Something can come from nothing.

[xSilverPhinx]

There is also no confirmed evidence for additional dimensions beyond the 4 we can currently percieve.

I assume you are including time as the forth dimension. Yeah, I don't think there are more dimensions than this, for this reason I am highly skeptical of string theory with its insistence on 11 dimensions and a 1 dimensional vibrating string.

Some say that it's in fact a holographic universe with only 2 spatial dimensions. (apparently with some evidence to suggest, based on why the universe doesn't loose information in black holes, but I couldn't understand it if I tried).

[DeterminedJuliet]

Bruce nothing can eliminate the possibility of a personal fantasy, particularly one that has taken decades to fabricate. You can believe what you like, it's your right. If you want to live in a fantasy it's your choice. And no you can't claim triumph, so why on Earth do you and people like you continue to base your entire world view on something you can't even accurately describe let alone agree on? There is no objective, repeatable, testable evidence for the existance of the supernatural in any form, so sorry but because of this I feel quite at liberty to dismiss the existance of the supernatural and all that that entails.

Nothing can stop you from describing faith in God as a personal fantasy, and nothing can stop you from deciding to limit reality to those things that you can repeatably test.  But there are others who have different experiences than you do, and who have concluded that those personal experiences point toward another aspect of reality that folks such as yourself reject a priori.  I see no need to reject science or the empirical findings of those who work in the realm of objective, repeatable testing of hypotheses. But I also see no need to reject other sources of information about reality that are not subject to the scientific method, and that may lead to faith as opposed to knowledge. Our difference is epistemological.

I don't know how you could make any claim to know anything about "reality" without the scientific method. The whole point of the method is to try and verify that something isn't just made up in your mind, or a creation of personal bias. "Faith", to me, is just another word for "subjective gobbledegook." Yeah, we all have subjective views on things, you need to to function in the day to day world, but I wouldn't call that a virtue.

Beyond that, of course this doesn't "disprove" God, but it certainly doesn't strengthen the case for a Creator God.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

"Faith", to me, is just another word for "subjective gobbledegook." Yeah, we all have subjective views on things, you need to to function in the day to day world, but I wouldn't call that a virtue.

I certainly think that faith is a virtue in the non-religious realm.  No business venture, no new movement ever began without faith - faith that the business would be profitable or faith that the movement would change things.  Without faith, we lose hope in the future.  When you transport faith over into the religious realm, it doesn't have to be much different - faith that it all means something, faith that there is hope for the future, even after life.  It gets many people through the night.  So it can be a virtue, IMO.

[joeactor]

Just a general thought based on complexity of the universe vs. complexity of god.

1) Since the universe becomes more complex with time, and
2) It had a (fairly) simple set of beginning conditions...
3) Is it possible to posit a god that is even simpler giving rise to the initial conditions and rules that govern the universe's creation?

More of a deist view than anything.  And it doesn't say anything about if said "god" was created, is still around, or what he/she/it is capable of...

I think many religious and non-religious people get into trouble when they try to define "god".
This is where the omni-whatevers come from and all the mental anguish.

"I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer.

Everyone has faith.  Everyone has knowledge.  Nobody operates in a day-to-day existence without both.

2 cents from JoeActor

[Asmodean]

Everyone has faith.  Everyone has knowledge.  Nobody operates in a day-to-day existence without both.

Are you sure you are not mistaking trust for faith?

For instane, do I believe the quantum theory guys are on to something? Yes. Is it faith? No. I am nowhere near the degree of confidence to call my moderate trust in those scientists anything even remotely close to faith.

[joeactor]

Everyone has faith.  Everyone has knowledge.  Nobody operates in a day-to-day existence without both.

Are you sure you are not mistaking trust for faith?

For instance, do I believe the quantum theory guys are on to something? Yes. Is it faith? No. I am nowhere near the degree of confidence to call my moderate trust in those scientists anything even remotely close to faith.

Trust and faith are a continuum for me.  Some things lean toward trust, others toward faith.  I think people are also on the continuum.  Some are more faith-based, some trust-based... but few if any are all faith or all trust.

Just part of being a meat-computer, IMHO.

[DeterminedJuliet]

"Faith", to me, is just another word for "subjective gobbledegook." Yeah, we all have subjective views on things, you need to to function in the day to day world, but I wouldn't call that a virtue.

I certainly think that faith is a virtue in the non-religious realm.  No business venture, no new movement ever began without faith - faith that the business would be profitable or faith that the movement would change things.  Without faith, we lose hope in the future.  When you transport faith over into the religious realm, it doesn't have to be much different - faith that it all means something, faith that there is hope for the future, even after life.  It gets many people through the night.  So it can be a virtue, IMO.

I guess I just don't get that. You could say that I have "faith" that my husband isn't cheating on me, but it's not a stand-alone belief just because I want to believe it. I also have plenty of reasons to trust him. If he started giving me reasons to distrust him, my faith in him would be misplaced and misguided.

All business ventures, movements, and ideas should really have a logic to them before you put your faith in them; the more detached something is from reason, the less I think you should put faith in it. I.e, If you start a business based on a solid understanding of your market niche and business principles, yes, I think you should have the "faith" in it to follow it through. If you start a business plan because you hear voices in your head that tell you to sell pencil shavings, no, I don't think faith in that venture would be a virtue.

The faith that we use on a day-to-day basis is just a middle-man for logic, to my mind. It can be a great motivator, but I'd think it needs to have some substance behind it.

[Heisenberg]

Everyone has faith.  Everyone has knowledge.  Nobody operates in a day-to-day existence without both.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. Can you provide an example of something that every atheist puts 'faith' in?

[Heisenberg]

"Faith", to me, is just another word for "subjective gobbledegook." Yeah, we all have subjective views on things, you need to to function in the day to day world, but I wouldn't call that a virtue.

I certainly think that faith is a virtue in the non-religious realm.  No business venture, no new movement ever began without faith - faith that the business would be profitable or faith that the movement would change things.  Without faith, we lose hope in the future.  When you transport faith over into the religious realm, it doesn't have to be much different - faith that it all means something, faith that there is hope for the future, even after life.  It gets many people through the night.  So it can be a virtue, IMO.

I guess I just don't get that. You could say that I have "faith" that my husband isn't cheating on me, but it's not a stand-alone belief just because I want to believe it. I also have plenty of reasons to trust him. If he started giving me reasons to distrust him, my faith in him would be misplaced and misguided.

All business ventures, movements, and ideas should really have a logic to them before you put your faith in them; the more detached something is from reason, the less I think you should put faith in it. I.e, If you start a business based on a solid understanding of your market niche and business principles, yes, I think you should have the "faith" in it to follow it through. If you start a business plan because you hear voices in your head that tell you to sell pencil shavings, no, I don't think faith in that venture would be a virtue.

The faith that we use on a day-to-day basis is just a middle-man for logic, to my mind. It can be a great motivator, but I'd think it needs to have some substance behind it.

Completely agree. If you start a business with nothing but faith, you're not going to make it very long at all. I'm pretty sure that everyone who has ever started a venture had a logical reason to do so, be it that they believed they knew what they were doing, that they had a good idea, etc. The second you have ANY reason to believe something, you cease to rely on faith.

In fact, the only way one could start a business based on faith is if they knew they were a bad businessman with a bad idea, yet still believed it would work. Know a lot of people like that Ecurb?

[Asmodean]

Trust and faith are a continuum for me.

So is yellow and orange, yet those are two different colors. You can, I suppose, say that faith is trust which requires supreme confidence in the object of that trust. However, even worded that way, it is a highly faulty assumption that everyone trusts in something on that level.

[Tank]

Everyone has faith.  Everyone has knowledge.  Nobody operates in a day-to-day existence without both.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. Can you provide an example of something that every atheist puts 'faith' in?

That they will wake up in the morning 

[Asmodean]

That they will wake up in the morning 

Never really went to bed expecting to wake up... I do, however, go to bed expeting to fall asleep. Some times I do not though, so the level of trust I put in those expectations is meager at best.

[Heisenberg]

That they will wake up in the morning 

Never really went to bed expecting to wake up... I do, however, go to bed expeting to fall asleep. Some times I do not though, so the level of trust I put in those expectations is meager at best.

Haha

Well, if you go to sleep you're either going to wake up or die. Seeing as how I'm only 25, I can't reasonably expect to die in my sleep tonight and the fact that I have woken up every single time I have gone to sleep ever is reason enough for me to expect to wake up.

[DeterminedJuliet]

That they will wake up in the morning 

Never really went to bed expecting to wake up... I do, however, go to bed expeting to fall asleep. Some times I do not though, so the level of trust I put in those expectations is meager at best.

Haha

Well, if you go to sleep you're either going to wake up or die. Seeing as how I'm only 25, I can't reasonably expect to die in my sleep tonight and the fact that I have woken up every single time I have gone to sleep ever is reason enough for me to expect to wake up.

The probability of a healthy 25 year old dying on any given day is very, very low. I think that's a pretty good reason to have faith that I'll wake up tomorrow.

If I was 108 years old, I might not have that faith.

[Asmodean]

That they will wake up in the morning 

Never really went to bed expecting to wake up... I do, however, go to bed expeting to fall asleep. Some times I do not though, so the level of trust I put in those expectations is meager at best.

Haha

Well, if you go to sleep you're either going to wake up or die. Seeing as how I'm only 25, I can't reasonably expect to die in my sleep tonight and the fact that I have woken up every single time I have gone to sleep ever is reason enough for me to expect to wake up.

True, if you can be bothered to reason that way. Me, I do not go to bed to wake up - I go there to sleep. When I wake up, I wake up. If I don't, it won't matter.