determinism

[jrosebud]

how do you all cope with hard determinism?  quite often lately i've been rather depressed about it all.

[i_am_i]

Well, since I have no idea what determinism is it's not hanging me up at all.

Why have you been depressed about it?

[Asmodean]

It annoys me slightly, however, there are some fascinating hypotheses revolving around it. Like for instance the one where the universe has an infinite number of "twins", in which the events are from remarkably similar to radically different from our own

[JillSwift]

how do you all cope with hard determinism?  quite often lately i've been rather depressed about it all.

I knew you were going to ask this.  lol  

[joeactor]

(proof there is no hard determinism)

[elliebean]

I think free will is an illusion, but it's not like I can do anything about it.  :cool:

However, I am interested to see what arguments people have for and against.



 

[SnowOwl]

how do you all cope with hard determinism?  quite often lately i've been rather depressed about it all.

It is really depressing. How dare the universe plan my life for me and not even tell me about it?!   )

[Sophus]

There's no need for Determinism to change how you behave or the choices you make, really. It's merely the philosophical recognition that nature drives your will, thus determines the choices you will make. But you are an entity of nature.

I suppose I cope, for lack of a better word, by the concept of Eternal Return:

To endure the idea of the recurrence one needs: freedom from morality; new means against the fact of pain ( pain conceived as a tool, as the father of pleasure...); the enjoyment of all kinds of uncertainty, experimentalism, as a counterweight to this extreme fatalism; abolition of the concept of necessity; abolition of the "will"; abolition of "knowledge-in-itself."

Never yield to remorse, but at once tell yourself: remorse would simply mean adding to the first act of stupidity a second.

What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence - even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!"
Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus?... Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal confirmation and seal?

I cope by not believing in it. It doesn't make sense to me. By definition the future hasn't happened yet. And if it hasn't happened yet, then it can't be predetermined.

There is a tremendous difference between Determinism and PreDeterminism.

[Gawen]

I have no thoughts on it. It's a philosophical stance that I don't think about. Much like the questions, "Why are we here?" and "What was there before the big bang?" and "If the Universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?"
There are too many types of 'determinism's' for me to worry about, eg; if my free will is an illusion or not or my life was predetermined from the beginning of time, etc. Personally, I think it's bunk. But if it's not, I have many choices, albeit illusions, to make it the best life I have....and so far, I'm enjoying most of it.

[joeactor]

Hmmm... seems like this is a mostly philosophical discussion - what about physics?

Just finished reading "Flash Forward" (since the series got canceled)

They discuss determinism in terms of physics:
"Spatio-temporal Determinism or Eternalism  is the view of special relativity. The "block universe" of Hermann Minkowski and Albert Einstein assumes that time is simply a fourth dimension that already exixts, just like the spatial dimensions. The one possible future is already out there up ahead of where we are now, just like the city blocks to our left and right, according to J. J. C. Smart. He calls himself "somewhat of a fatalist" and describes his view that all times are present as "tenseless.""

CERN has an excerpt from the book explaining it:
http://flashforward.web.cern.ch/flashforward/excerpt2/

[Tank]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Philosophical navel gazing, of interest only to those who get paid as philosophers.

[SnowOwl]

There is a tremendous difference between Determinism and PreDeterminism. :blink: Lemme try and understand this again...

Determinism is the philosophical view that every event, including human cognition, behavior, decision, and action, is causally determined by the environment. It is, in essence, the view that one's life is predetermined before one is even born. Determinism proposes there is a predetermined unbroken chain of prior occurrences back to the origin of the universe.

Determinists believe the universe is fully governed by causal laws resulting in only one possible state at any point in time. With numerous historical debates, many varieties and philosophical positions on the subject of determinism exist, most prominently the free will debates involving compatibilism and incompatibilism.

Determinism should not be confused with determination of human actions by reasons, motives, and desires, or with predestination, which specifically factors the existence of God into its tenets.

"...every event, including human cognition, behavior, decision, and action, is causally determined by the environment." So our actions, etc., are always responses to an occurrence. Each cause can only have one effect/one possible result, and the past, present and future are a chain of causes/effects, and there is only one chain. Determinism is based on the belief that there's only one outcome (and no other choices,) not pre-made choices.

Am I closer, or further off the mark?

[Tank]

I have no thoughts on it. It's a philosophical stance that I don't think about. Much like the questions, "Why are we here?" and "What was there before the big bang?" and "If the Universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?"
There are too many types of 'determinism's' for me to worry about, eg; if my free will is an illusion or not or my life was predetermined from the beginning of time, etc. Personally, I think it's bunk. But if it's not, I have many choices, albeit illusions, to make it the best life I have....and so far, I'm enjoying most of it.

Well said. If it's true then there is nothing we can do about it, if it's wrong it makes no difference, we couldn't tell the difference between a deterministic and non-deterministic world anyway. Hence it's philosophical navel gazing and of no practical value on a day-to-day basis.

[Gawen]

Well said.

Thanks

If it's true then there is nothing we can do about it, if it's wrong it makes no difference, we couldn't tell the difference between a deterministic and non-deterministic world anyway. Hence it's philosophical navel gazing and of no practical value on a day-to-day basis.

That is precisely what I think about it...

[jrosebud]

I've been doing a lot of thinking this week on the subject (tough week!) and have come to several conclusions:

~A non-determined universe doesn't make much sense to me.  Every event is the result of multiple causes; wanting a world without determinism is wishing for uncaused events.  And determined doesn't mean fatalistic; what we do matters.  It helps to shape the rest of existence.  Where I get bummed is when I think about the fact that everything that I consider to be my identity originated elsewhere.  All of my desires and abilities were formed by someone/something else; my dreams are mine only in-so-far as I have felt and remembered them.  The rock star, the Nobel Prize-winning scientist, the Pope, the sociopath, the druggie, and the dedicated philanthropist were all set up to become who they are.  That sucks for the unfortunate (and those who care about them).  

~I have been acquainted with the idea of determinism for a good long while.  It used to give me comfort, so it hurts to have it turn and shown its teeth.  If people are combination of their genetics and experiences, then the idea of a god who punishes individuals eternally (for taking paths that all originate from its first cause) is absurd and disgusting.  More than philsophical navel-gazing (love the term, by the way), figuring out determinism has helped me to buck superstition and become more sympathetic toward others.  I get that people are doing the best they can with what they have.

~The problem:  I think that I'm too sympathetic and empathetic for my own good.  I become debilitated by the suffering of others.  Lately, my sensitivity to it has been ramped up because of the issues with my sick cat and the recognition that quite often good intentions lead to mistakes that do more harm than good (take the entire study of nutrition and the american diet in the last 100 years as an example).  When life's going well, it's easier to ignore the suffering of the general populace; but when I want to affect positive change and find that so much of my good intentions fail, the really horrible tragedies of the world become magnified and too much to handle.  Someone talk me down from the ledge?