Making Argument for God Readable

[deekayfry]

Before everyone draws their knives, guns, Sherman war tanks and hydrogen ICBM, please read carefully as to the purpose of this topic.

I am posting this here to perhaps help the uninitiated to the Jac's post.  That topic is tough to read.   As I have said within that topic, the 21 points is extremely difficult to read and understand.  I quipped that I wanted to see it plain English.  So I spent two nights picking through point by point and revising nearly a dozen times.  I did this through still 84 hour weeks without a day off, and a recent very sour disappointment in obtaining new employment.  Much to the chagrin of my spouse, I did this to help cope with the major set-back.

Regardless, having read more new posts I am actually frightened to post a converted form of the 21 points because particular words that are only a few letters long are dissected to nth degree.  I have taken some of those very important words out and took some liberties in defining them while rewording them.

Keep in mind the rewording is an attempt to lift the spirit of the 21 points rather than rewording it as semantically equivalent as possible.  So in some places replaced words have a differing words for the same words within the original English text (translation to translation to translation go figure, right?)

I also tried to keep to the pleasant cadence of the original.  The original is rather poetic and musical, but it is still hard to discern when I read it.

Disclaimer: the conversion is by no means an endorsement of the doctrine or an acceptance of the belief behind.  Look at my world view.  The conversion was to simply make Subsistence Existence more understandable to me, myself, and I.  I make no warranties for anyone whose brain rapidly implode from shear academic offense.

Jac's, of Chris rather, man, it is a pleasure and honor to see what you have brought to the philosophy board.  Yes, we disagree.  However, your post has taught me more in two days than I would have ever learned in a course on philosophy in college, more likely an entire major's worth of courses.  I have come to see the beauty behind our arguments and appreciate the pleasure it brings out even though we vehemently disagree.

Now I did say to keep the weapons close, but that was for reading the introduction, but shit let it fly when you read what I put up.  Revise, suggest, criticize, or send me to ban-donia.  Hell attack me personally.  I don't mind.  In general, I just feel that simplification makes complexity more readily learned and understood.

[deekayfry]

The Original

1.Being is an accidental property of efficiently caused causes (although it is accidental in the unique sense of being prior to both essence and all other accidents).
2. All essences receive accidental properties through efficient causality.
3. Therefore, all essences receive their being through efficient causality.
4. Essences that have no being cannot be efficient causes.
5. Therefore, no essence can be its own efficient cause and must receive its being efficiently by from an external agent.
6. There cannot be an infinite regress of essentially ordered efficiently caused beings.
7. Therefore, for any series of essentially ordered efficiently caused beings, there must be a first causal being.
8. A first causal being cannot receive its being from outside itself.
9. Therefore, there must be a being which does not receive its being through efficient causality, but for which being is its essence. Being which exists in itself is called subsistent existence.
10. A first causal being is the primary efficient cause of all essentially ordered efficiently caused beings.
11. Therefore, subsistent existence is the primary efficient cause of all essentially ordered efficiently caused beings.
12. All non-subsistent being is part of an essentially ordered efficiently causal chain of being.
13. Therefore, subsistent existence is the primary efficient cause of all things.
14. All perfections must have an efficient cause.
15. Therefore, subsistent existence is the primary efficient cause of all perfections.
16. The effect of any efficient cause pre-exists virtually in the efficient cause.
17. Therefore, perfections exist virtually in subsistent existence.
18. A perfection is obtained in being.
19. Therefore, all perfections obtain in subsistent existence.
20. A being which obtains all perfections is, by definition, God.
21. Therefore, God exists.

The Revision

1. Life  is a random result of the best designed creative process.
(Although it is random, it is unique since it occurs prior to receiving its [spiritual and material] characteristics and in addition it is unique because it occurs before all other random events).
2. All [spiritual and material] characteristics acquire its randomness through the best designed creative process.
3. Therefore, all [spiritual and material] characteristics receive their Living Force through the best designed creative process.
4. [Spiritual and material] characteristics, without a Living Force cannot be [from] the best designed creation
5. Therefore no [spiritual and material] characteristics can create itself, and it must receive its best designed Living Force from an Outside Source.
6. There cannot be an endless reduction of the best designed superior living entities to inferior living entities
7. Therefore, for any group of superior to inferior best designed living entities, there must be a First Living Creator
8. A First Living Creator is the first best designed creation of all groups of superior to inferior living entities.
9. Therefore, there must be a Living Force, that did not receive life through the best designed creative  process.
However, this life form does contain its own [spiritual and material] characteristics.  
Life which exist within itself is defined Subsistence Existence [hereafter called Self Sustained Life for clarity]
10. A First Living Creator is the first best designed creation [to] all groups of superior to inferior living entities.
11.Therefore, Self Sustaining Life is the first best designed creation of all groups of superior to inferior living entities
12.All Non-self sustaining Life is a part of a group of superior to inferior best designed living entities with the creative structure of living entities
13.Therefore, Self-sustaining Life, is the first best designed creation of everything
14.Everything that is perfect must [also] be the best designed creation
15. Therefore, Self-sustaining Life is the first best designed creation from every thing that is perfect
16. The result of the best defined creation exists previously [as an imagination] prior to [the] best designed creation
17. Therefore, perfection exists [as an imagination] within Self Sustaining Life
18. Perfection is achieved within the Living Force
19. Therefore, everything that is perfect is achieved within Self Sustaining Life
20. A creation which achieves everything that is perfect, is by definition, God [or a Divine Being, my interpretation]
21. Ergo,  [a Diving Being, popularly termed], God exists

Well, time for me to run and hide.

[KDbeads]

Crap.... he's thinking again  

[TheWilliam]

maybe it's over my head,

I really don't get it.

[The Magic Pudding]

maybe it's over my head,

I really don't get it.

I think that is the intention.
Overly complex nonsense is fed to people, they are supposed to think the person delivering it is much smarter than them, so their words should just be accepted.

Maybe you have to have a certain personality to go for this sort of thing.
I enjoy Star Trek, but I wouldn't go to a Trekie convention, that would be weird.
Harmlessly weird though, not scary weird like church.

[KDbeads]

maybe it's over my head,

I really don't get it.

Trust me, I don't either and I live with him  :hide:

[SSY]

When I first saw the original, my instinctive reaction was " For someone who believes in divine simplicity, this seems awful complicated"

I don't think I have ever seen an argument like that with even half the points.

[wildfire_emissary]

Hmm.. In other words, Hume was right.

[tymygy]

I think the main thing these, uhm, conclusions? are missing is proof.

How does one prove perfection? And existing doesn't mean you have to come from something that exists.

Who says perfection even exists? How does one define perfection?

Please correct me if I'm reading all of these wrong, but I don't see evidence to a conclusion that god must exist.

[Asmodean]

Sherman war tanks and hydrogen ICBM

But I can draw a T-90 MBT and a couple of FABs on ya, right?  

[Tanker]

Wow occam would have a heart attack were he not already dead.

[Asmodean]

Wow occam would have a heart attack were he not already dead.

His bones still may turn in the remains of his coffin  

[The Magic Pudding]

Who says perfection even exists? How does one define perfection?

By my shapely legs.