Can an Atheist get into heaven

[madness]

then go around killing babies (which of course is condoned in the Bible)?

That is debatable, but not for this thread.

Yeah, that was a little snarky.

So I guess I don't get to go to heaven no matter what since I was never saved.  I hadn't heard of OSAS.  Interesting concept.  A lot of atheists could go to heaven then - especially if they live as "good" people after renouncing Christ.

[Thumpalumpacus]

You were asking about my God weren't you?

The Christian god has many more qualities posited than simple gnosis.

[Thumpalumpacus]

However, given that very few people die the moment after they confess faith/belief in Christ as Lord and Savior, their life then must show evidence of that true faith/belief.  

Let me get this straight:  We humans, of limited knowledge, are damned to hell because we ask for evidence; but your god, whom you claim to be omniscient, needs evidence of our faith?

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this line of argument?

What omniscient being would need evidence for anything?  He already knows everything.

[AnimatedDirt]

So I guess I don't get to go to heaven no matter what since I was never saved.  I hadn't heard of OSAS.  Interesting concept.  A lot of atheists could go to heaven then - especially if they live as "good" people after renouncing Christ.

Yes, OSAS is an interesting topic.  As I've mentioned, there are two schools of thought for the concept.  It is my belief that one can lose/reject their place with God by simple choice or by the absense of the "works" that provide evidence of true faith/belief.  One can be bold enough to claim salvation, but one cannot claim any confidence in having "worked" enough for salvation.  It is the works that prove the faith, but it is the faith alone that saves.  How does one explain the apparent paradox?  It's difficult.  Maybe it's much like a marriage where both confess true love for each other and the love is freely and abundantly shone, but as time goes on, one may begin to lose that same love and so while the love may still be shone, the love is no longer from the heart, then the love shone dwindles and soon may be lost, but just as love is sometimes sparked back into place, so the believer is able to be sparked back into his/her faith.  If the spark never returns, then the love that binds is lost and so brings in divorce.

So then assuming an Atheist remains an Atheist, my conclusion is that neither Atheist nor Agnostics can get into heaven.

The Christian god has many more qualities posited than simple gnosis.

True, but to have the knowledge the Atheist seems to require for belief is the kind of knowledge only God has.  None of us have absolute truth or knowledge and base our beliefs on our own experiences, limited knowledge, and environment.  All of which are limited.

If people of 1000 years back in history had been given the knowledge of today...what do you think they would've thought of it.  Man on the moon?  Impossible.  Without explanation, even knowledge is sometimes useless.

[AnimatedDirt]

However, given that very few people die the moment after they confess faith/belief in Christ as Lord and Savior, their life then must show evidence of that true faith/belief.  

Let me get this straight:  We humans, of limited knowledge, are damned to hell because we ask for evidence; but your god, whom you claim to be omniscient, needs evidence of our faith?

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this line of argument?

What omniscient being would need evidence for anything?  He already knows everything.

Let's say you're a member of a jury in a courtroom.  Little Johnny is brought in accused of murder.  The lawyers make their opening statements and then the judge says, "Well since I have the proof that Little Johnny is guilty, I hereby pronounce guilt and sentence Little Johnny to..." and drops the gavel.  NEXT!

What would you say, think and/or do?

[Sophus]

However, given that very few people die the moment after they confess faith/belief in Christ as Lord and Savior, their life then must show evidence of that true faith/belief.  

Let me get this straight:  We humans, of limited knowledge, are damned to hell because we ask for evidence; but your god, whom you claim to be omniscient, needs evidence of our faith?

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this line of argument?

What omniscient being would need evidence for anything?  He already knows everything.

Let's say you're a member of a jury in a courtroom.  Little Johnny is brought in accused of murder.  The lawyers make their opening statements and then the judge says, "Well since I have the proof that Little Johnny is guilty, I hereby pronounce guilt and sentence Little Johnny to..." and drops the gavel.  NEXT!

What would you say, think and/or do?

 That analogy would only make sense if the judge was omniscient.

[AnimatedDirt]

 That analogy would only make sense if the judge was omniscient.

Would it?  Would the word of one without proof be enough for you?

[Davin]

True, but to have the knowledge the Atheist seems to require for belief is the kind of knowledge only God has.  None of us have absolute truth or knowledge and base our beliefs on our own experiences, limited knowledge, and environment.  All of which are limited.

If people of 1000 years back in history had been given the knowledge of today...what do you think they would've thought of it.  Man on the moon?  Impossible.  Without explanation, even knowledge is sometimes useless.

Not absolute knowledge, just some rational evidence.

I don't believe in gravity because I have absolute knowledge of gravity, I believe in gravity because of the evidence for it. Surely another thing that is supposed to not only have created the universe but came down and talked to people and performs miracles would have something. Maybe that statistically Christians die less in natural disasters (they don't), that at least one person had a limb grow back (none have) or something else that shows even at least that there is something super natural.

[DropLogic]

I think a more realistic question is, Can an Atheist get into office?
Much like heaven...the answer is: probably not.

[AnimatedDirt]

Not absolute knowledge, just some rational evidence.

I don't believe in gravity because I have absolute knowledge of gravity, I believe in gravity because of the evidence for it. Surely another thing that is supposed to not only have created the universe but came down and talked to people and performs miracles would have something. Maybe that statistically Christians die less in natural disasters (they don't), that at least one person had a limb grow back (none have) or something else that shows even at least that there is something super natural.

This is going to be difficult..."debating" two different themes here.  Proof of God and whether Atheists can go to heaven.

Something supernatural?  Supernatural from God would require belief that God exists!  Simply seeing a limb grow back would convince you?  It would take natural disasters and seeing "innocent" non-Christians dying left and right for you to "believe" in God?  I won't delve into this unless you can give me a concrete need or answer you would need in order to be convinced by the evidence that God exists.  God already, in the Bible, says the rocks will cry out...does this not point to order, does the complexity of the cell not speak of how much chance it takes to make one cell?  How about the fact that is not disputed by science...that being if gravity was either too strong or too weak by .0000000000000001 (more zeros, but I can't remember exactly the number) that the universe would not exist?  The enormous complexity of life is not evidence...evidence?  I'm not here to argue for ID, but I do believe ID is evidence based on the probabilities.

But that's another thread topic probably already in existence.  I have no proof of this, but the existence of this forum, thus the weight of probability is that I can assume so with great confidence.

[AnimatedDirt]

I think a more realistic question is, Can an Atheist get into office?
Much like heaven...the answer is: probably not.

As odd as it may seem, I would much rather have an Atheist as president.  One willing to uphold the Constitution.

[Asmodean]

I think a more realistic question is, Can an Atheist get into office?
Much like heaven...the answer is: probably not.

As odd as it may seem, I would much rather have an Atheist as president.  One willing to uphold the Constitution.
.
.

How about just settling for a good president? One that could start turning your country into something to look up to rather than sneer at..? There is some potential in he United States. That you don't use it, pretty much lands you in the exact same pile of dirt as Russia's been trying to get out of for the past two decades... And they still have at least as many decades to go for end-user level results.

[AnimatedDirt]

I think a more realistic question is, Can an Atheist get into office?
Much like heaven...the answer is: probably not.

As odd as it may seem, I would much rather have an Atheist as president.  One willing to uphold the Constitution.

How about just settling for a good president? One that could start turning your country into something to look up to rather than sneer at..? There is some potential in he United States. That you don't use it, pretty much lands you in the exact same pile of dirt as Russia's been trying to get out of for the past two decades... And they still have at least as many decades to go for end-user level results.

I guess I side-tracked the thread topic with my comment.  Apologies to all.  You're right, Asmodean.  I would like a good one.

[AnimatedDirt]

My biggest problem with the whole thing is that Jac is saying I'm going to heaven, but with his views, that would be more of a punishment than hell.

This is just the point I was making that Christ is a gentleman and does not force anyone to go against their will.  If a person chooses to not be/go with Christ, then even if they did at one point put faith in Christ, their current will is to deny Christ and Christ will honor that choice.  PoopShoot, if you don't want to be, you will not be forced.  It's your choice afterall.

[DropLogic]

I have just a quick question.  Did heaven exist before Jesus?  Where did all the people go before God sent Jesus to die so that we could get into heaven?  Hell can't have existed until Satan fell right?  Even if God has only been around for 6000 years...what was he doing for the first 4000 years?
If it sounds like I'm not making sense...that's the idea.