Can an Atheist get into heaven

[AnimatedDirt]

I have just a quick question.  Did heaven exist before Jesus?  Where did all the people go before God sent Jesus to die so that we could get into heaven?  Hell can't have existed until Satan fell right?  Even if God has only been around for 6000 years...what was he doing for the first 4000 years?
If it sounds like I'm not making sense...that's the idea.

Perfectly logical question.  No reason to think you're not making sense.

Unfortunately that question is answered by two schools of thought (that I know of) in Christianity.  I'll give you the quick answer and my take on the one side.  Hell is non-existent until the end of time...that being the time when Christ comes the second time (you'd have to have some knowledge of biblical eschatology...actually the "third" time) This is when all will be raised to face judgement (all the lost people) and when they will be thrown into hell to die the second death, the death to be feared.  Otherwise everyone that has died from the time of Adam until the 2nd coming are dead and in their graves...both saved and the unsaved.  There are a few exceptions as detailed out in the Bible, but that's not really relevant here.  This first is where my belief is.

The other school of thought is that there is 'Abraham's Busom' where the saved dead are/were kept prior to Jesus' death/payment for sin.  After His death they were released into heaven.  This then says that from Jesus' death on, every saved person that dies goes immediately to heaven and the unsaved into hell or a "limbo" of sorts awaiting judgement.  This latter belief relies on the belief that a person doesn't really die at death, but that their "immortal" soul lives on.  I may not have this thought perfectly layed out, but it should do.  I am not of this latter belief and therefore interpret that the dead are dead and "know nothing" and remain in their graves returning to dust as they await the resurrection day when Christ returns the second time.

Heaven did exist "prior to Jesus", assuming you mean prior to His human incarnation.
There is so much that would need to be mentioned to properly "indoctrinate" you on this, but I think this will suffice to answer your question.

[Tanker]

What limits would those be?

I cannot assume what limits He gives or has for Himself outside of our dimension, but the same limits I put on myself that I don't go out and start a killing spree of family, friends and strangers.  I'm not the murdering type.  The analogy ends there.

In no way am I an expert in debate on these matters, but I can give you my opinion/belief.  Do I have absolute proof?  No, if I did, you wouldn't be an Atheist.  

Where in the Bible does it say he has put limit's on himself? Where does it say he's in an "outside" dimension, whatever that is? Acording to the Bible god has not always made this limitation of himself choosing not to do something is not the same as not being able to. There is no grey in the word omnipotent either you are all poweful or you aren't. Why would an all seeing being need to limit himself shouldn't he know all outcomes for all situations? Wouln't he then always choose the correct option.

I'm not asking for proof Im asking for why YOU say and believe these things? Faith is all well and good but only crazy people use faith as a catch all answer. "I can't prove it, but I know I was obducted by aliens" "I hear a voice in my head it must be god...he wants me to kill people" "I have no reason to believe that Nigerian prince but I take it faith that people are generaly good and he wants to give me millions" You must have reasons beyond faith for what you have been saying what are they?

[DropLogic]

I have just a quick question.  Did heaven exist before Jesus?  Where did all the people go before God sent Jesus to die so that we could get into heaven?  Hell can't have existed until Satan fell right?  Even if God has only been around for 6000 years...what was he doing for the first 4000 years?
If it sounds like I'm not making sense...that's the idea.

Unfortunately that question is answered by two schools of thought (that I know of) in Christianity.  I'll give you the quick answer and my take on the one side.  Hell is non-existent until the end of time...that being the time when Christ comes the second time (you'd have to have some knowledge of biblical eschatology...actually the "third" time) This is when all will be raised to face judgement (all the lost people) and when they will be thrown into hell to die the second death, the death to be feared.  Otherwise everyone that has died from the time of Adam until the 2nd coming are dead and in their graves...both saved and the unsaved.  There are a few exceptions as detailed out in the Bible, but that's not really relevant here.  This first is where my belief is.

So there's a waiting room?

The other school of thought is that there is 'Abraham's Busom' where the saved dead are/were kept prior to Jesus' death/payment for sin.  After His death they were released into heaven.  This then says that from Jesus' death on, every saved person that dies goes immediately to heaven and the unsaved into hell or a "limbo" of sorts awaiting judgement.  This latter belief relies on the belief that a person doesn't really die at death, but that their "immortal" soul lives on.  I may not have this thought perfectly layed out, but it should do.  I am not of this latter belief and therefore interpret that the dead are dead and "know nothing" and remain in their graves returning to dust as they await the resurrection day when Christ returns the second time.

Heaven did exist "prior to Jesus", assuming you mean prior to His human incarnation.
There is so much that would need to be mentioned to properly "indoctrinate" you on this, but I think this will suffice to answer your question.

You really believe everything you just wrote don't you.
You lay that all out as if you have seen it with your own eyes.
I believe you are the indoctrinated one.

[Davin]

Something supernatural?  Supernatural from God would require belief that God exists!  Simply seeing a limb grow back would convince you?  It would take natural disasters and seeing "innocent" non-Christians dying left and right for you to "believe" in God?  I won't delve into this unless you can give me a concrete need or answer you would need in order to be convinced by the evidence that God exists. God already, in the Bible, says the rocks will cry out...does this not point to order, does the complexity of the cell not speak of how much chance it takes to make one cell? How about the fact that is not disputed by science...that being if gravity was either too strong or too weak by .0000000000000001 (more zeros, but I can't remember exactly the number) that the universe would not exist? The enormous complexity of life is not evidence...evidence?  I'm not here to argue for ID, but I do believe ID is evidence based on the probabilities.

Rocks crying only points to crying rocks. The enormous complexity of life is evidence... evidence for evolution. Talking about evidence for god, then bringing up gravity, cells or the diversity of life... is a bit like saying that you can bend a spoon with your psychic powers, then using your hands:[youtube:4xvlc4o1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUxWdIQVT_c[/youtube:4xvlc4o1]

But that's another thread topic probably already in existence.  I have no proof of this, but the existence of this forum, thus the weight of probability is that I can assume so with great confidence.

Well, like the evidence that you claim exists, you could provide a link to it.

[AnimatedDirt]

Where in the Bible does it say he has put limit's on himself? Where does it say he's in an "outside" dimension, whatever that is? Acording to the Bible god has not always made this limitation of himself choosing not to do something is not the same as not being able to. There is no grey in the word omnipotent either you are all poweful or you aren't. Why would an all seeing being need to limit himself shouldn't he know all outcomes for all situations? Wouln't he then always choose the correct option.

I'm not asking for proof Im asking for why YOU say and believe these things? Faith is all well and good but only crazy people use faith as a catch all answer. "I can't prove it, but I know I was obducted by aliens" "I hear a voice in my head it must be god...he wants me to kill people" "I have no reason to believe that Nigerian prince but I take it faith that people are generaly good and he wants to give me millions" You must have reasons beyond faith for what you have been saying what are they?

First of all we must establish where you and I draw wisdom and understanding.  If I'm looking for scientific understanding and understanding of philosophy, then I look to works by man, however if I look for ultimate understanding (which doesn't necessarily need to include all scientific knowledge nor philosophical understanding) then I look to a collection of historical books put together and called the Bible.

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

Clearly God has set a limit here.  If He is truly Righeous, He cannot lie.  A limit of sorts, if you will.  Similar to the analogy about murdering at will above.

By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place; by his knowledge the deeps were divided, and the clouds let drop the dew.

My son, preserve sound judgment and discernment, do not let them out of your sight; they will be life for you, an ornament to grace your neck. Then you will go on your way in safety, and your foot will not stumble; when you lie down, you will not be afraid; when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet.  Have no fear of sudden disaster or of the ruin that overtakes the wicked,for the LORD will be your confidence and will keep your foot from being snared.

Why does anyone believe what they believe?  Do you have perfect understanding of all knowledge therefore believing there is no God?  Do you base your belief on proof or evidence?  My belief is certainly, to some extent, a product of my environment, however as an adult having searched my own heart cling to the hope in Christ and the hereafter.  I believe it because to believe otherwise is to believe in nothing.  To believe that this mind that thinks, ponders, reasons, searches is the product of matter time and chance?  It's an old and tired saying, but "belief" in that is surely beyond comprehension and understanding...to the point of rediculous considering the many coincidences of our existence.  Don't you think?  Yet we are.  To have absolute proof of God is to remove choice.  Once again I repeat, "I stand at the door and knock..."  God is there, but one has to open the door and let Him in for His wonders to be known or the meager answers we have be enough for us to trust.

I'm not asking for proof Im asking for why YOU say and believe these things?

There you have it.

[AnimatedDirt]

Something supernatural?  Supernatural from God would require belief that God exists!  Simply seeing a limb grow back would convince you?  It would take natural disasters and seeing "innocent" non-Christians dying left and right for you to "believe" in God?  I won't delve into this unless you can give me a concrete need or answer you would need in order to be convinced by the evidence that God exists. God already, in the Bible, says the rocks will cry out...does this not point to order, does the complexity of the cell not speak of how much chance it takes to make one cell? How about the fact that is not disputed by science...that being if gravity was either too strong or too weak by .0000000000000001 (more zeros, but I can't remember exactly the number) that the universe would not exist? The enormous complexity of life is not evidence...evidence?  I'm not here to argue for ID, but I do believe ID is evidence based on the probabilities.

Rocks crying only points to crying rocks. The enormous complexity of life is evidence... evidence for evolution. Talking about evidence for god, then bringing up gravity, cells or the diversity of life... is a bit like saying that you can bend a spoon with your psychic powers, then using your hands

Who's arguing against evolution?  Again, we're getting into too many topics within this one about whether an Atheist can be saved/in heaven or not.

But that's another thread topic probably already in existence.  I have no proof of this, but the existence of this forum, thus the weight of probability is that I can assume so with great confidence.

Well, like the evidence that you claim exists, you could provide a link to it.

That would be robbing you of your own ability to search out your own needs.  This thread is about Atheists in heaven.

[AnimatedDirt]

So there's a waiting room?

If you understood what I wrote, the "waiting room" is the earth...6ft underground in a coffin or otherwise simply dead.  For the latter "waiting room", I suppose you'd have to ask someone of that belief or wait for someone to answer that for you.

You really believe everything you just wrote don't you.
You lay that all out as if you have seen it with your own eyes.
I believe you are the indoctrinated one.

Much like your indoctrination in Atheism, I suppose.

[Davin]

Rocks crying only points to crying rocks. The enormous complexity of life is evidence... evidence for evolution. Talking about evidence for god, then bringing up gravity, cells or the diversity of life... is a bit like saying that you can bend a spoon with your psychic powers, then using your hands

Who's arguing against evolution?  Again, we're getting into too many topics within this one about whether an Atheist can be saved/in heaven or not.

I have no idea who's arguing against evolution, is there a reason that you're asking this question? It seems to me that there are two appropriate kinds of actions that you could have taken in order to avoid going off tangent: provide the evidence that supports your positive claims or admit to not having any evidence.

But that's another thread topic probably already in existence.  I have no proof of this, but the existence of this forum, thus the weight of probability is that I can assume so with great confidence.

Well, like the evidence that you claim exists, you could provide a link to it.

That would be robbing you of your own ability to search out your own needs.

I said you could, you choose not to, I'll remember this sentiment for later use.

This thread is about Atheists in heaven.

And like every positive claim, it requires evidence to support it.

[pinkocommie]

So then assuming an Atheist remains an Atheist, my conclusion is that neither Atheist nor Agnostics can get into heaven.

I agree.  So, can certain religious people (you know who you are!) PLEASE stop talking about heaven as if it's meant for specifically good, decent people?  It's an (in my opinion fake impossible make believe) eternal after party meant for those who share similar beliefs, that's all.

And you know what?  Those parties are usually really lame.  So I don't even feel bad for not being invited.  I'm just tired of being told it has anything to do with how nice or good a person I am.

[AnimatedDirt]

Rocks crying only points to crying rocks. The enormous complexity of life is evidence... evidence for evolution. Talking about evidence for god, then bringing up gravity, cells or the diversity of life... is a bit like saying that you can bend a spoon with your psychic powers, then using your hands

Who's arguing against evolution?  Again, we're getting into too many topics within this one about whether an Atheist can be saved/in heaven or not.

I have no idea who's arguing against evolution, is there a reason that you're asking this question? It seems to me that there are two appropriate kinds of actions that you could have taken in order to avoid going off tangent: provide the evidence that supports your positive claims or admit to not having any evidence.

Which claim?  Too many topics here.

This thread is about Atheists in heaven.

And like every positive claim, it requires evidence to support it.

You're right...there is evidence of many topics, however to stick with the topic heading...

agree. So, can certain religious people (you know who you are!) PLEASE stop talking about heaven as if it's meant for specifically good, decent people? It's an (in my opinion fake impossible make believe) eternal after party meant for those who share similar beliefs, that's all.

It's meant for those that know they are not worthy and cling to that which is.

And you know what? Those parties are usually really lame. So I don't even feel bad for not being invited. I'm just tired of being told it has anything to do with how nice or good a person I am.

They are wrong or you're not hearing correctly.  It's not how nice or good you are, it's in whom you place your trust/faith/belief.

[DropLogic]

Much like your indoctrination in Atheism, I suppose.

So many people seem to think that Atheism is a belief system or religion.  I have been an atheist for my entire life.  My parents were both religious, and sent me to Sunday school.  Not once did I buy the god myth.  I equated god to santa, or the tooth fairy.  And that's really all god is...santa for adults.  
You are an atheist too when it comes to the rest of the religions that have ever been.  I know it is overused...but it's beautiful in it's simplicity: We simply go one god further.

[AnimatedDirt]

Much like your indoctrination in Atheism, I suppose.

So many people seem to think that Atheism is a belief system or religion.  I have been an atheist for my entire life.  My parents were both religious, and sent me to Sunday school.  Not once did I buy the god myth.  I equated god to santa, or the tooth fairy.  And that's really all god is...santa for adults.  
You are an atheist too when it comes to the rest of the religions that have ever been.  I know it is overused...but it's beautiful in it's simplicity: We simply go one god further.

You presume you had understanding of 'god' the moment you exited the womb...but then again such is the logic of us all.

You're right though, I am an Atheist to all other gods.  

[AnimatedDirt]

This thread is about Atheists in heaven.

And like every positive claim, it requires evidence to support it.

I figured you knew the forum well since you've been here for 500+ posts.  If you want a link, here is one possible place.

[DropLogic]

You presume you had understanding of 'god' the moment you exited the womb...but then again such is the logic of us all.

You're right though, I am an Atheist to all other gods.  

And you presume still, that you have an understanding of god (which is impossible by your rules)...at least the god defined by the parameters of your sect of christianity.
Had my parents forced their religion upon me...then certainly, I might have been a Christian even to this day.  However, they asked me what I thought.  
You might argue that they could do this with any other topic.  If I didn't agree that plants make oxygen for us to breath, they could easily show me the error of my ways, and teach me about this fact.
You can't argue the case for god with "it is because it is".  That's called circular reasoning.  

Sorry to derail the thread.  Whether or not atheists can get into heaven doesn't matter to an atheist at all, and it shouldn't to you.

[AnimatedDirt]

You presume you had understanding of 'god' the moment you exited the womb...but then again such is the logic of us all.

You're right though, I am an Atheist to all other gods.  

And you presume still, that you have an understanding of god (which is impossible by your rules)...at least the god defined by the parameters of your sect of christianity.
Had my parents forced their religion upon me...then certainly, I might have been a Christian even to this day.  However, they asked me what I thought.  
You might argue that they could do this with any other topic.  If I didn't agree that plants make oxygen for us to breath, they could easily show me the error of my ways, and teach me about this fact.
You can't argue the case for god with "it is because it is".  That's called circular reasoning.  

Sorry to derail the thread.  Whether or not atheists can get into heaven doesn't matter to an atheist at all, and it shouldn't to you.

You're continual questions in this topic give evidence otherwise or could easily be construed as such.  The question only matters to me insomuch as it may answer some questions Atheists have on Christianity.  No more, no less.  When did I use the "it is because it is" reasoning?  There's at least one Atheist asking questions on the matter and unless that person is done, then I suppose you're not all together correct.  The only understanding of God, the Christian God, I have is simply that which we are told biblically.  "The heaven's declare..."  So one can assume that God can be known, or aspects of Him, in nature as well as other points brought up biblically.