Alcoholics Anonymous and belief in God

[Loffler]

People often have to delude themselves in some way to get through difficult times.

I'm unaware of any evidence indicating this is true.

People used to say prayer helped people recover. That turned out to be not only false, but people who knew they were being prayed for actually got worse.

People used to say optimism helped the sick recover. That, too, turned out to be feel-good hogwash.

People like to say belief in something got them through this or that. I don't see the evidence that scientifically establishes controls and variables to help establish that this age-old claim is anything more than wishful thinking and yet another symptom in the grocery list of symptoms of religious delusion.

[VanReal]

Loffler,  open discorse is terrific!  Open discorse is not making a blanket statement about what works and what doesn't, that's very individual and just saying "it doesn't work. At all" is not opening a conversation, it's closing one or stopping any from starting.

[Loffler]

Loffler,  open discorse is terrific!  Open discorse is not making a blanket statement about what works and what doesn't, that's very individual and just saying "it doesn't work. At all" is not opening a conversation, it's closing one or stopping any from starting.

It's an invitation for someone making the claim to back it up.

[VanReal]

Loffler,  open discorse is terrific!  Open discorse is not making a blanket statement about what works and what doesn't, that's very individual and just saying "it doesn't work. At all" is not opening a conversation, it's closing one or stopping any from starting.

It's an invitation for someone making the claim to back it up.

Not a very inviting one.  More of an invitation to an argument that will go no where since you have left no room for debate...blanket absolute stated right out of the box.

[Miss Anthrope]

People often have to delude themselves in some way to get through difficult times.

I'm unaware of any evidence indicating this is true.

People used to say prayer helped people recover. That turned out to be not only false, but people who knew they were being prayed for actually got worse.

People used to say optimism helped the sick recover. That, too, turned out to be feel-good hogwash.

People like to say belief in something got them through this or that. I don't see the evidence that scientifically establishes controls and variables to help establish that this age-old claim is anything more than wishful thinking and yet another symptom in the grocery list of symptoms of religious delusion.

I'd be interested to read anything that completely discounts that having an optimistic attiude doesn't help recovery in at least some cases, and also what kind of "sick" are you talking about? It's a pretty vague word. Obviously being optimistic isn't going to cure AIDS.

And "scientific evidence" aside concerning my previous claim, here are some examples:

Your (hypothetical) daughter, who is not very attractive, has been rejected by a popular, handsome boy in school, and she's heartbroken. Do you tell her "Look, you're not very good looking, and looks are very important. You're being irrational; aim lower." No, you delude her a bit and tell her she's pretty and too good for him. if you think it would help a teenage girl to "tell it like it is", you've obvioulsy never known one..

A person in a tough econcomy is having problems finding work, and all prospects are looking grim. It's beneficial for that person to remain optimistic, even if they have no current reason to be, if it motivates them to keep looking for work.

And from actual studies:

The obvious: Having an optimistic outlook can help prevent depression, thus boosting the immune system, which leads to better health in general.

Studies have shown that patients with heart disease who maintained optimistic outlooks were twice as likely to survive than pessimists.

Studies have found that many wealthy, successful people have a bloated sense of their own abilities and intelligence. This self-delusion is a factor in their willingness to take chances.

The higher a soldier's intelligence, the more likely they are to die in combat. Some thick-headed soldier who has some sort of "faith", even if its just a self deluded notion that he's an invincible super-soldier, might be more likely to make quick, life saving decisions than a soldier who's really accepting the reality of his situation and thus trying to rely primarily on his intellect to survive.

None of these things are black and white, so I'm curious as to why you exhibit a narrow-minded selection bias in favor of certain studies.

Is beleiving in God going to lessen the pain of withdrawl? I doubt it, but if you think that a person's beliefs can't help them psychologically to DEAL with things, then you're deluded. I grew up in the church scene, and I've seen alcoholics turn their lives over to God and quit EVERYTHING, cigarettes included. they would obsess over the Bible, pray, etc, filling the "holes" in with faith based reasoning and their desire to please God, or maintaining a beleif that God was helping them. I'm not a theist, but I did something similar when I was younger and got into something bad for a while. I decided I had to stop before I really got into it, and forced myself through withdrawal. You know what got me through the pain and discomfort? I kept forcing myself to interpret the pain as "a good feeling", kind of like what I did when I ran in high school track, and I kept deluding myself into thinking that I didn't feel good when I did that stuff, despite the fact that I did. So, regardless of what you think, willing self delusion helped me through a hard time.

Ever hear of the placebo effect? Do you actually believe that the mind has NOTHING to do with the body?

 There is a wealth of information out there that supports what I said, from the psychological level to the biological. I'm putting the burden of proof on you to show me that optimism doesn't help with recovery at all.

[VanReal]

Well said Miss Anthrope.  It's also easy to provide information on the opposite.  Being negative (or pessimistic) can lead to health problems, financial, problems, relationship problems, and mental health issues.  It starts in the brain and worms it's way through your life causing a lack of motivation, action, poor bahavior and decision making, and also health problems.  Much like moods and thoughts that are stressful cause my manic side to rear it's ugly head, good and optimistic thoughts help me to even out, gain more control, finish projects, lower my heart rate, and dip back into reality long enough to realize what's happening.  The mind is a powerful thing and while it's certainly not a cure for AIDS (as someone mentioned) it can have powerful effects on recovery and even physical health if you can use it wisely.

I had a little difficulty with some of the quotes of your last post, couldn't tell who was saying what in the first part or where the original quote ended.

I want to know how the stop smoking thing worked, arggghh, none of my mind trickery or hand-wringing has been effective!  

[Miss Anthrope]

I had a little difficulty with some of the quotes of your last post, couldn't tell who was saying what in the first part or where the original quote ended.

Fixed! Somehow the first bracket disappeared.

I want to know how the stop smoking thing worked, arggghh, none of my mind trickery or hand-wringing has been effective!  

[VanReal]

Ditto here. I've come close, but my "this discomfort feels good" trick wasn't much help in the case of nicotine addicition. I might try my dad's trick, he quit almost 10 years ago for good by smoking half a cig at a time and saving all the clips, and then steadily tapering down with those. I've decided not to waste money on the gum, everyone I know who's tried it ended up smoking more heavily after slipping up. It's better to try and minimize the nicotine in your system like my dad did, I think, rather than just substitute the source.

Or you could contract Hepititis A somehow, one of the potential symptoms is sudden distaste for tobacco.

[Loffler]

Loffler,  open discorse is terrific!  Open discorse is not making a blanket statement about what works and what doesn't, that's very individual and just saying "it doesn't work. At all" is not opening a conversation, it's closing one or stopping any from starting.

It's an invitation for someone making the claim to back it up.

Not a very inviting one.  More of an invitation to an argument that will go no where since you have left no room for debate...blanket absolute stated right out of the box.

Allow me to rephrase: say, is there any science behind the old assumption that superstition helps people recover? Or should I just play along and pretend it's a foregone conclusion?

I'm sure there are people who wouldn't have made it except for their religious beliefs. I'm equally sure there are people who were made worse by their religious beliefs. I'd like to see some evidence that the former outnumber the latter.

[Loffler]

Your (hypothetical) daughter, who is not very attractive, has been rejected by a popular, handsome boy in school, and she's heartbroken. Do you tell her "Look, you're not very good looking, and looks are very important. You're being irrational; aim lower." No, you delude her a bit and tell her she's pretty and too good for him. if you think it would help a teenage girl to "tell it like it is", you've obvioulsy never known one..

I wouldn't have the heart to tell her the truth. That doesn't mean my encouragement will suddenly make her pretty. It might make her feel pretty. Similarly, religion sometimes makes people think they're not going to die.

I like your analogy, it is very fitting.

The obvious: Having an optimistic outlook can help prevent depression, thus boosting the immune system, which leads to better health in general.

Not so obvious. A person with a positive outlook isn't depressed. There's a difference in an "obvious truth" and a "tautology." From personal experience with a real Debbie Downer of an ex-girlfriend, telling her to cheer up only made her worse.

Studies have found that many wealthy, successful people have a bloated sense of their own abilities and intelligence. This self-delusion is a factor in their willingness to take chances.

And a high percentage of lottery winners played the lottery. I'd like to know more about the people who aren't successful. How many of them are delusional about not only their abilities but their success?

None of these things are black and white, so I'm curious as to why you exhibit a narrow-minded selection bias in favor of certain studies.

If I'm aware of two contradictory studies, I go back to an agnostic square one until further notice. Which is where I am right now. I have no reason to believe optimism helps, so I won't believe it until the data is clearer. Sorta like my God policy.

I grew up in the church scene, and I've seen alcoholics turn their lives over to God and quit EVERYTHING, cigarettes included.

That would be a compelling anecdote if you didn't grow up in the church scene.

I decided I had to stop before I really got into it, and forced myself through withdrawal. You know what got me through the pain and discomfort? I kept forcing myself to interpret the pain as "a good feeling", kind of like what I did when I ran in high school track, and I kept deluding myself into thinking that I didn't feel good when I did that stuff, despite the fact that I did. So, regardless of what you think, willing self delusion helped me through a hard time.

That is nothing like religion. Forcing yourself to "believe" something is several tiers under actually believing it.

Ever hear of the placebo effect? Do you actually believe that the mind has NOTHING to do with the body?

Yes I have. And it can skew data in both directions. Sometimes it makes people better, sometimes it makes them worse.

There is a wealth of information out there that supports what I said, from the psychological level to the biological. I'm putting the burden of proof on you to show me that optimism doesn't help with recovery at all.

Next you should make me prove God doesn't exist. I can't do that either, and for the same reason.

[VanReal]

Allow me to rephrase: say, is there any science behind the old assumption that superstition helps people recover? Or should I just play along and pretend it's a foregone conclusion?

I'm sure there are people who wouldn't have made it except for their religious beliefs. I'm equally sure there are people who were made worse by their religious beliefs. I'd like to see some evidence that the former outnumber the latter.

I'm not sure there needs to be science to back this up.  There's not any hard science that determines a person is an addict, although we can use soft sciences (like psychology) to determine characterstic behavior and our sense of observation.  If a person recovers from an addiction and used religion as a tool to do so then that helped them.  If someone recovered and used sheer will-power and self awareness then they did not.  If I do yoga to calm myself when stressed there is no scientific evidence that the yoga is helping me, other than the fact that I think it does, and therefore my stress releases.

Hard science doesn't answer everything, especially when it comes to human emotion and correcting behavior.  Because religion would not work for you, or I and would actually distract my ability to recover we can't say that it doesn't help others recover.

[Loffler]

Allow me to rephrase: say, is there any science behind the old assumption that superstition helps people recover? Or should I just play along and pretend it's a foregone conclusion?

I'm sure there are people who wouldn't have made it except for their religious beliefs. I'm equally sure there are people who were made worse by their religious beliefs. I'd like to see some evidence that the former outnumber the latter.

I'm not sure there needs to be science to back this up.  There's not any hard science that determines a person is an addict, although we can use soft sciences (like psychology) to determine characterstic behavior and our sense of observation.  If a person recovers from an addiction and used religion as a tool to do so then that helped them.  If someone recovered and used sheer will-power and self awareness then they did not.  If I do yoga to calm myself when stressed there is no scientific evidence that the yoga is helping me, other than the fact that I think it does, and therefore my stress releases.

Hard science doesn't answer everything, especially when it comes to human emotion and correcting behavior.  Because religion would not work for you, or I and would actually distract my ability to recover we can't say that it doesn't help others recover.

I didn't say hard or soft science, I just said science. By your logic I could smoke weed and do yoga, and since I calmed down they both calmed me down. You're suggesting it's impossible to separate correlation but not causation, but worse than that you're suggesting correlations should nevertheless be honored as causations.

[VanReal]

I didn't say hard or soft science, I just said science. By your logic I could smoke weed and do yoga, and since I calmed down they both calmed me down. You're suggesting it's impossible to separate correlation but not causation, but worse than that you're suggesting correlations should nevertheless be honored as causations.

No, you are not reading and are instead forming an opinion of what I say based on your own argument.  What I am saying is that when you are dealing with a corrective action for a behavior you are trying to stop, that what works for one does not work for every one, but what works for that one person is what works for that one person.  There is no need for scientific proof that it worked, the fact that the behavior has been corrected provides the evidence of what worked for that person.

If Jane is an cocaine addict and she enters recovery using her religion as a tool throughout that recovery and as a tool of maintaining that recovery then her religious tool worked to help her.  There is no need for scientific evidence to determine how she recovered, it's a mental recovery, a corrected behavior that she worked through by using religion.

Likewise, if Jim is a cocaine addict and he enters recovery and uses exercise as his tool throughout that recovery and as a tool of maintaining that recovery then his exercise tool worked to help him.  There is no need for scientific evidence to determine how he recovered, blah, blah, blah, he recovered and he did so by using exercise.

I Paul stops sniffing cocaine simply by sheer willpower then he recovered without the use of an external tool.

You can't say that something doesn't work because there is no science to document why it worked, it worked there's no way to argue that it didn't.

[Loffler]

I didn't say hard or soft science, I just said science. By your logic I could smoke weed and do yoga, and since I calmed down they both calmed me down. You're suggesting it's impossible to separate correlation but not causation, but worse than that you're suggesting correlations should nevertheless be honored as causations.

No, you are not reading and are instead forming an opinion of what I say based on your own argument.  What I am saying is that when you are dealing with a corrective action for a behavior you are trying to stop, that what works for one does not work for every one, but what works for that one person is what works for that one person.  There is no need for scientific proof that it worked, the fact that the behavior has been corrected provides the evidence of what worked for that person.

If Jane is an cocaine addict and she enters recovery using her religion as a tool throughout that recovery and as a tool of maintaining that recovery then her religious tool worked to help her.  There is no need for scientific evidence to determine how she recovered, it's a mental recovery, a corrected behavior that she worked through by using religion.

Likewise, if Jim is a cocaine addict and he enters recovery and uses exercise as his tool throughout that recovery and as a tool of maintaining that recovery then his exercise tool worked to help him.  There is no need for scientific evidence to determine how he recovered, blah, blah, blah, he recovered and he did so by using exercise.

I Paul stops sniffing cocaine simply by sheer willpower then he recovered without the use of an external tool.

You can't say that something doesn't work because there is no science to document why it worked, it worked there's no way to argue that it didn't.

Then if I recover from alcoholism the same day a tree falls in my yard, a falling tree helped cure my alcoholism.

[Miss Anthrope]

First of all, I want to re-cap my original statement: "People often have to delude themselves in some way to get through difficult times."

You completely dismissed this claim, yet everyone I have ever known has exhibited the behavior I described in some form or another.
I was not specifically talking about religion, only making the connection to argue your hard assertions.

The obvious: Having an optimistic outlook can help prevent depression, thus boosting the immune system, which leads to better health in general.

Not so obvious. A person with a positive outlook isn't depressed. There's a difference in an "obvious truth" and a "tautology." From personal experience with a real Debbie Downer of an ex-girlfriend, telling her to cheer up only made her worse.

when did I ever claim that telling someone to cheer up would make them feel better? I was merely pointing out that there is a connection between optimism and health, from which we can infer that being optimistic can help people get better physically if for no other reason that it prevents depression, which weakens the immune system.

Studies have found that many wealthy, successful people have a bloated sense of their own abilities and intelligence. This self-delusion is a factor in their willingness to take chances.

And a high percentage of lottery winners played the lottery. I'd like to know more about the people who aren't successful. How many of them are delusional about not only their abilities but their success?

Did I say all people with self-delusions become successful? No, I was pointing out another piece of evidence that self-delusion can result in beneficial behavior.

None of these things are black and white, so I'm curious as to why you exhibit a narrow-minded selection bias in favor of certain studies.

If I'm aware of two contradictory studies, I go back to an agnostic square one until further notice. Which is where I am right now. I have no reason to believe optimism helps, so I won't believe it until the data is clearer. Sorta like my God policy.

So, despite mountains of information showing that it's beneficial for one's health in general to be optimistic, you're waiting for a conclusive statement like:
"Optimism is not beneficial for health nor does it ever aid in recovery." You'll NEVER see it, just as you'll never see "Pessimism will always ruin your health and make you fail at everything."

I grew up in the church scene, and I've seen alcoholics turn their lives over to God and quit EVERYTHING, cigarettes included.

That would be a compelling anecdote if you didn't grow up in the church scene.

Oh, I see, just becasue I was forced to go to church as a kid, I'm not capable of looking at these things objectively? So, my observations of things that actually happened, things which even as a kid I did not assume were becasue of God, are skewed simply becasue I went to church? You're making a very uninformed assumption about what I believed and how I interpeted my observations. Even as kid, an unusually introspective one I might add, I made the connection that what those people were doing was akin to how I might substitute another activity for playing videogames if my system stopped working.

I decided I had to stop before I really got into it, and forced myself through withdrawal. You know what got me through the pain and discomfort? I kept forcing myself to interpret the pain as "a good feeling", kind of like what I did when I ran in high school track, and I kept deluding myself into thinking that I didn't feel good when I did that stuff, despite the fact that I did. So, regardless of what you think, willing self delusion helped me through a hard time.

That is nothing like religion. Forcing yourself to "believe" something is several tiers under actually believing it.

Exactly, so why doesn't it make sense to you that earnest, deluded belief can be even MORE effective at changing one's behavior and helping them through something? If I actually beleived that God was upset with me and my eternal soul was at risk, or I had a placebo-like firm belief that god was "helping" me, then from my experience it's pretty easy to infer that that would aid my recovery. Factor in that I've seen people do it, and I think it's pretty logical to argue your claim that "Believing in God does not help with recovery. At all." as if its fact.

There is a wealth of information out there that supports what I said, from the psychological level to the biological. I'm putting the burden of proof on you to show me that optimism doesn't help with recovery at all.

Next you should make me prove God doesn't exist. I can't do that either, and for the same reason.

There's no evidence to support the existence or non-existence of a deity, only evidence that contradicts ancient claims about god. It's a concept outside of the realm of scientific studies. Again, you made this claim, which I argued against" "Believing in God does not help with recovery. At all." This is something you believe for which there are plenty of studies and evidence to prove wrong. And then you said "I'm sure there are people who wouldn't have made it except for their religious beliefs." I'm abit confused as to how your belief system works; most of what you say seems to favor the belief that optimism/beleif in God is not helpful, so I would like to see something you've read that supports this since you decided to prolong an argument, an argument that I've included readily available, easy to find information for on my side.

So, you don't like your hard assertions being argued against, and then you avoid bringing anything to the table to support your claims. This is nothing like asking you to prove that God deosn't exist. I'm simply asking to see information that has resulted in what you believe.