Thou Shalt Not Test The Lord

[Guardian85]

Did arian think I was being disingenuous?  At the very least I had hope for a PM about the topics I was ranting about; for a moment I was wondering what arian's perspective was, I got the impression that there was acknowledgment that I had made some legitimate points/complaints about God, so I wondered what arian's perspective was (skeptically, yet still curious).  ???

I feel very disappointed.  That post seems very counterproductive.  I would ask: does this often happen with atheists, the argument circles around to an important point that you wonder, "Is anyone ever going to offer a compelling answer," only to see another person teasing with the possibility of compelling thoughts whip around, rage and storm about being oppressed, demonize you, and totally disregard the important point?  However, I've seen evidence that suggests a recurring pattern.

I noticed this with another poster on here who is too easy to spot out when they dance away from a key point in a discourse and cries out "Wolf!" instead.  Frustrating conversations to watch unfold.   

There are a couple of poster here for whom this is standard operating procedure. My theory is that they are, due to the community they have been indoctrinated (cough, cough)...sorry, raised in (very sheltered) they are not used to the thought of someone who REALLY holds a different opinion. When they do encounter someone who throws everything they hold sacred under the bus, they panic in their heads and "fight-or-flight" kicks in. Obviously if we don't believe the same thing as them and say that, we MUST be attacking them personally.

[Sandra Craft]

Thomas was given sufficient proof for him - it was a personal revelation of and from Jesus. If you sincerely want a personal revelation from Jesus, ask him for it, just like Thomas did.  Put the ball in his court. For purposes of consistency, I do not reject anyone's personal testimony of what happened to him/her, unless there are weighty factors that demand rejection. I find none of those in your case...

Dear, you miss one little detail with the thomas story

They_Saw_Thomas_Putting his hand IN.

The text just says that Jesus offered Thomas the chance to insert his finger/hand.  It doesn't actually say that he did it. Still, even with direct sensory perception, some faith was required that he was not hallucinating or dreaming.

Do you really think faith was required here, with a bunch of people all seeing the exact same thing?  That's not just a shorter chasm to be jumped, the faith required (if it is) is so vanishingly small as to be non-existant.  The story of Doubting Thomas seems nothing more than a rather clumsy "believe because you're told to" morality tale.

[Reprobate]

This has always bothered the hell out of me: the condition that you must have faith and can never expect God to show anything to you.

So the guy created every plant and animal on earth, and all its cells and each cell's atoms, and all the planets in our solar system and all the solar systems in our galaxy and all the galaxies in the universe and the universe itself...he's omnipotent and omnipresent, he actually exists in our thoughts and in everybody's thoughts at the same time...and yet he can't spare 2 minutes to pop in and say hi?


Seems pretty fishy to me.

Yeah, it's really screwed up on the surface, but when you think about it it's brilliant. This is a fundamental principle that has probably kept religion, all religions alive. Serious consideration and scrutiny of one's religions beliefs would obviously leave tremendous doubt and undermine that religion. The concept that one's faith in god cannot be questioned turns the tables on any doubt. Instead of questioning what religion teachers, doubts are transferred to the individual. One may begin thinking, 'how can this be?' and end up thinking, 'what's wrong with me?'

Most religious people have doubts at one time or another and for the majority who remain faithful, the simple, "Who am I to question god?" answer seems to be enough to satisfy them.

[arian (Banned)]

Did arian think I was being disingenuous?  At the very least I had hope for a PM about the topics I was ranting about; for a moment I was wondering what arian's perspective was, I got the impression that there was acknowledgment that I had made some legitimate points/complaints about God, so I wondered what arian's perspective was (skeptically, yet still curious).  ???

I feel very disappointed.  That post seems very counterproductive.  I would ask: does this often happen with atheists, the argument circles around to an important point that you wonder, "Is anyone ever going to offer a compelling answer," only to see another person teasing with the possibility of compelling thoughts whip around, rage and storm about being oppressed, demonize you, and totally disregard the important point?  However, I've seen evidence that suggests a recurring pattern.

I noticed this with another poster on here who is too easy to spot out when they dance away from a key point in a discourse and cries out "Wolf!" instead.  Frustrating conversations to watch unfold.   

There are a couple of poster here for whom this is standard operating procedure. My theory is that they are, due to the community they have been indoctrinated (cough, cough)...sorry, raised in (very sheltered) they are not used to the thought of someone who REALLY holds a different opinion. When they do encounter someone who throws everything they hold sacred under the bus, they panic in their heads and "fight-or-flight" kicks in. Obviously if we don't believe the same thing as them and say that, we MUST be attacking them personally.

I don't 'flight' my friend, I was kicked off because of fear of what I have to say. I have never been on a forum that is as big of a cowards as I have seen here. "Look, he runs from the debate!" (now quickly, let's lock him out so we can gloat, and then we'll pat each other on the back, ... he, he, he..)

INDOCTRINATE
cause to believe something: to teach somebody a belief, doctrine, or ideology thoroughly and systematically, especially with the goal of discouraging independent thought or the acceptance of other opinions
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

If that doesn't fit the moderators on this forum, then I don't know what does?
Go ahead and kick me off again, or do you wan't me to quote a verse from the Bible first?

John 1:10-12
10 The Word was in the world, and though God made the world through him, yet the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to his own country, but his own people did not receive him.
TEV

[Davin]

Nope, it's not that what you have to say is scary, it's because what you say doesn't make any sense.

[Dobermonster]

Did arian think I was being disingenuous?  At the very least I had hope for a PM about the topics I was ranting about; for a moment I was wondering what arian's perspective was, I got the impression that there was acknowledgment that I had made some legitimate points/complaints about God, so I wondered what arian's perspective was (skeptically, yet still curious).  ???

I feel very disappointed.  That post seems very counterproductive.  I would ask: does this often happen with atheists, the argument circles around to an important point that you wonder, "Is anyone ever going to offer a compelling answer," only to see another person teasing with the possibility of compelling thoughts whip around, rage and storm about being oppressed, demonize you, and totally disregard the important point?  However, I've seen evidence that suggests a recurring pattern.

I noticed this with another poster on here who is too easy to spot out when they dance away from a key point in a discourse and cries out "Wolf!" instead.  Frustrating conversations to watch unfold.   

There are a couple of poster here for whom this is standard operating procedure. My theory is that they are, due to the community they have been indoctrinated (cough, cough)...sorry, raised in (very sheltered) they are not used to the thought of someone who REALLY holds a different opinion. When they do encounter someone who throws everything they hold sacred under the bus, they panic in their heads and "fight-or-flight" kicks in. Obviously if we don't believe the same thing as them and say that, we MUST be attacking them personally.

I don't 'flight' my friend, I was kicked off because of fear of what I have to say. I have never been on a forum that is as big of a cowards as I have seen here. "Look, he runs from the debate!" (now quickly, let's lock him out so we can gloat, and then we'll pat each other on the back, ... he, he, he..)

INDOCTRINATE
cause to believe something: to teach somebody a belief, doctrine, or ideology thoroughly and systematically, especially with the goal of discouraging independent thought or the acceptance of other opinions
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

If that doesn't fit the moderators on this forum, then I don't know what does?
Go ahead and kick me off again, or do you wan't me to quote a verse from the Bible first?

John 1:10-12
10 The Word was in the world, and though God made the world through him, yet the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to his own country, but his own people did not receive him.
TEV

Oh, lordy.

I just read through this whole thing. You claim the folks here aren't open-minded, so I'll try to avoid that by offering you two versions of this post, and you can choose whatever makes you feel better.

Version 1.0:

Arian, before you were suspended you said that you were leaving the forum anyway. But that was just a mistake, right? You weren't actually 'fleeing' the debate. You were leaving because the people here are afraid of what you have to say, right? Actually, you flee the debate every time you start preaching instead of rationally discussing. Oh, and complaining about being "made fun of" is possibly the most irritating version of playing the victim card to date. Whining will not get you pity, much less sympathy. Word to the (un)wise.

Version 2.0:

Wow, great points arian!

[Guardian85]

Nope, it's not that what you have to say is scary, it's because what you say doesn't make any sense.

A point well made. And might I add, Arian, that your continued chest thumping and victim playing is very offputting, and a detriment to the continuation of debate.

[Too Few Lions]

Nope, it's not that what you have to say is scary, it's because what you say doesn't make any sense.

I couldn't agree more. And as Arian likes quoting the Bible so much, Proverbs 26.11 sprung to my mind...

[Ali]

Oh wow, are we back to this again?  That's good, I was just thinking about the marked lack of crazy on the internets lately. 

[AnimatedDirt]

Nope, it's not that what you have to say is scary, it's because what you say doesn't make any sense.

I would simply say, being on the same side of belief and out of bias I suppose, that not everything that is brought forth as truth is always seen as such initially...nor may it ever.  It may be that *you think this all without sense even if this God were to present Himself to *you.  Lots of things make no sense.  However HAF seems to think that it makes sense to have a "Religion" section where these nonsense things are discussed...or is it in place simply for the amusement of those that need nonsense amusement? 

A point well made. And might I add, Arian, that your continued chest thumping and victim playing is very offputting, and a detriment to the continuation of debate.

What you see as chest-thumping is simply a person that is confident in his/her position.  I can certainly agree that this be minimized (on both sides) The victim playing however is quite par for this course.  It may be offputting, but it's not without substance.

I actually look forward to Arian's attempt to answer the Atheist positions.  I can't imagine he/she understands the amount of work it would be considering with it comes the hoards of individuals waiting to add their input and queries for proof of this and that before this or that...when all that cannot be processed by one individual in a timely manner, as was said, the chants of victory start.  No one seems to think that at times the 'task' can be overwhelming.  C'est la vie. 

[En_Route]

Oh wow, are we back to this again?  That's good, I was just thinking about the marked lack of crazy on the internets lately. 

Apparently it's down to 99%.

[Davin]

Nope, it's not that what you have to say is scary, it's because what you say doesn't make any sense.

I would simply say, being on the same side of belief and out of bias I suppose, that not everything that is brought forth as truth is always seen as such initially...nor may it ever.  It may be that *you think this all without sense even if this God were to present Himself to *you.  Lots of things make no sense.  However HAF seems to think that it makes sense to have a "Religion" section where these nonsense things are discussed...or is it in place simply for the amusement of those that need nonsense amusement?

So you see nothing wrong that arian claims to be an "atheist" that beleives in god? That makes sense to you? And if religion is nonsense to you, why do you try to defend it?

A point well made. And might I add, Arian, that your continued chest thumping and victim playing is very offputting, and a detriment to the continuation of debate.

What you see as chest-thumping is simply a person that is confident in his/her position.  I can certainly agree that this be minimized (on both sides) The victim playing however is quite par for this course.  It may be offputting, but it's not without substance.

I actually look forward to Arian's attempt to answer the Atheist positions.  I can't imagine he/she understands the amount of work it would be considering with it comes the hoards of individuals waiting to add their input and queries for proof of this and that before this or that...when all that cannot be processed by one individual in a timely manner, as was said, the chants of victory start.  No one seems to think that at times the 'task' can be overwhelming.  C'est la vie.

You messed up the citations, but I'd like to see all the chants of victory (I mean other than Egor), from anyone on this site. The problem with arian has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with arian attempting to argue by changing the meanings of words to something completely different than what the words mean. So that is why arian doesn't make sense, not because of the concepts being presented, but because arian, by all useful intents and purposes, is speaking a different unknown language that only arian seems to know.

[AnimatedDirt]

So you see nothing wrong that arian claims to be an "atheist" that beleives in god? That makes sense to you? And if religion is nonsense to you, why do you try to defend it?

What I meant is that the majority of HAF probably thinks religion, probably more specific, Christianity, is nonsense yet not enough nonsense that it won't be discussed here.  I don't recall Arian stating he's an Atheist that believes in God or god.  If he did, then I haven't read it or I didn't put much weight on the claim.  My simply point is that belief in God makes no sense to *you, yet we're discussing it a lot.  I'm not defending anything at this point here in this thread, however I'm interested in that Arian seems to suggest he's willing to take all points *you have and discuss them.  I'm interested in reading his responses.  I'm unsure if he will survive because at every turn he's being attacked and not simply asked, "ok...here's one point I'd like for you to explain..." and let him do it.  Maybe *you're not interested, but it seems one was and I'm also interested on his POV.

You messed up the citations, but I'd like to see all the chants of victory (I mean other than Egor), from anyone on this site. The problem with arian has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with arian attempting to argue by changing the meanings of words to something completely different than what the words mean. So that is why arian doesn't make sense, not because of the concepts being presented, but because arian, by all useful intents and purposes, is speaking a different unknown language that only arian seems to know.

Here again is the argument that "the words mean exactly this and you can't change them!".  Seems to me a person was banned for asking for clarification on exact words and their meanings...of course I'm sure the counter argument is "That's different".  A person can say something, but only in certain situation can the words mean something else or have a context to them otherwise, *you seem to think words mean exactly what they say and nothing more.  Only certain people have the ability to decide when and where there is a difference in meaning or context and here it's the Atheist that decides this...or so it seems. 

If he's speaking a different language, maybe we can learn what his language is, otherwise maybe *you don't want "in" on this conversation/discussion.

The only thing I'm "defending" here is I want to read Arian's explanations.

[Davin]

So you see nothing wrong that arian claims to be an "atheist" that beleives in god? That makes sense to you? And if religion is nonsense to you, why do you try to defend it?

What I meant is that the majority of HAF probably thinks religion, probably more specific, Christianity, is nonsense yet not enough nonsense that it won't be discussed here.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said, so why did you say this in response to my statement?

I don't recall Arian stating he's an Atheist that believes in God or god.  If he did, then I haven't read it or I didn't put much weight on the claim.

Here you go, arian's first post, My Lord, I'm an Atheist

My simply point is that belief in God makes no sense to *you, yet we're discussing it a lot.

Why make such a random unrelated point?

You messed up the citations, but I'd like to see all the chants of victory (I mean other than Egor), from anyone on this site. The problem with arian has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with arian attempting to argue by changing the meanings of words to something completely different than what the words mean. So that is why arian doesn't make sense, not because of the concepts being presented, but because arian, by all useful intents and purposes, is speaking a different unknown language that only arian seems to know.

Here again is the argument that "the words mean exactly this and you can't change them!".

No, I'm not making that argument at all, in the slightest, ever have or ever will.

Seems to me a person was banned for asking for clarification on exact words and their meanings...of course I'm sure the counter argument is "That's different".

Then relook at the reason for the ban, it wasn't for that at all.

A person can say something, but only in certain situation can the words mean something else or have a context to them otherwise, *you seem to think words mean exactly what they say and nothing more.

Either cite where I've said anything like this, or retract your error.

Only certain people have the ability to decide when and where there is a difference in meaning or context and here it's the Atheist that decides this...or so it seems.

Who has proposed anything like this?

If he's speaking a different language, maybe we can learn what his language is[...]

We tried and we were just met with more and more confusion. Hence the real reason for the ban.

[Ali]

So you see nothing wrong that arian claims to be an "atheist" that beleives in god? That makes sense to you? And if religion is nonsense to you, why do you try to defend it?

What I meant is that the majority of HAF probably thinks religion, probably more specific, Christianity, is nonsense yet not enough nonsense that it won't be discussed here.  I don't recall Arian stating he's an Atheist that believes in God or god.  If he did, then I haven't read it or I didn't put much weight on the claim.  My simply point is that belief in God makes no sense to *you, yet we're discussing it a lot.  I'm not defending anything at this point here in this thread, however I'm interested in that Arian seems to suggest he's willing to take all points *you have and discuss them.  I'm interested in reading his responses.  I'm unsure if he will survive because at every turn he's being attacked and not simply asked, "ok...here's one point I'd like for you to explain..." and let him do it.  Maybe *you're not interested, but it seems one was and I'm also interested on his POV.

You messed up the citations, but I'd like to see all the chants of victory (I mean other than Egor), from anyone on this site. The problem with arian has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with arian attempting to argue by changing the meanings of words to something completely different than what the words mean. So that is why arian doesn't make sense, not because of the concepts being presented, but because arian, by all useful intents and purposes, is speaking a different unknown language that only arian seems to know.

Here again is the argument that "the words mean exactly this and you can't change them!".  Seems to me a person was banned for asking for clarification on exact words and their meanings...of course I'm sure the counter argument is "That's different".  A person can say something, but only in certain situation can the words mean something else or have a context to them otherwise, *you seem to think words mean exactly what they say and nothing more.  Only certain people have the ability to decide when and where there is a difference in meaning or context and here it's the Atheist that decides this...or so it seems. 

If he's speaking a different language, maybe we can learn what his language is, otherwise maybe *you don't want "in" on this conversation/discussion.

The only thing I'm "defending" here is I want to read Arian's explanations.

*shakes head*  No.  Words mean something.  He was claiming to be an atheist who believes in god.  We asked him to explain it multiple times (see this thread specifically, but on other threads as well) http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9225.0  and the only thing that we got from him was that his god is the Bible God not a Theist God (no idea what the difference is) and then lots of preaching and then ranting.  I think many of us tried to be patient with him at first and get a better idea of what he was trying to say, but at the end of the day it really does just seem that he was using the word incorrectly and refusing to listen to anyone else about what it actually means.

It's like if I went to a Christian website and said "I'm a Christian!  Totally!  I don't believe in god, or the bible, or that Jesus ever existed or that the teachings of Jesus have any value in anyone's life, but I'm a Christian, and ps, I know better than the rest of you so-called Christians what it means to be a Christian."  Yeah, I'm sure people would have infinite patience with that.