I have a problem with Evolution

[SuperiorEd]

Since the observer collapses the indeterminate wave of probability, then consciousness has a hand in matter.  Can they be separated?  Since matter is shaped by consciousness, then is it safe to assume that consciousness pre-exists matter or can matter pre-exist consciousness? 

My second problem with evolution is found when considering entropy in information theory.  Since a bit of information can have an expectation of degradation over time, then DNA should not be able to work against this entropy.  How do we explain this when viewing the complexity and unity in purpose when viewing nature?  And yes, I believe we are designed.  Religion aside, how do we explain these very clear paradoxes?

[xSilverPhinx]

Since the observer collapses the indeterminate wave of probability, then consciousness has a hand in matter.  Can they be separated?  Since matter is shaped by consciousness, then is it safe to assume that consciousness pre-exists matter or can matter pre-exist consciousness?

I don't think it's safe to assume anything. The mind generates a good deal of the reality everybody experiences.

My second problem with evolution is found when considering entropy in information theory.  Since a bit of information can have an expectation of degradation over time, then DNA should not be able to work against this entropy.  How do we explain this when viewing the complexity and unity in purpose when viewing nature?  And yes, I believe we are designed.  Religion aside, how do we explain these very clear paradoxes?

One of the defining characteristics of life is that it does counter entropy (to some extent, but much more so than if it were a dead mass), expect that it needs and uses energy to do this. There is no violation of any physical laws in this.

[SuperiorEd]

Since the observer collapses the indeterminate wave of probability, then consciousness has a hand in matter.  Can they be separated?  Since matter is shaped by consciousness, then is it safe to assume that consciousness pre-exists matter or can matter pre-exist consciousness?

I don't think it's safe to assume anything. The mind generates a good deal of the reality everybody experiences.

My second problem with evolution is found when considering entropy in information theory.  Since a bit of information can have an expectation of degradation over time, then DNA should not be able to work against this entropy.  How do we explain this when viewing the complexity and unity in purpose when viewing nature?  And yes, I believe we are designed.  Religion aside, how do we explain these very clear paradoxes?

One of the defining characteristics of life is that it does counter entropy (to some extent, but much more so than if it were a dead mass), expect that it needs and uses energy to do this. There is no violation of any physical laws in this.

I do agree that life defies entropy in energy, but I was referencing entropy in information.  This is a far different subject.  No energy can defy entropy in information apart form choice and logic.

[xSilverPhinx]

Since the observer collapses the indeterminate wave of probability, then consciousness has a hand in matter.  Can they be separated?  Since matter is shaped by consciousness, then is it safe to assume that consciousness pre-exists matter or can matter pre-exist consciousness?

I don't think it's safe to assume anything. The mind generates a good deal of the reality everybody experiences.

My second problem with evolution is found when considering entropy in information theory.  Since a bit of information can have an expectation of degradation over time, then DNA should not be able to work against this entropy.  How do we explain this when viewing the complexity and unity in purpose when viewing nature?  And yes, I believe we are designed.  Religion aside, how do we explain these very clear paradoxes?

One of the defining characteristics of life is that it does counter entropy (to some extent, but much more so than if it were a dead mass), expect that it needs and uses energy to do this. There is no violation of any physical laws in this.

I do agree that life defies entropy in energy, but I was referencing entropy in information.  This is a far different subject.  No energy can defy entropy in information apart form choice and logic.

Life doesn't defy entropy in energy (your choice of word makes it look like it's unnatural) it just actively uses energy to go against it, but again, within the laws of physics (living beings are not closed systems).

I don't really get what you mean. DNA is digital (as in not analogue) and does suffer mutations. ???

[SuperiorEd]

Since the observer collapses the indeterminate wave of probability, then consciousness has a hand in matter.  Can they be separated?  Since matter is shaped by consciousness, then is it safe to assume that consciousness pre-exists matter or can matter pre-exist consciousness?

I don't really get what you mean. DNA is digital (as in not analogue) and does suffer mutations. ???

DNA is digital is yet an additional level of the same problem for evolution from my understanding.  As you view this, understand that the structure of DNA is digital, but what DNA accomplishes is based on a specific task to a purpose.  This is information of a differing nature to just digitally structured sequences.  Information of the type that would succumb to entropy in information involves the type that specifies behavior.  Genes are specified for behavior by the digital code making up the gene regulatory network.  Layer after layer of purpose building the layers and layers of life working in unison for equilibrium.  This is astounding and beyond just digital or analog information.  This needs to have a third category of designed.  It is really very obvious.   

As for entropy in energy, we are still talking about systems using the energy by being governed.  There is no need to debate entropy in energy since we do not have a fundamental idea in science as to where the massive energy in an atom originates.  Laws that govern require a governor. 

[fester30]

Since the observer collapses the indeterminate wave of probability, then consciousness has a hand in matter.  Can they be separated?  Since matter is shaped by consciousness, then is it safe to assume that consciousness pre-exists matter or can matter pre-exist consciousness?

I don't really get what you mean. DNA is digital (as in not analogue) and does suffer mutations. ???

DNA is digital is yet an additional level of the same problem for evolution from my understanding.  As you view this, understand that the structure of DNA is digital, but what DNA accomplishes is based on a specific task to a purpose.  This is information of a differing nature to just digitally structured sequences.  Information of the type that would succumb to entropy in information involves the type that specifies behavior.  Genes are specified for behavior by the digital code making up the gene regulatory network.  Layer after layer of purpose building the layers and layers of life working in unison for equilibrium.  This is astounding and beyond just digital or analog information.  This needs to have a third category of designed.  It is really very obvious.   

As for entropy in energy, we are still talking about systems using the energy by being governed.  There is no need to debate entropy in energy since we do not have a fundamental idea in science as to where the massive energy in an atom originates.  Laws that govern require a governor. 

Okay but this is really a dead-end argument, unless you believe in multiple gods of multiple levels (other than the 3 in 1 package you call the trinity).  By your own logic, your designer would require a designer.

[xSilverPhinx]

DNA is digital is yet an additional level of the same problem for evolution from my understanding.  As you view this, understand that the structure of DNA is digital, but what DNA accomplishes is based on a specific task to a purpose.

And this makes it difficult to be the result of an evolutionary process why? Again, your use of language is the problem here, IMO.

This is information of a differing nature to just digitally structured sequences.  Information of the type that would succumb to entropy in information involves the type that specifies behavior.  Genes are specified for behavior by the digital code making up the gene regulatory network.  Layer after layer of purpose building the layers and layers of life working in unison for equilibrium.  This is astounding and beyond just digital or analog information.  This needs to have a third category of designed.  It is really very obvious.

No, it's not. Why can't it be an evolved system? Because it's complex? 

As for entropy in energy, we are still talking about systems using the energy by being governed.  There is no need to debate entropy in energy since we do not have a fundamental idea in science as to where the massive energy in an atom originates.  Laws that govern require a governor.

There are laws that govern the universe. Saying that because those exist that a governor exists is a leap of faith, not logic.

Hopefully on the topic of DNA Squid (another poster here) will come around and clarify things...

[Recusant]

Since the observer collapses the indeterminate wave of probability...

From my understanding, this is relevant only for that observer, and only by the act of observing. How can we say that wave collapse occurred before the wave function was even known of, and experiments were devised to observe that function? In addition, there is not a consensus regarding this. Some theorists maintain that "wave collapse" is actually an epiphenomenon.  

...then consciousness has a hand in matter.

I don't see how you can extrapolate from the first clause to this.  Can you cite a source which shows a scientific consensus that supports your assertion?

...Laws that govern require a governor.

You seem to be using a legalistic understanding of the word "law" while ignoring the actual meaning of the term "scientific law."

From "Scientific Hypothesis, Theory, Law Definitions" by Anne Marie Helmenstine, Ph.D.:

A law generalizes a body of observations. At the time it is made, no exceptions have been found to a law. Scientific laws explain things, but they do not describe them. One way to tell a law and a theory apart is to ask if the description gives you a means to explain 'why'.

Scientific laws do not in any sense "govern" anything. Rather, as the quote says, they are explanations which are generalized from a body of observations. In my opinion, they are constructs of human understanding. To take the term "scientific law" and posit some sort of "law giver" (which is what you seem to be trying to do) is to misrepresent the meaning of the term.

[The Magic Pudding]

Since the observer collapses the indeterminate wave of probability, then consciousness has a hand in matter.  Can they be separated?  Since matter is shaped by consciousness, then is it safe to assume that consciousness pre-exists matter or can matter pre-exist consciousness?  

Conciousness is created by matter, squishy brain matter, no brain no conciousness, the lumps of rock will still do what they did before life started to go ooh, and ah in response to their dance.  This leap never ceases to amaze me, or it hasn't yet anyway

Life is beautiful and I wish for it to never end.
Life is cruel, but it shouldn't be, I wish it not to be.
But there's a better one, close your eyes, let go.

http://www.getlyrics.com/lou-reed/street-hassle-lyrics/

Well hey(man), that's just a lie,
It's a lie she tells her friends.
'cause the real song, the real song
Where she won't even admit to herself
The beating in her heart.
It's a song lots of people know.
It's a painful song
A little sad truth
But life full of sad songs
Penny for a wish
But wishing won't make you a soldier.
With a pretty kiss for a pretty face
Can't have it's way
Y'know tramps like us, we were born to pay.

Love has gone away
And there's no one here now
And there's nothing left to say
But, oh, how I miss him, baby
Oh, baby, come on and slip away
Come on, baby, why don't you slip away

Love is gone away
Took the rings off my fingers
And there's nothing left to say
But, oh how, oh how I need him, baby
Come on, baby, I need you baby
Oh, please don't slip away
I need your loving so bad, babe
Please don't slip away

I understand the yearning leading to the leap.
I feel and see nothing on the other side.
You make the leap before you leave your life.
And loose so much in your fall.


Sorry this is the science section and I'm doing crappy poetry, but it didn't sound very scientific to me.
I'm going to view the fall of man as the fall away from reason.

[Stevil]

Since the observer collapses the indeterminate wave of probability, then consciousness has a hand in matter.  Can they be separated?  Since matter is shaped by consciousness, then is it safe to assume that consciousness pre-exists matter or can matter pre-exist consciousness? 

My second problem with evolution is found when considering entropy in information theory.  Since a bit of information can have an expectation of degradation over time, then DNA should not be able to work against this entropy.  How do we explain this when viewing the complexity and unity in purpose when viewing nature?  And yes, I believe we are designed.  Religion aside, how do we explain these very clear paradoxes?

Wow, you are absolutely right.
It must be god. It must be. It couldn't be anything else.

It must have been the Christian god, he is magnificent, all powerful, all knowing
Oh blessed god, how great thou art.
So high and mighty
So perfect and loving
If only I could worship you like no one else has,
Oh please forgive me all mighty wonderful god
How could I have been so blind.
An Atheist with a black heart full of Satan's deceipt.
Oh mighty god, so wonderful and powerful, your love fills me with warmth.
The warm fuzzies that only Christians can feel.

I must share this joy with the world. The atheists must be turned, they must see the love of the Christian god.
Jesus and Jesus alone can stop the collapse of Satan's indeterminate wave of probability.
It is through his blood shed on the cross that our DNA has come to avoid the entropy paradox of information theory.

God is so smart and we will rejoice in His brilliance, Oh God, dear God, so perfect and wonderful and loving.

[Recusant]

...God is so smart and we will rejoice in His brilliance, Oh God, dear God, so perfect and wonderful and loving.

[Stevil]

I'm just feeling the love right now. It's so warm and fuzzy.

I don't know why I every worried about facts and stuff.
All you have to do is believe.....

Just pick a god, any god and believe, then spread the word.

I need a megaphone and a street corner, a place where lots of people walk to work so I can shout out to them how much my god loves them.
So much love, so little time.

[Stevil]

Actually, on second thought, a picture of a dead rotting corpse doesn't go well with the rest of the decor in my living room. I don't have a death room.
Maybe instead I'll go for Bhudda, he's a bit chubby but has a pleasant smile.

[Tank]

Since the observer collapses the indeterminate wave of probability, then consciousness has a hand in matter.  {snip}

This first unsupportered assertion appears to underpin your 'problem' with evolution, so shall we start here? Please explain, and support with evidence, your reasoning behind this assertion.

[Asmodean]

Since the observer collapses the indeterminate wave of probability, then consciousness has a hand in matter.  {snip}

This first unsupportered assertion appears to underpin your 'problem' with evolution, so shall we start here? Please explain, and support with evidence, your reasoning behind this assertion.

Yes. Can we start with this please?