Heaven, would you really want to exist forever ?

[Stevil]

I believe God, while originally not human in form, sees the human form as perfect.

The human form is far from perfect. It is inefficient at processing organic matter, with a substantial amount being excreted as waste. It is incomplete, depending on micro-organisms in order to function. In many ways it appears more suitable for an animal that travels on all fours rather than standing up. Its limitations are many, it cannot fly, it cannot tolerate cold or hot, it is one of the weakest bodies of all the mammals,  it is slow and cumbersome and takes an extremely long time for humans to reach self reliance. It has redundant parts e.g. the appendix, it cannot regenerate lost limbs. Birth complications seem higher than most animals. Other than our intelligence, there really is not much worth writing home about.

[Sweetdeath]

Not to mention how many daily nutrients we have to eat to stay functional. Annoying.

[AnimatedDirt]

The human form is far from perfect. It is inefficient at processing organic matter, with a substantial amount being excreted as waste. It is incomplete, depending on micro-organisms in order to function. In many ways it appears more suitable for an animal that travels on all fours rather than standing up. Its limitations are many, it cannot fly, it cannot tolerate cold or hot, it is one of the weakest bodies of all the mammals,  it is slow and cumbersome and takes an extremely long time for humans to reach self reliance. It has redundant parts e.g. the appendix, it cannot regenerate lost limbs. Birth complications seem higher than most animals. Other than our intelligence, there really is not much worth writing home about.

Are we discussing things in context of the piece of fiction or are we discussing in the context that the piece of fiction is not fiction?

Is there a better body design that any human has made a model of to show how there can be a better design rather than simply spouting off things "you" think are wrong?

It seems that this species, homo sapiens, has adapted to all these so called short-comings and compared to most species, out lives them.  What is the complaint?

Which other species do you know that builds an air conditioning unit to cool itself by the flip of a switch, or makes a coat to stay warm from wind breakers, to extreme cold down jackets or better?

I ask because from a standpoint of evolution, we are the best adapted species on earth...and from the context of the piece of fiction, this body, from the point of original sin is not what it was designed.  Sickness and disease... is a result of original sin.

[Stevil]

Are we discussing things in context of the piece of fiction or are we discussing in the context that the piece of fiction is not fiction?

Is there a better body design that any human has made a model of to show how there can be a better design rather than simply spouting off things "you" think are wrong?

It seems that this species, homo sapiens, has adapted to all these so called short-comings and compared to most species, out lives them.  What is the complaint?

Which other species do you know that builds an air conditioning unit to cool itself by the flip of a switch, or makes a coat to stay warm from wind breakers, to extreme cold down jackets or better?

I ask because from a standpoint of evolution, we are the best adapted species on earth...and from the context of the piece of fiction, this body, from the point of original sin is not what it was designed.  Sickness and disease... is a result of original sin.

There are an excruciatingly large amount of assertions one must give to the bible in order to go along with it.
You stated god would think the human form is perfect, I have showed why I think it is less than perfect. Our intellect allows us to overcome some of its many shortcomings.
With regards to sickness and disease, why do animals get sick and diseased?
Sickness and disease is a part of nature, it has no dependance on sin let alone original sin.

[AnimatedDirt]

There are an excruciatingly large amount of assertions one must give to the bible in order to go along with it.
You stated god would think the human form is perfect, I have showed why I think it is less than perfect. Our intellect allows us to overcome some of its many shortcomings.
With regards to sickness and disease, why do animals get sick and diseased?
Sickness and disease is a part of nature, it has no dependance on sin let alone original sin.

I did state god thinks (made) the human form perfect, but again I was hoping we could discuss within the context of the piece of fiction.

Within the context of the piece of fiction, it is because of man's sin and because of man, the animal kingdom, plant kingdom, earth...suffers also.

Sickness and disease are a part of nature...a part of nature because of sin.  You don't believe it, but can you "believe" in context of the piece of fiction...which I thought we were discussing under.

[Stevil]

I did state god thinks (made) the human form perfect, but again I was hoping we could discuss within the context of the piece of fiction.

I'm trying AD. I need to work out which are assertions and which are items I am allowed to think about and potentially relate to what I term as reality.

Within the context of the piece of fiction, it is because of man's sin and because of man, the animal kingdom, plant kingdom, earth...suffers also.

Sickness and disease are a part of nature...a part of nature because of sin.  You don't believe it, but can you "believe" in context of the piece of fiction...which I thought we were discussing under.

OK then, within this mythical god created world everyone suffers because humans (god's creation) sought knowledge (fruit from the tree of knowledge)
Please go on.

[Stevil]

Am I allowed to ask why animals get disease such as foot and mouth now in this mythical world?
It is not because humans are now behaving nasty and creating the foot and mouth disease. Who created the disease, why do the animals suffer now, it seems unrelated to human acts of sin.

[Stevil]

So, have I asked the wrong question?
How come AD has gone silent?

[AnimatedDirt]

Sorry.  The fun of the wknd kept me away.

I did state god thinks (made) the human form perfect, but again I was hoping we could discuss within the context of the piece of fiction.

I'm trying AD. I need to work out which are assertions and which are items I am allowed to think about and potentially relate to what I term as reality.

I understand.  Again, think of it as a discussion on the book(s) themselves and not whether you believe what is therein as actual truth, but simply truth as seen by the book(s).

OK then, within this mythical god created world everyone suffers because humans (god's creation) sought knowledge (fruit from the tree of knowledge)
Please go on.

To go into detail about this would be another book in itself...however in short, yes.  The humans seeked "knowledge" that they already owned.  It's much like a child.  This happened with my daughter and I'll use it as an analogy.  My daughter loved to take baths and liked the water a certain temperature.  It was cute.  We would fill the tub and she would touch the water with her hand and say, "No, too cold." or No, too hot."  So she understood the concept of cold and hot.  She also loved to stand in the kitchen and "help".  Upon pulling out a just finished batch of cookies from the oven, she was told not to touch becasue they were really hot.  Well, she couldn't resist and touched the melting chocolate and it stuck to her finger and for a split second she was happy, but the next instant she realized she was being burned.  So from that point on, she never touched things that came out of the oven, nor did she have a problem obeying about hot things again.

Now we can say that she knew all along what hot meant and she knew what it meant to be "burned", maybe not exactly, but the discomfort of "hot" was known.  The lesson is learned.  Knowledge was gained.  However one can never take the pain experience away, nor can the scars be removed (my daughter was not scarred).  The 'pain' representing the curses sin brings and the 'scars' representing that humanity is mortal apart from God.

This goes so much deeper in context of the bible.  However I think (hope) this explains the basics of it well.

Am I allowed to ask why animals get disease such as foot and mouth now in this mythical world?
It is not because humans are now behaving nasty and creating the foot and mouth disease. Who created the disease, why do the animals suffer now, it seems unrelated to human acts of sin.

I don't know why, but I do know that all sickness, disease and ultimately, death is a result of sin.  It will one day be removed completely and will be no more.

[Stevil]

So before humans were around on this mythical planet, no animals or plants got sick, none died?
Carnivorous animals did not eat other animals, herbivorous animals did not eat plants, scavenger animals did not feed off the dead, and parasitic animals did not feed off the living?
There were no baby animals, all created animals just grew to a certain, ideal age and then lived a happy and safe life?
Any fossil records, if people get into paleontology on this mythical world would reflect this and would show that no creature ever experienced broken bones or bone disorders before humans came along.
Everything was perfect and safe for all.

But then people came along discovered knowledge of the world which somehow introduced sin and death and disease, and hunger for meat, starvation etc. Now animals that might have been used to jumping off a large cliff as a quick way of getting to the bottom, will have found that all of a sudden this act kills them. Land animals that used to enjoy walking along the seabed to view the marine animals will now have found that this kills them. Animals unsuited for the Arctic would all of sudden discovered it is too cold and died etc. All of a sudden actions have consequences for all.

Then god sends himself as his own son via Mary and gets the Romans to nail him up onto a cross, where he dies, kind of, but comes back alive, even though all this time god remains presumably in heaven watching and judging all that goes on in the world. This changes something about the world.
What does it change?

[AnimatedDirt]

Once again you're pulling this into reality when you don't believe it to be real.  I'm trying to discuss this (as best I can) with you under the context of this being simply a piece of fiction.

In short, no.  Death did exist prior to humans.  How it all fits in EXACTLY is a mystery.  It's not part of the scope of the piece of fiction to explain those details as important they may seem to some.  It's accepted that a time will come when everything will make sense just like there are things we don't understand about our universe but accept that Science will at some point be able to answer these.

[Stevil]

In short, no.  Death did exist prior to humans.  How it all fits in EXACTLY is a mystery.  It's not part of the scope of the piece of fiction to explain those details as important they may seem to some.  It's accepted that a time will come when everything will make sense just like there are things we don't understand about our universe but accept that Science will at some point be able to answer these.

OK, so the details are unimportant, if the story don't make sense in relation to what science thinks is knows and what the story states then we just accept that science has not advanced enough yet to solve the mystery of the story. We have faith that the story is correct, but no faith in our own ability to reconcile, we just accept and move forwards with the story.

Can we move on to this next bit

Then god sends himself as his own son via Mary and gets the Romans to nail him up onto a cross, where he dies, kind of, but comes back alive, even though all this time god remains presumably in heaven watching and judging all that goes on in the world. This changes something about the world.
What does it change?

[AnimatedDirt]

Then god sends himself as his own son via Mary and gets the Romans to nail him up onto a cross, where he dies, kind of, but comes back alive, even though all this time god remains presumably in heaven watching and judging all that goes on in the world. This changes something about the world.
What does it change?

For one, the covenant that was previously (OT) based on a promise, is now based on that promise fulfilled.  Where the OT believer looked forward to a Savior in faith, we now look back to that promised Savior with that same faith.  Nothing has changed in how a person is saved.

Christ, being the ultimate sacrificial lamb, by His death, put an end to the ceremonial (symbolic) system of sacrifice.  He fulfilled the Law in that He kept it perfectly.  He didn't do away with the law, just that the law no longer testifies to our sinfulness if we are in Christ.

Many things changed...I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

[Stevil]

Christ, being the ultimate sacrificial lamb, by His death, put an end to the ceremonial (symbolic) system of sacrifice.  He fulfilled the Law in that He kept it perfectly.  He didn't do away with the law, just that the law no longer testifies to our sinfulness if we are in Christ.

Many things changed...I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

Well, the death of JC seems to be something profound to Christians, to me it is inevitable that a human will die, so more to be expected rather than profound. But I presume there was some purpose such that JC had to be put to death. Some Christians state that JC died for us. You have stated this. I objected and basically this is why we are having this conversation.
So I would like to know what the significance of his death is and how anyone, human or god benefited from this "sacrifice". Also I would like to know how it can be claimed as a sacrifice when it seemed to be a punishment rather than a sacrifice to the gods. The Romans at the time believed in Zeus didn't they? Wouldn't they have sacrificed JC to Zeus if it were a god sacrifice?

[AnimatedDirt]

Well, the death of JC seems to be something profound to Christians, to me it is inevitable that a human will die, so more to be expected rather than profound.

If it is inevitable that humans die, why do we make heroes out of those that put their lives on the line for our freedom?  Are you saying that we should not care whether someone has given their leg or arm or their life in the fight for freedom?  What about simply the fight the nation finds itself in politically?  Has this soldier paid any less of a price for the beliefs of a "nation" whether it be freedom or oil?  These are good (in the great scheme) things to die for aren't they?  Who makes the death of a soldier in a recent war any less of a sacrifice than that of another war(s)?

But I presume there was some purpose such that JC had to be put to death. Some Christians state that JC died for us. You have stated this. I objected and basically this is why we are having this conversation.

Whether you like it or not, in the context of the piece of fiction, JC died for all.  The peoples of that piece of fiction can object until the day they die.  The "fact" remains, its been done.  The option is there for all.  It can be thrown away and it can be redeemed fully if one changes their mind later.

So I would like to know what the significance of his death is and how anyone, human or god benefited from this "sacrifice".

In the context of the piece of fiction, either the one that has sinned pays for his/her own sin and dies the death of a sinner (complete separation from God/annihilation) or he/she claims faith in Christ and then is (legally) given life because their debt to sin has been paid by God.  Salvation is a gift one must accept.  If "you" don't accept it, it can't be given.

Also I would like to know how it can be claimed as a sacrifice when it seemed to be a punishment rather than a sacrifice to the gods. The Romans at the time believed in Zeus didn't they? Wouldn't they have sacrificed JC to Zeus if it were a god sacrifice?

Punishment for what?  Even Pilate washed his hands of Christ's death and said he found no wrong doing in him.  It was the Romans that physically put Christ on the cross, but it was the Jewish Pharisees and Sanhedrin that condemened him.  There is no claim whatsoever by the Romans that they were placing this Jesus on a cross as a sacrifice to Zeus.  Where did you get that from?