Why are we here? - Islam

[Simonsimon]

Hi Guys,

I'll quickly introduce myself before I start spewing this incredible wall of text all over your monitors. I'm a real-life friend of iSok, whom I've been debating religion with for a while now. I'm currently also reading the koran and any and all information regarding religion in general. Like iSok, I'm also a university student currently living in the Netherlands. He told me over MSN he was on this forum, and after reading (err, plowing) through this thread I deem it interesting enough to post some stuff too  ) with him.

If you can keep this in mind while reading his posts, a lot of what he says will start to make some sense.

I'm an atheist for a lot of the reasons you cited in your first post. The big reason is a lack of proof -- indeed, the Judeo-Christian God even has evidence against his existence; like the problem of evil, for example, which I've been discussing in this thread.

Until you can not only give me proof of Allah's existence, but reasons why the apparent contradictions and blatant absurdities aren't so, then I have every reason to reject him.

What do you see as apparent contradictions and blatant absurdities in the Koran/Allah's existence? Absolute proof of allah's existence obviously doesn't exist so he can't give you that. iSok can only tell you what he sees as signs (proof), whether you see the same  things as proof is up to you. He hasn't been able to convince me yet, either :secret:[/quote]

This was a reaction to one example iSok put in. It was a pretty bad example so I understand why you posted this, but if you had instead posted why the example was bad, you would've added something to the discussion. I honestly think he doesn't/didn't understand the example he posted was bad.

What will you do if you find your world view is wrong?

I will probably never find that out.
But if I did, I'd probably live according to the same values as I do now.
I have nothing to lose.

This is pretty funny. Here's iSok telling people to be open minded..While he himself obviously isn't being open minded here.

Fair enough.

What will you do if you die and it turns out that there is an afterlife?

Seriously? I'd ask Allah to explain why he's such an arsehole. I really would. He has fucked this world over and everybody on it since its creation, apparently for his own amusement.

That's just rediculous He's only stating the reasons why he believes in God and the Koran. I might add that he hasn't done so in a very coherent way, then again it is pretty hard to do so with this material. He's not an imam.

Why not just enjoy the Koran as a work of fiction?  We all know there's no God and that the content of the Koran isn't true.  I just wonder if it's a bit pointless trying to persuade a muslim who thinks the book is brilliant that its claims aren't true.  What's the worst consequence of letting someone hold the view that something is true while not obtaining the proof that it is?  It's still a good book - or at least as good as the person who reads it out or chants it, and such things are a matter of opinion anyway.

Well, if that's your opinion, then theres really no point in having a discussion, is there? "We all know there's no God and that the content of the koran isn't true"? Err. We don't all know that. Please try to keep an open mind. Convincing iSok that his claims aren't true will be pretty hard, but I wonder what's harder, convincing him the koran isn't true, or convincing you they are? You're doing the exact same thing here. Really, this might come off as a bit offensive... I'm not trying to attack anyone here Just trying to make a point.

Are you really going to keep bringing up the videos I posted?

Also, are you not going to address the logical fallacy problem I pointed out?

Also also, like Existentialist said, this is not proof of divine origin.

You're right about the logical fallacy as far as I'm concerned. But do keep in mind he's trying to come up with reasons why HE believes in the Koran.

Also, I'd like to say to the people that said the bible / koran was boring to read, that these books are only boring if you weren't really serious about reading them with an open mind. In other words, to find some sort of meaning in them, without telling yourself that "this crap isn't real anyway and God doesn't exist".

Can I ask why an atheist needs to know anything about religion?

What, seriously now? You're saying that in a discussion about religion, you don't really need to know anything about religion? In other words, you don't need to know anything about the subject matter at hand because you're going to refute everything immediately anyway since you're an atheist? If that's the case, I don't understand what you're even doing here. You're not being open minded, nor are you going to take any discussion value inherent in this thread seriously. I hope you can change that.

I hope you don't mind if I put forward a third.  That despite all the proof you're putting forward, someone else holds a different position on the existence of God.  We shouldn't really need proof either way, if you think that what you believe is important, proof has no impact.

It's fine that we're all holding different positions on the existence of God and your last sentence is definitely correct. But you're not going into iSok's arguments much.

[Velma]

is this a debate about Islam?

Or a debate about what defines a debate?


Ls. your question about in what religious scripture that (embryology) is stated...well it is in the Qur'an (The scripture we have been talking about for hours..and hours)
You call yourself already an atheist, while you don't even know the most basic answers to religion.....

So far..in this almost 75 posts large topic, the only two objections I found against the existence of God.

- Lack of proof  --> I'm giving proof, but all the proof I give..people do not seem to read, or is it just me? All the proof I give is either coincidence or dumb interpretation.
  Are we really open minded here?

- Problem of evil   --> (I explained evil)  --> no one questioned it?

Ls, how can you reasonably follow a debate, if you don't have a clue about the Qur'an....you talk about 'scriptures?'

Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that so many of you closed all doors and convinced themselves that there is No God.
No one here has ever read the Qur'an... (Islam, second largest religion in the world)...but you call yourself atheists....I thought atheists were convinced by
evaluating every religion. To me it sounds more and more a hype from what I have seen here.


Or am I wrong?

Didn't you claim that the god of the christians is also the god of the muslims?  I spent years of my life searching for evidence of god and found nothing.  Quite a few atheists used to be believers, but lack of evidence of the existence of god and inherent contradictions in the claims of holy books and religions caused them to start questioning.  If you have evidence you think we have not considered, please present it; but know that quotes from the quran are not evidence unless you can show that it is actually written by a deity - and first you have to show there is a deity.

[iSok]

And who made it that way?

You'll make it that way, just like in this society, you are responsible for yourself.
He does not force you to do bad things, you do it yourself.
Stop blaming Him.

So, you simply have to believe in some morals?

Yes the morals, I posted are probably the basics of every society.
If you function in this society, you are already believing in them.

Which really ugly one?

You know that, and you condemd yourself for that, I already explained.

Why is it good to have free will? Why is it good to be an individual?

Robot Ls

And if we politely respond "no, thank you", we will go to Hell.

I don't know whether you go to Hell.
Maybe you have morals of such high esteem, that you will be send straight to heaven.
He created you so. Like parents can disicpline their children

...What.

That this stage of life is a part of creation, the creation and development of our soul.

Like I said before, I've never read the Koran. Passages? Verses? What specific text of the Koran describes how embryos mature?

It's not wise to deny something you've never heard off or understood.

A lot of us here do believe that there is no God -- no Judeo-Christian god, that is.

Same as the Islamic God, give yourself another chance by reading the Qur'an.

All three Abrahamic religions have the same basic core concept. I don't spend my time reading all the world's religious scripture. Give me a reason to read your specific holy book, and I will.

Because they DO NOT have the same concept..once again lack of knowledge....

[iSok]

It's a large read, but surely someone who thinks that I should read his holy book holds himself to the same standards.

Did you read it yourself?
Or are you posting it since it's a long article and it should makes sense.

if you have read it, please give a summary.

[Velma]

Can I ask why an atheist needs to know anything about religion?

Please Existent, you are not seriously meaning this.....this just shows how you decided to be an atheist....
May I ask your personal story, were you raised as an Atheist? or Religious? you can PM it.

I hope you don't mind if I put forward a third.  That despite all the proof you're putting forward, someone else holds a different position on the existence of God.  We shouldn't really need proof either way, if you think that what you believe is important, proof has no impact.

well, why do I think that there's a God?

- Well I don't need proof of the type I showed here.


-  It is whenever I pray, I am off this world.
   It's a certain spiritual feeling, I can't describe it, something you need to experience.

- Or when you read the Quran, every doubt in my heart is destroyed., it's almost if the Qur'an commands you to think
  and reflect.

- I used to care about materialistic objects, they are nice but not essential in life.
  There's a certain type of calmness in my heart, in my mind that I neither can't describe, this feeling is especially strong after prayer
  A feeling of peace.

- I can control myself far more than before(anger for example), my moral has grown in some way since I started practising.

- Not terrified of loss of loved ones in my life, the feeling that everything is going to be alright.

- I am more encouraged to achieve things in life and contribute things to society. I was lazy before, but now I try to use my time the best way possible.


Some of the things, why I think God exists.
And for people who do not have these feelings, there are many signs and proofs.
If you use your common sense and connect all the dots that will appear, you'll see the whole picture.

Atleast, that if you want God to exist.

I get those many of those same feelings after meditating - just sitting still and focusing on my breathing.  Feelings are not proof either.  I'm happy for you that you have found something that exerts a positive influence in your life, but the same thing has been claimed for all sorts of belief systems.

[iSok]

At Ls, I found the source of your article.

www.answering-islam.com  --> This is against Islam --> pro christianity

www.answering-christianity.com  --> This is against christianity --> pro islam.

I don't trust the content of this websites. Both made false claims in the past.
I'd rather trust Dr. Moore about this case than a priest who knows nothing about embryology.

So your source is at the very least doubtful.



My question is:

Do you people even want a God to exist?

[Velma]

Want has nothing to do with it.  We are simply asking for believers to provide evidence for their claims that deities exist - using something other than a circular argument.

[iSok]

Want has nothing to do with it.  We are simply asking for believers to provide evidence for their claims that deities exist - using something other than a circular argument.

Let me put it in a different way.
- Would you find it a good thing if a God existed?

[LegendarySandwich]

Hi Guys,

I'll quickly introduce myself before I start spewing this incredible wall of text all over your monitors. I'm a real-life friend of iSok, whom I've been debating religion with for a while now. I'm currently also reading the koran and any and all information regarding religion in general. Like iSok, I'm also a university student currently living in the Netherlands. He told me over MSN he was on this forum, and after reading (err, plowing) through this thread I deem it interesting enough to post some stuff too  ) with him.

And I do take him seriously, and I understand that he believes that the Koran is true.

If you can keep this in mind while reading his posts, a lot of what he says will start to make some sense.

I understand what he's saying.

I'm an atheist for a lot of the reasons you cited in your first post. The big reason is a lack of proof -- indeed, the Judeo-Christian God even has evidence against his existence; like the problem of evil, for example, which I've been discussing in this thread.

Until you can not only give me proof of Allah's existence, but reasons why the apparent contradictions and blatant absurdities aren't so, then I have every reason to reject him.

What do you see as apparent contradictions and blatant absurdities in the Koran/Allah's existence?

Mostly just the problems of evil, and the contradiction between traits. I haven't read the Koran -- only the Bible, so I can only use arguments against the general Judeo-Christian God.

Absolute proof of allah's existence obviously doesn't exist so he can't give you that.

That's not what I ask for anyways.

iSok can only tell you what he sees as signs (proof), whether you see the same  things as proof is up to you. He hasn't been able to convince me yet, either Allah gives people free will. Anything they do is something they're responsible for. You can't blame the god for the wrongdoings of people, even if people do these things in name of a god.

Why would Allah allow people to do wrongdoings?

Seemed to be a valid point at first, but he CAN point out why he believes the koran to be true by giving examples taken from the koran, can't he? He can't however, objectively prove to other people such as you that the koran is true in this way. That's exactly the point, only individually can you get 'proof' that whatever the Koran states is true, or that God exists. Would be pretty weird if there was some sort of objective proof that God existed, we wouldn't be having this argument in the first place He's only stating the reasons why he believes in God and the Koran. I might add that he hasn't done so in a very coherent way, then again it is pretty hard to do so with this material. He's not an imam.

He's trying to debate with us and use these proofs.

Also, I'd like to say to the people that said the bible / koran was boring to read, that these books are only boring if you weren't really serious about reading them with an open mind. In other words, to find some sort of meaning in them, without telling yourself that "this crap isn't real anyway and God doesn't exist".

No. Even when I was a Christian, I found the Bible boring.

[Simonsimon]

Want has nothing to do with it.  We are simply asking for believers to provide evidence for their claims that deities exist - using something other than a circular argument.

But are you open to God existing?

'Evidence' that god exists is probably only available on an individual basis. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument, see my first post.

[iSok]

ok the next argument.
A prophecy.

This verse is about the Pharao who went after Moses, when he drowned.


(10:90) And We led the Children of Israel across the sea. Then Pharaoh and his hosts pursued them in iniquity and transgression until Pharaoh cried out while he was drowning: 'I believe that there is no god but Allah in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am also one of those who submit to Allah.


(10:91) (Thereupon came the response): 'Now you believe, although you disobeyed earlier and were one of the mischief-makers.


(10:92) We shall now save your corpse that you may serve as a sign of warning for all posterity although many men are heedless of Our signs.


That Pharao was called  'Merenptah'.
http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/28/2805/D2COD00Z/posters/garrett-kenneth-mummy-of-merenptah-in-the-cairo-museum.jpg

[Velma]

Want has nothing to do with it.  We are simply asking for believers to provide evidence for their claims that deities exist - using something other than a circular argument.

Let me put it in a different way.
- Would you find it a good thing if a God existed?

Depends on which god you are talking about.  The god described by jews, christians, and muslims wouldn't even be a decent human being much less a good god.  Other gods described by other religions, it would depend on which one you were talking about.

[LegendarySandwich]

And who made it that way?

You'll make it that way, just like in this society, you are responsible for yourself.
He does not force you to do bad things, you do it yourself.
Stop blaming Him.

Yeah, I should really stop blaming the creator and start blaming the creation.

So, you simply have to believe in some morals?

Yes the morals, I posted are probably the basics of every society.
If you function in this society, you are already believing in them.

But I don't even have to follow them? I just have to believe in some words?

Anyone can say they believe in "justice", or "compassion", or "forgiveness". They are so vague as to almost everyone would claim to believe in them.

Which really ugly one?

You know that, and you condemd yourself for that, I already explained.

You mean, The Chinvat Bridge, as described in Zoastrianism?

Why is it good to have free will? Why is it good to be an individual?

Robot Ls

Why is it bad to be a robot?

And if we politely respond "no, thank you", we will go to Hell.

I don't know whether you go to Hell.
Maybe you have morals of such high esteem, that you will be send straight to heaven.
He created you so. Like parents can disicpline their children

My one moral principle is: "minimize pain and suffering, and maximize happiness and joy".

Like I said before, I've never read the Koran. Passages? Verses? What specific text of the Koran describes how embryos mature?

It's not wise to deny something you've never heard off or understood.

STOP DEFLECTING.
I've heard about Islam before. I understand the basics pretty well.

Have you read every single religious text that's available in the world? If you haven't, why not? It's not wise to deny something you've never heard of or understand.

A lot of us here do believe that there is no God -- no Judeo-Christian god, that is.

Same as the Islamic God, give yourself another chance by reading the Qur'an.

How does it differ from the Bible?

All three Abrahamic religions have the same basic core concept. I don't spend my time reading all the world's religious scripture. Give me a reason to read your specific holy book, and I will.

Because they DO NOT have the same concept..once again lack of knowledge....

You just said that the Christian god and the Islamic God are the same God.

[LegendarySandwich]

It's a large read, but surely someone who thinks that I should read his holy book holds himself to the same standards.

Did you read it yourself?
Or are you posting it since it's a long article and it should makes sense.

if you have read it, please give a summary.

Stop deflecting.

[iSok]

Next prophecy.

The promise to preserve the Qur'an

"We have revealed the Reminder and We have taken upon ourselves the duty of preserving it intact" (Al-Hijr 15:9)


The first original Qur'ans, consisted of about eight copies.
Two of those first copies from the seventh century can still be found.
One is in Turkey and the other is in Kazachstan I think.