Christians, explain this one to me:

[DeathOfReligion]

What part of Jesus' life, death, or resurrection actually saves you?

Let me explain. Christians love to say that Jesus died for your sins, but they never go into any detail on what that means. An argument like that must explain HOW you are saved by Jesus' actions or death.

So what actions were taken, and by whom, to save mankind? Jesus dies, is resurrected, and then what? What happened next, to save man? What was the mechanism of salvation?

Was it God? Was it Jesus? What did they do? Did they wave a magic wand? Did they speak the magic words? Something had to happen, after all, a guy dying and living again has nothing to do with saving mankind. So there was obviously some decision made, some action taken, to actually DO the saving.

So what was it?

[Asmodean]

And if a Christian sees this and replies to it, I have a question too:

What exactly is it that we need salvation from?

[curiosityandthecat]

Your response: "God works in mysterious ways."

Can't expect a logical answer from a group of people who believe that an undead, magical carpenter can save their eternal souls.  

[jcm]

What part of Jesus' life, death, or resurrection actually saves you?

Let me explain. Christians love to say that Jesus died for your sins, but they never go into any detail on what that means. An argument like that must explain HOW you are saved by Jesus' actions or death.

So what actions were taken, and by whom, to save mankind? Jesus dies, is resurrected, and then what? What happened next, to save man? What was the mechanism of salvation?

Was it God? Was it Jesus? What did they do? Did they wave a magic wand? Did they speak the magic words? Something had to happen, after all, a guy dying and living again has nothing to do with saving mankind. So there was obviously some decision made, some action taken, to actually DO the saving.

So what was it?

it doesn't matter really, just more advertising for the big guy.

hey important shit happens in heaven. your soul is too stupid to know what is really going on while you are on earth. so just believe this crap until you get heaven-smarts and you'll then know the real deal.

do bad-bad things, go to bad place...do good-good things, go to good place. what the hell else do you want to know?

[Promethium147]

HEY DOR! Did you just come over from that slimy corporate "Hearst"ory Channel board?

You can't even say "HEARST" there without being AutoPopped. WR lives on - Creator God of Yellow Journalism BOW I SAY!

You should be so lucky as to find a Fundy that can even read what you have written here; but if you do, by golly, I want to play, too.

Remember to laugh here, as well as Get Serious.

---------------------------------------------------------

The mechanism is God did It, as always, end of story. Cut and Paste, Mix and Match as in Creator/Intelligent Designer/Sudden Emergence.

Good line in "Sister Mary Tells All" - when confronted with your Salvation Scenario, a little girl politely asks -

"But - why didn't God just forgive everybody?"  

[DeathOfReligion]

HEY DOR! Did you just come over from that slimy corporate "Hearst"ory Channel board?

You can't even say "HEARST" there without being AutoPopped. WR lives on - Creator God of Yellow Journalism BOW I SAY!

You should be so lucky as to find a Fundy that can even read what you have written here; but if you do, by golly, I want to play, too.

Remember to laugh here, as well as Get Serious.

---------------------------------------------------------

The mechanism is God did It, as always, end of story. Cut and Paste, Mix and Match as in Creator/Intelligent Designer/Sudden Emergence.

Good line in "Sister Mary Tells All" - when confronted with your Salvation Scenario, a little girl politely asks -

"But - why didn't God just forgive everybody?"  

That was what I was getting at. Since a decision had to be made to save mankind after Jesus dies or whatever, there was always the opportunity to do just that. Save everybody.

And there is no autopopping at HOC, but there are extremely mysterious and prolific poofer stealth mods. They will poof for any reason or no reason at all. And not just the post they consider offensive. But ALL the posts in line of succession after yours.

That being said, I still like it there. I've already found that here, when all theist opinions are squelched by the very forum rules, let alone the 99% majority of atheist posters, it doesn't make for as lively a discussion.

[susangail]

What part of Jesus' life, death, or resurrection actually saves you?

So what actions were taken, and by whom, to save mankind? Jesus dies, is resurrected, and then what? What happened next, to save man? What was the mechanism of salvation?

So what was it?

Well, I can only say what I was taught: Basically man is sinful and therefore unworthy to be in the presence of God. It is impossible to get to heaven because of this. We all deserve eternal damnation in hell. But since God loves us so much, He sent His Son to die for our sins so we would be saved from hell. That basically means that all the wrath of God (which is pretty much scarier than hell) was put onto Jesus when He was on the cross so we were saved from it. Hence "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" -which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"-~Mark 15:33.

You can't be near God when you have sin. You always have sin if you aren't forgiven. You have to be near God (spiritually) to be forgiven, but you can't because you are sinful (and so on) Because Jesus died on the cross, we can now all be forgiven. He took God's wrath for us so now we can approach God (spiritually) and ask for forgiveness.

Bleh, there's more but it gives me a headache.

[susangail]

And if a Christian sees this and replies to it, I have a question too:

What exactly is it that we need salvation from?

I kind of tackled this one in the other post but: We are being saved from eternal damnation, eternal separation from God (which is a very horrible and terrifying thing in the Christian perspective). We are also being saved from God Himself. As I mentioned above, God's wrath is crazy scary and we are saved from is through Jesus. We are also being saved from ourselves. Our lives are completely pointless and meaningless without Him. His love is the greatest thing that can happen to us.

So we need salvation from eternal damnation (hell), God's wrath, and ourselves.

Bleh!

[Asmodean]

I kind of tackled this one in the other post but: We are being saved from eternal damnation,

Which implies what, exactly..?

eternal separation from God (which is a very horrible and terrifying thing in the Christian perspective).

Separation from god... So how is it different from what we have down here on Earth, I wonder..?  

We are also being saved from ourselves. Our lives are completely pointless and meaningless without Him. His love is the greatest thing that can happen to us.

Being saved from ourselves I can understand, still, I, for one, do not need nor want that "salvation"

... ... Is THAT what they are trying to save me from? LOL! And here I was, expecting spectacular meteor rains and earth quakes and tsunamis and who-knows-what-else and all I get is being saved from a zombie while at the same time being saved from separation from His long-since-rotten hide..? Boo...  

[susangail]

I kind of tackled this one in the other post but: We are being saved from eternal damnation,

Which implies what, exactly..?

Hell... Jesus died so we don't have to go to hell. Without God we're doomed!

eternal separation from God (which is a very horrible and terrifying thing in the Christian perspective).

Separation from god... So how is it different from what we have down here on Earth, I wonder..?    

Haha, no wait! That was prophecy. We had to crucify Him to be saved.

... ... Is THAT what they are trying to save me from? LOL! And here I was, expecting spectacular meteor rains and earth quakes and tsunamis and who-knows-what-else and all I get is being saved from a zombie while at the same time being saved from separation from His long-since-rotten hide..? Boo...  

[Asmodean]

Aww sorry to disappoint.


 

 

[Promethium147]

We don't need YOUR puny camera - we've got Pat Robertsons...

Pat collected many millions in tithes to construct a modern, state-of-the-art TV studio for the sole purpose of - capturing and covering the Second Coming of Christ.

Although the studio was built and brought online, Pat decided to divert its use to other purposes while we're waiting.

Did you know - Pat Robertson, personally, is the third largest cable TV provider on Earth?

Look him up on Wikipedia, do a little research - the sonofabitch owns tens of thousands of black slaves, forced labor, in Africa - mining Blood Diamonds! It's all right out there, folks. Can't prosecute him, he doesn't buy politicians - he builds them from scratch!

---------------------------------------------------------

Now about that original post - you are asking for Mechanisms, and that is the problem, isn't it? You THINK mechanistically, in terms of cause and effect, and naturalistic rules of order.

Pat sez - CUT THAT OUT!

The Bible is a carefully selected set of a few texts among thousands that were considered by the Council of Nicea. The appear to have been selected to -

1) cover many moral issues (and provide a simple, consistent model of behavior to the healots.)
2) contradict themselves such that any behavior whatsoever by authority  may find some scriptural "justification."

YOUR problem, DOR, is that you are reading the WHOLE thing, not your Readings Selected by Authority - and trying to reconcile the contradictions - then you go further, and start ASKING QUESTIONS. You're gonna find big trouble, Son. Bully for you.

The Bible is purest Authoritarianism, Tool of the Oppressor - do as I say, not as I do, never question, never think - or die, die, die... etc., etc.

You need the Afterlife thing because - it is immediately evident to all of us that evil goes largely unpunished, and Justice is largely unavailable in this world, so - displace it to the next world, lest you go mad by continual offense to your Sense of Equity, the most basic motivating emotional complex in any social species - including social insects. It is essential to Societies of any sort, the core social self-regulating "mechanism".

With the offer of Suspended Justice via deferral to an afterlife, Authority may commit any crime. Without it - they hang.

Your only role in this scheme is Total Submission. If you fail in this, you not only die - you die again and again, most horribly, forever n' ever.

Here's what you need to do - stop Thinking. The best method is - start Feeling. After all, FEAR is the most basic emotion, and Joy is only life with a lack of FEAR. There is a large, basic structure in the brain for FEAR - the Amygdala. It has its own dedicated, redundant neural paths from the senses such that you feel FEAR and respond much more quickly than you may Think in the Higher Cortex. Your Amygdala is the same as a salt-water crocodile's, almost indistinguishable - but there is no isolated Joy mechanism, it is diffuse in the Higher Cortex - which the Crocodile, a reptile, lacks completely.

You need to become a Slithering Reptile to play. Sadly, you were not "made" that way - and you must fix it yourself, for after all, you know full well (in that pesky Higher Cortex) that there just aren't enough Cops to stop you. You must build your own Cop in your Head.

Here's some tips -

1) Chant (something such as "Washed in the Blood of the Lamb" really works. Of course, this one might leave you Less than what you might now consider Clean.)
2) Pray (Internal Chanting, as Chanting can interfere with you Work. Get good at it, and you can Chant constantly while toting your barge, or lifting your bale. Integral Calculus, however, will still be quite impossible.)
3) Smile (The internal mental state affects the facial muscles - and conversely, the facial muscles affect the internal mental state, more effectively and more easily than any other muscle group. People will think you are Happy, they will Feel Happier, they will Smile, you will think they are Happy, you will Smile, it will just go 'round and 'round, and all will Feel Happy - but of course, they won't know why. Very, very effective indeed.)

With this, you can Feel Happy Now, and none of the endless intellectual labors of a true education will be required - with this, you may Understand, and from this position, mock those annoying EggHeads - justt not very articulately, of course.

Get to it, and let me know how it goes.

[afreethinker30]

And if a Christian sees this and replies to it, I have a question too:

What exactly is it that we need salvation from?

From Eve eating the apple after God told her no.That she gave us knowledge is bad and defied God's wishes.From all of the non christian god worshippers.From pretty much anything that wasn't "good" in gods eyes.


"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother- in-law...."  Matthew 10:34

Wow Jesus sounds like such a great guy huh

[Asmodean]

We don't need YOUR puny camera - we've got Pat Robertsons...

I'll bet my camera is at least as big. I only have one though, not a studio full of 'em. BUT if that studio gets a few of my spectacular meteors up it's behind, MY camera will påossibly still be alive :-D

[MariaEvri]

And if a Christian sees this and replies to it, I have a question too:

What exactly is it that we need salvation from?

From Eve eating the apple after God told her no.

but
but
god is all knowing
he knew she would eat the damn thing
so he knew we would need "salvation"
so guys I think we've been screwed all along!