Thoughts on forgiveness

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I fully realize that biblical texts don't mean a whole lot on this forum, but I would like to discuss one issue related to forgiveness.  In I Corinthians 6:2 Paul says that the "saints will judge the world."  For Paul, "saints" meant believers.  In John 20:33, Jesus said to his followers that "if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them...."  So, assume that Christians will judge the world, as Paul says.  According to the John passage, they could forgive any sin.  Why wouldn't they forgive everyone so that no one would be condemned?

[AnimatedDirt]

While I do agree with you that it seems humanity would forgive each other.
However, if this is so, it 1. makes God a liar stating that death is a result of sin and 2. Makes God's Son's death totally unnecessary.

One more thought.  When we ask for forgiveness, are we not to ask forgiveness of those we sin against AND then ask for God's?  God can only forgive sin through Jesus...at least this is the way I see it.  If we are forgiven by men...that only says we have man's forgiveness.  Man is not the Creator and Sustainer of life.  Our forgiveness from a man means nothing in the great scheme of things.

[Too Few Lions]

I'm very glad that neither Christians nor their god will be judging the world, and what's written in the Bible is no more true or relevant to my life than what's written in the Wind in the Willows. Personally, I don't need forgiveness from Christians or their sky fairy because I don't commit 'sin' in the first place!

Quoting from the Bible means nothing to an atheist, it's just a book written by lots of different superstitious unenlightened people over hundreds of years a couple of thousand years ago. The likelihood of Christians or their god judging us after death is on a par with Anubis weighing our hearts against a feather!

Your belief in judgement and forgiveness / condemnation is as ridiculous and outdated to an atheist as this image may appear to you;

[Recusant]

So, assume that Christians will judge the world, as Paul says.  According to the John passage, they could forgive any sin.  Why wouldn't they forgive everyone so that no one would be condemned?

I've encountered some Christians who say that the Bible tells them that they are not only empowered to judge the world, but required to do so. The thing is, most of them that believe this are also rather quick to assert that those who call themselves Christians who do not agree with them are heretics. So they judge not only the godless blasphemers against the Holy Ghost (pfb) like myself, but their putative brothers and sisters in Christ. These folks seem to relish their supposed commission from YHVH/Jesus/HG, and generally don't seem to be inclined to forgiveness. In regards to the question you ask, I would answer that such people believe that their god is a vengeful god, and that the best way to serve him is to emulate his character. That is, they don't see forgiveness as a high priority.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

My point in mentioning this topic was not to suggest that atheists care about what is written in the New Testament.  It was simply to pose a hypothetical: if Christians are to judge the world, and if they have the power to forgive anyone, why wouldn't they do it?  The idea that this would somehow nullify the atonement seems misguided to me.  It would merely extend the atonement to all people.  A judge will have some discretion in his rulings, and can order probation instead of having a sentence carried out. If the judicial power is combined with executive power, the judge could also commute or pardon.

I would not be able to send another human being to eternal torment, if such a thing exists.  If that disqualifies me as a judge, so be it. But assuming for the sake of argument that Jesus is who he says he is and that he gave believers the power to judge and to forgive, it seems as though forgiveness would be the norm.  Didn't he teach us to love our enemies, to forgive and not to condemn?   

[Too Few Lions]

it's just a pointless hypothetical to an atheist, as it's not going to happen. A bit like asking 'if hypothetically Anubis does exist, could he really condemn any of us to be devoured by Ammut if our hearts weighed more than a feather?'

I also think that any Christians who believe that they are going to get to judge the rest of humanity are living in a very self-delusional little world. But it's nice to know that you won't be condemning us all to eternal torment if you're ever placed in that hypothetical situation, if ever I find myself sporting a jackal's head in the afterlife, I'll extend the same courtesy to you or any other Christian when I come to weigh your heart.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I also think that any Christians who believe that they are going to get to judge the rest of humanity are living in a very self-delusional little world. But it's nice to know that you won't be condemning us all to eternal torment if you're ever placed in that hypothetical situation, if ever I find myself sporting a jackal's head in the afterlife, I'll extend the same courtesy to you or any other Christian when I come to weigh your heart.

Well, thank you. Now I can die in peace! 

[Stevil]

How many Christians are required to forgive, all of them, some of them, one of them?
These quotes you have presented are quite consistent with my perception of the bible, vague and nonsensical. Time to start studying a better book, me thinks. This one has been done to death.

[AnimatedDirt]

How many Christians are required to forgive, all of them, some of them, one of them?
These quotes you have presented are quite consistent with my perception of the bible, vague and nonsensical. Time to start studying a better book, me thinks. This one has been done to death.

Saying you forgive someone of something does not absolve that person to the consequences of that act.  If I steal your money and I ask for forgiveness, I'm sure I'd get it, but does that remove the consequences of that act?  From now on you'll be looking at me a bit closer and/or I may go to jail for a time or get fined...whatever it is, I cannot avoid the consequence.

Every person that has lived will be forgiven.  No question about that in my mind  There is a consequence for being a human separated from God by sin, however minor that sin is.  The question, I know I've mentioned before here at HAF, is who is going to pay the consequence of sin?  (in the scenario of the Bible and God) If you choose to be apart from God, then you pay for it yourself.  Death.  If you claim the Savior, then His death is counted as your death and the debt is paid...and you live.  The difference is only God can forgive AND restore.  Man can only forgive. 

[Too Few Lions]

How many Christians are required to forgive, all of them, some of them, one of them?
These quotes you have presented are quite consistent with my perception of the bible, vague and nonsensical. Time to start studying a better book, me thinks. This one has been done to death.

Saying you forgive someone of something does not absolve that person to the consequences of that act.  If I steal your money and I ask for forgiveness, I'm sure I'd get it, but does that remove the consequences of that act?  From now on you'll be looking at me a bit closer and/or I may go to jail for a time or get fined...whatever it is, I cannot avoid the consequence.

Every person that has lived will be forgiven.  No question about that in my mind  There is a consequence for being a human separated from God by sin, however minor that sin is.  The question, I know I've mentioned before here at HAF, is who is going to pay the consequence of sin?  (in the scenario of the Bible and God) If you choose to be apart from God, then you pay for it yourself.  Death.  If you claim the Savior, then His death is counted as your death and the debt is paid...and you live.  The difference is only God can forgive AND restore.  Man can only forgive.  

So I'm separated from something that doesn't exist by something that doesn't exist. I hope you can see how ridiculous your argument sounds to an atheist.

I live, then I die like any other animal, and I'm happy with that. I'll just enjoy my life while I'm here.

[AnimatedDirt]

So I'm separated from something that doesn't exist by something that doesn't exist. I hope you can see how ridiculous your argument sounds to an atheist.

I live, then I die like any other animal, and I'm happy with that. I'll just enjoy my life while I'm here.

You can either engage in the topic or keep suggesting how rediculous it sounds to you.  Obviously we are on an Atheist forum so I can expect this type of reply, but when the OP prefaces the question with 'lets assume for arguments sake' it seems unnecessary for you to continue posting the obvious position of this forum.  I tend to think there are some that MIGHT find the thoughts and ideas resulting from this interesting.

[Stevil]

Every person that has lived will be forgiven.

How do we have knowledge of this 'fact'?
What does forgiveness mean? What is the tangible outcome of having been forgiven?

There is a consequence for being a human separated from God by sin, however minor that sin is.  The question, I know I've mentioned before here at HAF, is who is going to pay the consequence of sin?  (in the scenario of the Bible and God)

How do we have knowledge of this 'fact'? How do we know that those who sin pay the consequence of death? You said Jesus did not sin and yet he died. All humans die regardless of whether we sin or not. Please don't tell me that the still born child has sinned.

If you choose to be apart from God, then you pay for it yourself.  Death. 

I have not chosen to be apart from any gods, no more than I have chosen to be apart from the loch ness monster.

If you claim the Savior, then His death is counted as your death and the debt is paid...and you live.  The difference is only God can forgive AND restore.  Man can only forgive. 

How do we have knowledge of this 'fact'?
All humans die eventually, even though some claim Jesus as their saviour. Does this mean that Jesus is not the Saviour?

[Too Few Lions]

You can either engage in the topic or keep suggesting how rediculous it sounds to you.  Obviously we are on an Atheist forum so I can expect this type of reply, but when the OP prefaces the question with 'lets assume for arguments sake' it seems unnecessary for you to continue posting the obvious position of this forum.  I tend to think there are some that MIGHT find the thoughts and ideas resulting from this interesting.

Yes, we're on an atheist forum, and you've just reeled off a load of theological speculation as if it were fact. It's just your opinion, and I can't really debate over things that don't exist (for me). I think Stevil takes your argument apart rather nicely in the post above. Atheists don't choose to be apart from your (or any other) god, it's like saying we choose to be apart from the tooth fairy, it just doesn't exist for us to have any relationship with.

[AnimatedDirt]

How do we have knowledge of this 'fact'?
What does forgiveness mean? What is the tangible outcome of having been forgiven?

Fact?  Is it really that difficult to understand, 'for arguments sake'?  I don't think the OP is meant to prove anything.

Forgiveness means one is excused or even pardoned from an act against another or a law.  Between friends it may simply be a release of anger or a harboring of resentment of a certain act against the other.  Everyone is offered this second type of forgiveness from God at any moment.  The former type, or pardon, is only offered to those that pay the penalty for an act against another or against law.  When a believer is forgiven, he/she claims belief in Christ and claims His death as theirs.  For arguments sake, God can now justify by his own death, the life of a sinner.  However when an unbeliever gets forgiveness, he/she must die to pay for the act(s) against God's law (we know according to biblical claim - and for arguments sake, one sin can damn a person) the problem the unbeliever has is that God cannot then justify their forgiveness AND life everlasting as the wages of sin is death.  God is able to justify believers through Christ because Christ died apart from sin.  Christ (while being God himself) was raised by God (the father) because the Son was innocent to sin, yet died as the penalty of sin ONCE for all.  Just like Adam (and Eve) sinned once and therefore damned all of their offspring, so Christ has died and offers life to all that will accept the gift.  --Apologies if that is preachy, but in a nutshell that is the Good News Christians speak of and the definition of forgiveness from God --

How do we have knowledge of this 'fact'? How do we know that those who sin pay the consequence of death? You said Jesus did not sin and yet he died. All humans die regardless of whether we sin or not. Please don't tell me that the still born child has sinned.

The still born child, while it has not sinned directly, it is genetically handed down from Adam.  I don't know what God will do about children or infants or still born babies...there is no explicit words to that subject.  We therefore expect God will be fair and merciful.

We won't really know this consequence until the end, but we are told of the consequence before so we have a choice.

I have not chosen to be apart from any gods, no more than I have chosen to be apart from the loch ness monster.

True, but also, you are not without knowldege of the Loch Ness Monster should it be a god, nor of the Christian God should He be God.

How do we have knowledge of this 'fact'?
All humans die eventually, even though some claim Jesus as their saviour. Does this mean that Jesus is not the Saviour?

Again, we are discussing 'for arguments sake'.  Nothing can be proven until the time comes...if it does, for arguments sake.

[Too Few Lions]

but what if (like me) you haven't ever sinned? and also (like me) you've not inherited any sin because you're not descended from Adam and Eve (because they're mythical) and also (like me) you don't require any forgiveness from any god, be it Yahweh or Anubis? Then speculation on divine forgiveness are a bit pointless aren't they?