Israel

[dgmort19]

Hello all. This fine Thanksgiving I spent several hours debating religion with approximately 7 family members. It was exhausting and fruitless, though there was one claim against which I was unable to form an argument, simply because it lies outside my range of knowledge.

The claim in question was that Israel's history, as well as the history of Jews and the death of Christ, were predicted by biblical sources. For instance, according to my uncle, the precise manner of Jesus's crucifixion was noted years previous to his death. The torture, spear in the side, etc.

Other claims included:

"It was predicted that Israel would be the focus of world attention"

"It was predicted that Israel would be razed to the ground, conquered, etc."

Things of this nature. I invite those of you with knowledge in this arena to enlighten me, if you would.

[SSY]

When it comes to predicting the precise nature of Christ's death, since both the prediction, and the supposed fulfilment were written thousands of years ago, it is very difficult to establish the veracity of the prediction. For example, the prediction may have been written after, the prediction may have been selected from a great number of predictions made before his death, the account of his death could have been altered to fit with the prediction before it, it could all be cynically fabricated without a grain of truth in it at all.

As to the ones about Israel, I would need to see the exact prophecy, though having seen arguments of a similar ilk before, I recall there were many predictions in the same tract, which were either inaccurate or completely wrong (this very low hit rate when looking at the bible holistically, is another thing to consider). Perhaps my favourite part of the Israel argument, is noting that the prophecy itself, could effect it's own outcome, as the creation of Israel was an entirely human affair, and humans are of course susceptible to influence from all sorts of sources.

[Thumpalumpacus]

You could always ask them why the US isn't mentioned in the Bible, despite the fact that it has the largest population of Jews in the world.

[Inevitable Droid]

You could always ask them why the US isn't mentioned in the Bible, despite the fact that it has the largest population of Jews in the world.

Christians might point to Revelations 12:14 - "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." (King James Version)

Christians could argue that the eagle symbolizes the United States, and the woman, Jews.  Anti-semites would be interested in the fact that the wings of the eagle were given to the woman; I.e, the Jews would take over the country! Oh no!  The Protocols of Zion!  

The bible can be made to support any side of any argument a Christian wants it to support.

[Asmodean]

Christians could argue that the eagle symbolizes the United States

The eagle..? A symbol of the USA..?  :crazy:[/quote]
Although the real anti-semites would probably have little against the vast majority of America jews... What with them not being semitic people.

The bible can be made to support any side of any argument a Christian wants it to support.

Precisely.

They read into verses whatever is convenient at the time.

[Gawen]

There are four requirements for prophecies:
1) The prophecy must be specific, like applying a date.
2) The prophecy must be made before the prophesied event
3) The prophecy must be fulfilled and must not appear in the same book as a text containing false prophecies, eg., Ezekiel: 26 Tyre will be completely destroyed. This is a false prophecy, since Tyre was still standing centuries later when Alexander the Great came through.
4) The prophecy must not be something which could plausibly be attributed to a guess.

...the precise manner of Jesus's crucifixion was noted years previous to his death. The torture, spear in the side, etc.

First, the Gospels can't get his birth straight, let alone his death. Anyway...
Matthew 26:14-15 says Judas was paid thirty pieces of silver as payment for his betrayal. Matthew 27:9-10 claims that this is done to fulfill a prophecy of Jeremiah. The quoted verse appears nowhere in the book of Jeremiah. There is a verse which is quite similar in the book of Zechariah, but there Zechariah is speaking about himself and no betrayal is involved.

There are several OT verses taken to refer to Jesus's crucifixion: Psalms 22:16, Zechariah 12:10, and Zechariah 13:6 are examples. Psalms 22:16: "For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me; they pierced my hands and my feet." This is a psalm of David which gives absolutely no clue of prophecy and describes the speaker being hunted down and killed...not crucified. At any rate, the word "pierced" is a wrong translation.  "Ariy," which means "lion," is a more accurate translation - "like a lion they are gnawing at my hands and feet." would be more correct.

Zechariah 13:5-6: "these wounds between your arms,". These words are spoken by one who claims not to be a prophet and to have been sold as a slave in his youth. Wounds between arms are not characteristic of crucifixion, and Jesus was neither a slave and claimed not to be a prophet.

John 19:23-24 and Psalms 22:18 cannot be reconciled as prophetic because Psalms 22:18 gives no indication of being a prophecy.

Psalms 69:21 speaks repeatedly of flood waters and gives no clue of being either prophetic or of applying to Jesus.

Psalms 34:20: "He keeps all his bones; not one of them is broken," vs. John 19:32-36 cannot be reconciled as prophetic and Psalm's 34:20 does not name Jesus. The authors of John are trying to represent Jesus as a sacrifice, correspondingly to the paschal lamb. A requirement of the paschal lamb is that none of its bones be broken (Exodus 12:46, Numbers 9:12). But the analogy fails: a paschal lamb was not for the atonement of sin, and Jewish sacrifices were required to be completely without blemish, sore, or injury (Leviticus 22:20-25) while Jesus was scourged and mutilated (John 19:1)

Do some research...like...failed bible prophecies or something like that.