Christians, explain this one to me:

[Loffler]

The reason people in ancient times immediately understood the Christian's explanation about Jesus's sacrifice for our salvation, and the reason it sounds so counter-intuitive and goofy to us, is because our society no longer has any concept of "blood atonement."

In those days, people literally believed not only that the guilty should be punished, but that blood literally had to be spilled to fix certain crimes or sins. The actual blood was significant; someone had to suffer for the crime. So when Christ "died for our sins," he was giving his blood for the atonement. Someone's blood had to be spilled, and Jesus offered his own.


Today we don't believe in this barbarian concept of blood atonement, so the crucifixion of Jesus as salvation for our sins makes no sense.

[Asmodean]

Today we don't believe in this barbarian concept of blood atonement, so the crucifixion of Jesus as salvation for our sins makes no sense.

Not to mention that the concept of sin makes no sense either. There are actions and consequences. That's all there is to it.

[DeathOfReligion]

The reason people in ancient times immediately understood the Christian's explanation about Jesus's sacrifice for our salvation, and the reason it sounds so counter-intuitive and goofy to us, is because our society no longer has any concept of "blood atonement."

In those days, people literally believed not only that the guilty should be punished, but that blood literally had to be spilled to fix certain crimes or sins. The actual blood was significant; someone had to suffer for the crime. So when Christ "died for our sins," he was giving his blood for the atonement. Someone's blood had to be spilled, and Jesus offered his own.


Today we don't believe in this barbarian concept of blood atonement, so the crucifixion of Jesus as salvation for our sins makes no sense.

I get the concept, and I understand that this is sometimes also Christians' explanation for the question I posed. Thank you for offering it.

But I was leading anyone who cared to answer to the obvious conclusion, as I have already stated:

Whatever action needed to be taken to save mankind, required a conscious decision by god. And since that was the case, he could have chosen to save anyone and everyone. Not just the believers. And not just against pain of hell. But he could have just done it. Forgive everyone. And not just the tiny exclusive group, but everyone throughout all time.

Anyone who has ever thought about this for even one second should realize how ridiculous it is to create a species which will need saving from a threat you yourself created, then to only save those who meet arbitrary conditions you also create. Choosing NOT to save them when you have the power to, is evil, in the purest sense.

[Loffler]

You're right. The existence of "rules" for salvation that Jesus has to meet contradicts God's omnipotence. When you ask believers this, they typically say, "Heh, the Lord works in mysterious ways." Meaning all explanation they've given you up to this point has been pointless, since the Lord is mysterious anyway.

[Voter]

What part of Jesus' life, death, or resurrection actually saves you?

Let me explain. Christians love to say that Jesus died for your sins, but they never go into any detail on what that means. An argument like that must explain HOW you are saved by Jesus' actions or death.

So what actions were taken, and by whom, to save mankind? Jesus dies, is resurrected, and then what? What happened next, to save man? What was the mechanism of salvation?

Was it God? Was it Jesus? What did they do? Did they wave a magic wand? Did they speak the magic words? Something had to happen, after all, a guy dying and living again has nothing to do with saving mankind. So there was obviously some decision made, some action taken, to actually DO the saving.

So what was it?

God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.

[Asmodean]

God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.

What a weird sense of "justice" it has...  

[Loffler]

One time I was pissed about all the people who got killed in Darfur. But then my cousin died, and my sense of justice was appeased.

[Voter]

God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.

What a weird sense of "justice" it has...  

Some think so, some don't. One human society's sense of justice sometimes seems weird to other cultures. Heck, in America, an act can be consensual sex in one place, but statutory rape a mile away across the state line. That seems weird to many people.

[Promethium147]

Hey - let's talk Justice!

Sense of Equity is a basic emotional (i.e., Instinctual) complex in all social animals - including social insects.

It is painfully apparent in capuchin monkeys, which fit in the palm of the hand. Abuse a monkey's sense of equity, and he attacks - but more importantly, all other monkeys who see the situation attack too. We call it Society. The offender is excluded, attacked, killed or banished (ignored) - thrust from society and its benefits - which, for a Social Animal, is death.

This is where the notion of Justice arises - it is perfectly essential to society - without Justice (satisfaction of Sense of Equity), we all kill, we all die.

But this sense can be severely twisted with deferral of Justice into an Afterlife.

And so - the belief in an Afterlife kills all of us, YEEHAW!    

[Loffler]

God's sense of justice was satisfied by Jesus' death.

What a weird sense of "justice" it has...  

Some think so, some don't. One human society's sense of justice sometimes seems weird to other cultures. Heck, in America, an act can be consensual sex in one place, but statutory rape a mile away across the state line. That seems weird to many people.

And by this you mean the citizens of America have trouble relating to the values of the citizens of Heaven?

[Voter]

And by this you mean the citizens of America have trouble relating to the values of the citizens of Heaven?

No, by this I mean that people sometimes have trouble relating to each other's senses of justice.  As God made us in his image, it's not surprising that some people can relate to his sense of justice, and some can't.

[Loffler]

And by this you mean the citizens of America have trouble relating to the values of the citizens of Heaven?

No, by this I mean that people sometimes have trouble relating to each other's senses of justice.  As God made us in his image, it's not surprising that some people can relate to his sense of justice, and some can't.

If we're in his image, shouldn't we all be able to relate to his sense of justice?

[Voter]

Whatever action needed to be taken to save mankind, required a conscious decision by god. And since that was the case, he could have chosen to save anyone and everyone. Not just the believers. And not just against pain of hell. But he could have just done it. Forgive everyone. And not just the tiny exclusive group, but everyone throughout all time.

Anyone who has ever thought about this for even one second should realize how ridiculous it is to create a species which will need saving from a threat you yourself created, then to only save those who meet arbitrary conditions you also create. Choosing NOT to save them when you have the power to, is evil, in the purest sense.

By your own logic, you are choosing not to forgive God, and so you too are evil.

However, your logic doesn't agree to common experience. Tell a parent whose child was murdered that they can simply make a conscious decision to forgive the murderer and that's that.

In the news yesterday was the story of one of the Manson murderers. She has brain cancer and a short time to live. She and her family want her released from prison. Family members of her victims testified that they thought it would be unjust to release her, even though she can barely move and so poses no threat to society. Apparently they are not able to simply decide to forgive.

[Voter]

And by this you mean the citizens of America have trouble relating to the values of the citizens of Heaven?

No, by this I mean that people sometimes have trouble relating to each other's senses of justice.  As God made us in his image, it's not surprising that some people can relate to his sense of justice, and some can't.

If we're in his image, shouldn't we all be able to relate to his sense of justice?

We're in his image, but fallen, so we can relate in part. I'm guessing you agree that murder and stealing are wrong, so you relate in part.

[Jolly Sapper]

But doesn't this sorta go against some of the "free will" arguments that Believers use to say how God is a great and good?  If you are born already damned then you really weren't given much of a chance to begin with.  

If I don't believe now, but I believe in the future then would I still go to hell?  If I don't go to hell, what would be the punishment for those fellow mortals, those other beleivers, who judged me as a sinner or unfit to stand in God's grace?