What do atheists claim to know nothing about?

[curiosityandthecat]

Thanks for not being serious about calling me a troll; didn't I mention earlier that in the erstwhile Internet Infidels Discussion Board and I believe it is still binding, calling someone a troll is a grave offense, or calling him something equivalent.

If you don't believe me, then look up troll in the Free Speech and Rationalism Board something like that which is the renamed forum of the erstwhile Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

And find out why they don't allow anyone to call anyone else a troll or its equivalent.

You may not have noticed, but this is not the Internet Infidels Discussion Board. This is the Happy Atheist Forum. Their rules are their rules and not ours. A "grave offense" on their board has no more to do with this board than the price of tomatoes in Tuscany.

...但是你英语çš,,很好ã€,

[Miss Anthrope]

Chinese, OK, now things seem a little more clear. After reading all of your posts, I thought you might be a troll because of your style of using English. It's actually not bad, which is why it seemed like you might be someone pretending to be foreign. But if your native language is Mandarin, I can kind of see where your style comes from.

On behalf of Yrreg, I think it's possible he is sincere and that some of the miscommunication has to do with the differences in Western and Eastern though/speech styles. For instance, his use of the word "evil": I study Japanese, which has many similarities with Mandarin, and words are used very conceptually. You have to look at some of his words and just interpret the fundamental concept, not the literal English interpretation. "Evil" is one of those words that can be misleading in Japanese (for instance "evil dream" = "nightmare", but does not necessarily imply evil intent), so I'd imagine in Mandarin as well. When he says "allergic", he might mean "disagreeable"; "immune" might equal "you don't care, doesn't concern you". Or maybe he is being snide, I don't know, but I just think it's important to consider the language barrier here.

Yrreg, in the US and Europe, atheism is essentially just a separation from religious beliefs. Some atheists might fit into the extreme category, but for the most part atheists simply don't have a belief in a god or connection to religious practices/beliefs. They still think about many of the "Universal mysteries" that probably inspired relgious thought, but they look to science to find answers. However, since science doesn't have all of the answers, some of the questions you are asking can't be answered.

[Thom Phelps]

By the way, atheists insist that they cannot hate God because they cannot hate something or someone or God which for them do not exist.

What does psychology of human emotions say about that?

I don't think that observation is very accurate. I don't believe God (Yahweh) exists or ever has existed, and yet I hate Him for what people have done in His name.

[templeboy]

God does exist. I hate him. God exists as a concept. I hate the concept of god, because it is diametrically opposed to my rational naturalistic worldview. Hating god is not like hating a person. Its not personal.

On second thoughts, hate is a very strong word. I dislike god, and I diskike it when people try to promote him/her/it, especially at the expense of genuine enquiry and science.

[PipeBox]

By the way, atheists insist that they cannot hate God because they cannot hate something or someone or God which for them do not exist.

What does psychology of human emotions say about that?

I don't think that observation is very accurate. I don't believe God (Yahweh) exists or ever has existed, and yet I hate Him for what people have done in His name.

Additionally, we can think a fictional character is monstrous in its fiction, as well as saying that if God existed, it would be malevolent.  We can speak on the hypothetical level of "if this were true, then" without actually being taken to say there's an actual god exists.  I happen to dislike the characters of Voldemort, Khan, and Palpatine.  If I said any of them were evil, or malicious, or that they angered me, you'd not even blink because it's understood by all parties that these are fictional characters who you dislike the conception of.  You don't understand this in the case of your god, so you try to make it sound as we hate something real rather than its concept, as though we're criticizing something real rather than hypothetical.

Additionally, it appears that earlier when you were asked for evidence for your belief, you deflected by saying that you weren't here to prove anything and that you just wanted to understand how an atheist's mind works.  What you are missing is that this is exactly how an atheist's mind works.  We haven't seen proof there is no god, we have not seen evidence for one.  We're not atheists because we possess some arcane knowledge, but because you haven't offered anything that looks remotely like true insight into the universe.  Sure, most conceptions of gods are logically impossible, and sure, we have reason to believe that many events recounted in holy books never happened, and sure, we now have far better, more descriptive (and predictive) explanations for occurrences in our universe than religion has ever given us, but this isn't proof that you're wrong.  We don't believe you because, all else aside, you have no evidence that doesn't rely on bad philosophy (Kalam, anyone?), assumption (something must have created the universe and it was my god!), and ignorance (the second law of thermodynamics prevents the formation of life so it must have been a special, supernatural event which only my god could fulfill!).  Making a case from and because of ignorance is regrettable.  Atheists just say they are ignorant and leave the assumptions for religious people.  And that takes us back to the heart of the thread.  Atheists don't claim to know what they obviously cannot.

[Heretical Rants]

...但是你英语çš,,很好ã€,

Haha I was actually able to read two of those characters, even though I've only been studying kanji for a couple weeks...

This is awesome.

[Yrreg]

No need to invent for yourself as an atheist your concept of God to debunk.

As an atheist you are in a relationship of opposition to something that is already there even before you get to be aware of it.

If there is nothing outside your mind for you to relate to in opposition, and then you invent something in your mind to talk about in opposition to, that would be entertaining from your part for your own amusement.

But for people who believe in God as existing outside of their minds, they have a concept of God.

And you for relating to God in opposition, you have got to know correctly exactly what they understand by God, otherwise you are missing the target completely and therefore being irrelevant in your opposition to God.



I am asking you, you don't want any mention of God in your presence or in your perimeter of attention, what about a higher power?




Yrreg

[Heretical Rants]

I think you're forgetting that many of us used to be theists, and know exactly what you mean by "God."

In any case, what kind of higher power are you referring to?  The social machine?  Electromagnetism?  Thetans?

[Karras]

No need to invent for yourself as an atheist your concept of God to debunk.

You said "Ask a logician if that is any proof at all for the non-existence of God, but first tell him what is your concept of God."

I'm not seeking to debunk god(s) at all. I will respond to other people's concepts of god(s) but I will not invent a concept of god(s) to debunk.

As an atheist you are in a relationship of opposition to something that is already there even before you get to be aware of it.

Provide evidence that that something is "already there". I cannot be in opposition to something that does not exist. That would be a waste of time and energy. I also do not oppose vampires.

If there is nothing outside your mind for you to relate to in opposition, and then you invent something in your mind to talk about in opposition to, that would be entertaining from your part for your own amusement.

No, theists do a perfectly good job of of inventingsometing in their minds and I get plenty of amusement from this.

But for people who believe in God as existing outside of their minds, they have a concept of God.

I would not dispute this. Where are you going with it?

And you for relating to God in opposition, you have got to know correctly exactly what they understand by God, otherwise you are missing the target completely and therefore being irrelevant in your opposition to God.

Then tell us your concept of God and I'll have a stab at it. However, one does not have to fully understand someone's concept of god(s) to debunk specific aspects of their god(s) character or behaviour. Do you really need to understand the specifics of the Christian God to state the concept of resurrection is without evidence?

I am asking you, you don't want any mention of God in your presence or in your perimeter of attention, what about a higher power?

And I asked you for an example. But then, that is one of the major problems with your posting style. You do not respond to questions. You do not elaborate on (often nonsensical) questions. You do not engage in conversation. You just keep posting the same old nonsense time after time.

Now I accept that English is not your first language and this is clearly causing you difficulty in making yourself clear but a rational discussion really cannot function this way.

[Heretical Rants]

Provide evidence that that something is "already there". I cannot be in opposition to something that does not exist. That would be a waste of time and energy. I also do not oppose vampires.

I oppose vampires.

One of my cats is a vampire, actually.  I'm currently trying to ween her off of blood, and so far I think I have been successful.

It took me a while to figure it out, but it turns out her kneading motions on my stomach were not a sign of affection.  She was intentionally making me bleed, then lapping up the blood.


I'm not particularly surprised.  She has always been my meanest cat.  She weighs less than all my other cats, yet she beats up all the rest of them regularly.

She does have a nice side, so this song fits her perfectly:
[youtube:17t4zkzx]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgLgk73Fuz4[/youtube:17t4zkzx]
She has the softest fur...


She will be completely calm, purring even, and then suddenly strike out ferociously.

Meow

My kitten, my kitty cat.
When she's content she purrs.
She thinks the house is hers.
But you won't like her when she's angry.
No, you won't like her when she's angry.
Angry, angry.
She's cuddly.
She's lovely when she's in a happy mood.
She loves her kitten food.
But she's got such an attitude...
Completely rotten attitude.
Rotten attitude.

Kitten is angry, kitten is offended.
Fur standing out and little claws extended.
Darting around and meowing quite a bit,
and throwing such a hissy fit.
I don't know what to make of it.

Don't touch her.
Don't look at her.
My kitten knows TAE KWON DO.
She can take you out, I know.
I've seen it before and it's not pretty.
She's really one ferocious kitty cat now.
(Oh no.)

She's deadly.
She'll hurt you.
She'll show you endless pain.
Her little whiskers are stained with the blood of those that she has slain.
Believe me, she will go insane.
She will go insane.

Kitten is angry, kitten is offended.
Fur standing out and little claws extended.
Darting around and meowing quite a bit,
and throwing such a hissy fit.
I don't know what to make of it.

Kitten is angry, full of discontentment.
Wildly attacking random pieces of lint.
Darting around in a psychotic blitz,
and throwing all these hissy fits,
but I still love my kitty cat to bits!

(purr)

She weighs only 4 pounds, and yet even my 25 pound fatcat avoids her.

[Karras]

Sounds like a delightful pet to have around.

Of course, if your cat or some human with delusions of vampirism tried to drink my blood, I would naturally oppose this. I am less inclined to hang garlic around my house to ward off the Dracula style of vampire, however.

[curiosityandthecat]

As an atheist you are in a relationship of opposition to something that is already there even before you get to be aware of it.

This is the key. (Emphasis added.)

You come into this discussion with this preconception. We do not. Your beginning assumption is that there is already a god, and the atheistic worldview is simply a reaction to that god. This is not the case. "God" is the conclusion that theists reach, not the assumption (many conflate the two, and that's from where the confusion comes), while "no god" is the conclusion atheists reach. Please be mindful of this distinction.

[Heretical Rants]

I was just looking over these discussions, and Yregg didn't actually start trolling until AFTER he was accused of being a troll.

Hm.

[Tanker]

I was just looking over these discussions, and Yregg didn't actually start trolling until AFTER he was accused of being a troll.

Hm.

hes been trolling on the treads he hijaked started by Ibelievinhymn.

[Yrreg]

You are the ones opposing God, that is why you call yourselves atheists.

Now, you have got to have a correct concept of the God you are opposing, otherwise you are missing the target of your opposition.

That is being logical (or illogical).

How does an opponent act in opposition to the object whatever he opposes?

One, by demolishing the object he opposes, for example, you oppose tomato, so you go about destroying all tomatoes, tomato plants, and kill anyone who plants or will plant tomatoes.

Two, by avoiding the object of your opposition, for example with tomatoes, you flee from everywhere there is even just one tomato and all people who make use of tomato.

Now, I am a student of human behavior, so I am asking atheists whether they have got the correct concept of God; even though you say you used to be theists, but that does not necessarily imply that you do have the correct concept of God you are now opposing, or the essentially correct concept of God.

When you have the at least essentially and very important essentially correct concept of God, then you can go about destroying God and all people who accept the existence of God, or even just the correct concept of God.

In that way you will have done with God totally so as to exist without God.

Or you avoid totally all kinds of so much as an inkling of God even just in your heart and in your mind, by deleting all whatever reminders of God and the correct concept of God from everywhere or all people who accept the concept and the existence of God.

How do you avoid all whatever reminders of God wherever you be?

Don't be angry now, but I will give you a tip: quarantine yourselves in a desert island all by yourselves atheists.

Can you ever succeed to demolish God or to avoid God, even just the correct concept of God?

So, unless you get the correct concept of God, you are into straw-man fallacy.



About the evidence of God, that is a question that need not concern us here because it has been argued for since the knowledge of God dawned upon the heart and mind of people who accept God, and there is an impasse: you atheists claim there is no evidence, but theists claim there is evidence; so there.

Now you have got to show theists that you have got the concept of their God correctly, but as usual I fear you will try to evade this issue.


And still continue to groan and moan about how much you are suffering from God and the people who accept God.



Okay, suppose you just tell me here in less than fifty (50) words what is the essential concept of God for Christians, and I will see whether you have got the correct concept of God, by comparing your formulation of your concept of God with the formulation of the concept of God from Christians, because Christians have a way of stating in a few words what is the essential concept of God they believe in.

And please forget about continually accusing me of being a troll, what indeed is a troll but for your purpose whatever it is that will convince the owners of this forum to ban me.

But the owners of this forum don't seem to agree with your idea of a troll if that is your only idea of a troll, namely, whatever it is that will move the owners here to ban me.

And also about my kind of English which you cannot understand but manage just the same to react to my messages copiously in words.




Yrreg