of the more fundamentalist ones believe everything in it is true. Even the most ridiculous things like Lot's wife being turned into a pillar of salt.

Of course, just because someone believes such things to be true doesn't actually make it so in reality. Welcome to the forum JW, but as Magic Pud just said, intros aren't the place for this kind of discussion. Get to ten posts telling us a little about you, then start a thread in the religion or philosophy section.

[Tank]

Moved from introductions as it's not and introduction but a rant.

[Gawen]

That was a hell of a bit of logic, I must say.

Think he'll be back?

At any rate, I was curious...

I could not find a synonym for "synonym" other than "equivalent" and "metonym".

The synonyms for "impossible" are hopeless, impracticable, infeasible, unfeasible, unworkableout(predicate)unachievable, unattainable, undoable, unrealizable....not magic or supernatural.

The synonyms for magic are charming, magical, sorcerous, witching (prenominal), wizard (prenominal), wizardly.

The opposite of supernatural is natural.

So when Jeffrey learns the proper definitions of words and stops inventing definitions for words that otherwise have their own definitions, perhaps he will make a more coherent argument.

[Guardian85]

Wha? ???

Firstly, if someones says that they believe in their religious idols, father figures, role-models or whatever, I'll take their word for it. They should know what they believe in. It's a bit odd that you would seem so certain to know that they actually believe in something that they also believe is impossible.

Secondly, the whole magic thing has way more to do with ignorance than impossible. ever hear of the Arthur Clack quote that goes something like: to the ignorant, advanced technology and magic are indistinguishable. If you were to somehow build a time machine and fly a plane in a heavily populated area 2000 years ago, I have no doubt that they would think it was magic, and possible build a religion around it. Happened just recently for a more primitive group of people living somewhere in the Indie islands.  

But anyways your premise is based on semantics rather than what actually makes believers tick and what they think, so you haven't gotten very far there...

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

-Arthur C. Clarke

[Stevil]

The opposite of supernatural is natural.

I thought the opposite of natural was unnatural not supernatural.

Supernatural shouldn't be magical things. It should be awsome accurances of nature, e.g.
Niagra falls

Or the grand canyon

or Milford Sounds

[Gawen]

The opposite of supernatural is natural.

I thought the opposite of natural was unnatural not supernatural.

I would say both, wouldn't you?

[Sweetdeath]

The opposite of supernatural is natural.

I thought the opposite of natural was unnatural not supernatural.

I would say both, wouldn't you?

Doesnt "natural" mean it exists in nature?
I dunno. Another shakey term like "traditional" and "normal." IMO

[Anti-antidisestablishmentarianism]

Wha? ???


Secondly, the whole magic thing has way more to do with ignorance than impossible. ever hear of the Arthur Clack quote that goes something like: to the ignorant, advanced technology and magic are indistinguishable. If you were to somehow build a time machine and fly a plane in a heavily populated area 2000 years ago, I have no doubt that they would think it was magic, and possible build a religion around it. Happened just recently for a more primitive group of people living somewhere in the Indie islands.  

Hah that is basically the history channels entire programmin lineup right not.  Link old religious stories to time travelers, people in the center of the Earth with advanced technology, or Extraterrestrials. Your quote reminds me of an old saying from honeymooners.  Pow right in the kisser.

[jefferywinkler]

I'm posting here because I can't respond to my own post. There doesn't seem to be a reply button. Furthermore, the "Religion" section doesn't have a "New Topic" button.

First of all, I did not post spam. I posted a link to my own homepage. Spam is when a con artist sends you unsolicited email because they are trying to swindle you out of their money.

Second of all, Religious people do NOT say there is god is real!!!! Religious people say God is Fiction!!! Let's say a religion person makes the following statement.

"I believe in God".

That single four word sentence contains two separate statements by the speaker that there is no such thing as God. Let's take these in turn.

"believe in"

Just by using the phrase "believe in", they are admitting they are talking about magic. In the English language, the phrase "believe in" intrinsically refers to magic. No one would use the word "believe in" unless they were talking about magic. No one would say they "believe in" Newtonian mechanics, electromagnetism, special relativity, general relativity, quantum mechanics, quantum field theory, QED, QCD, the Higgs mechanism, the Standard Model, grand unification, supersymmetry, string theory, or M-theory. On the other hand, someone might say they believe in psychics, astrology, ghosts, ESP, UFOs, the Bermuda Triangle, Atlantis, crop circles, crystal skulls, witchcraft, unicorns, faeries, vampires, or Santa Claus. The phrase "believe in" means you are talking about magic. Therefore, when a Christian uses the phrase "believe in", they are admitting they are talking about magic, so they are admitting they are talking about fiction.

"God"

The word "god" intrinsically refers to a supernatural being. Just by using the word "god", you are admitting that you are referring to a supernatural being. Let's say you went to a book store, and you browsed through the fantasy section. You picked up a novel set in a Dungeons and Dragons world. You flipped through it, and saw the name "The Great God Zandar, the High God of the Frost Giants". Is there any doubt in your mind that the author intended for that character to be a supernatural being? If the author did not intend for the character to be a supernatural being, he would not have called it a"god". The word "god" intrinsically refers to a supernatural being. Therefore, when a Christian uses the word "god", they are admitting they are referring to a supernatural being, so they are admitting they are talking about fiction.

Therefore, if you hear a religious person use the phrase "I believe in God", that single four word sentence contains two separate admissions by the speaker that there is no such thing as God. In addition to that, the Judeo-Christian God is supposed to be not only magic, that's an understatement, they say it's omnipotent. They say it has infinite magic powers. That's the most magic thing anyone ever made up, in other words, the most impossible thing anyone ever made up. That's what the Christians themselves say.

Everyone who posted a response to my original post admitted that what I said was true. One person said they take religious people at their word. Well, since all religious people say there is no such thing as god, since they admit it's a supernatural being, the poster therefore takes them at their word when they say there is no such thing as god. Another poster used the word "belief" which he was using to mean "belief in the supernatural", so he was also admitting that this is fiction, and the religious people themselves say it's fiction. Then another person misunderstood the quote by Arthur C. Clarke. When he said that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, he meant that you might mistake advanced technology for magic, but of course, the advanced technology is not magic. Magic is a synonym for "impossible", and that has nothing to do with technology. Something could be far beyond current technology but still possible and therefore not magic. However, some things are actually impossible, regardless of technology, such as traveling faster than light, and that's magic. If something is beyond our current technology, but could be done with more advanced technology, that's not magic. Someone could mistake something that's not magic for magic, but actual magic can only exist inside fiction. Christians admit that their stories contain actual magic, so they admit it's fiction.

Now let's address whether it's possible for someone to mistake different types of fiction for non-fiction.

1. Non-fiction - In this case, it actually is non-fiction so you are not mistaking it for non-fiction but are recognizing that it is non-finction.

2. Fiction that does not contain magic - In this case, the work of fiction does not contain magic, meaning it doesn't contain anything impossible, meaning it COULD happen, even though it did not actually happen. In this case, it would be possible for someone to mistake it for non-fiction. Examples include "A Tale of Two Cities", "War and Peace", "Pride and Prejudice", Sherlock Holmes, or "Black Beauty".

3. Fiction that contains magic but does not admit that it contains magic - In this case, the work contains the impossible, meaning it could not actually happen, but it does not admit that it contains the impossible. Most people would not mistake for non-fiction, but an ignorant person might not realize the story actually contains magic, and thus could mistake it for non-fiction. If you knew the work of fiction contained magic, then it would not be possible for you to mistake it for non-fiction. If you did not realize that the work of fiction contained magic, then you could mistake it for non-fiction. In other words, an ignorant person could mistake it for non-fiction. Examples include "Frankenstein", Isaac Asimov, Star Trek, almost all of science fiction, as well as UFO belief.

4. Fiction that not contains magic and does admit that it contains magic - In this case, the work of fiction not only contains magic, but in addition also contains the self-admission that it contains magic. So the work of fiction not only contains the impossible but also contains the self-admission that it contains the impossible. Therefore, the work of fiction is actually saying that it is a work of fiction. Inside the work of fiction itself, it contains its own self-admission that it is a work of fiction. In this case, it would not be possible for any person, regardless of how ignorant, to mistake the work of fiction, including its own self-contained self-admission that it is a work of fiction, for a work of non-fiction. Examples include The Epic of Gilgamesh, Egyptian Mythology, Greek Mythology, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Norse Mythology, Beowulf, King Arthur, "A Midsummer's Night's Dream", Wagner's operas, "A Christmas Carol", "Lord of the Rings", Dungeons and Dragons, Star Wars, Frank Hurbert' s "Dune", Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time", Harry Potter and Santa Claus.

To make this clear, consider the following examples. In each case, I initially give a version that could be mistaken for non-fiction, and then a version that could not be.

1. BigFoot

A - Bigfoot, as described in North America, is described as a biological creature, an undiscovered species of ape.

B - The Asian Yeti, is described as having magic powers, it can teleport, turn invisible, or read people's minds.

2. The Ark of the Covenant

A - Someone suggested that it might have been a chemical battery, similar to the Baghdad battery, and gave people electric shocks.

B - It contains the wrath of God.

3. Atlantis

A - The island of Santorini in the Aegean was destroyed by a volcano.

B - The Gods destroyed the continent of Atlantis because humans were becoming two powerful.

Do you see that if you say it's magic, you are saying it's fiction. Magic or supernatural are synonyms for "impossible" which defined as something that can only exist in fiction. If you're saying it's fiction. Christians say it's magic, so Christians say it's fiction. The Christians don't just say God is magic. They say it's omnipotent, that it has infinite magic powers. That's the most magic thing anyone ever made up, in other words, the most impossible thing anyone ever made up. That's what the Christians themselves say. The religious people say there is no such thing as God. They say it's supernatural, so they say it's fiction. Believe the religious people when they say it's fiction.