Justified killing or murder?

[Asmodean]

So is there any appropriate response that he could have given that would not have resulted in being charged with a crime?

Any non-criminal response, yes.

Can you elaborate? 

Only as far as the Norwegian law is concerned, if examples are what you want. In different countries, different things may be considered criminal. If one's response to a provocation is such a reaction, one should be charged. If not, not. It is that simple.

[Ali]

So is there any appropriate response that he could have given that would not have resulted in being charged with a crime?

Any non-criminal response, yes.

Can you elaborate? 

Only as far as the Norwegian law is concerned, if examples are what you want. In different countries, different things may be considered criminal. If one's response to a provocation is such a reaction, one should be charged. If not, not. It is that simple.

Sure, according to Norwegian law.  Operating under Norwegian law, what would be an appropriate non-criminal response.  Tank has suggested a citizen's arrest which I just can't even imagine.  Are you thinking along the same lines?

[Asmodean]

For example. You can try communicating with the perpetrator first though. If it fails, contact law enforcement and attempt to block possible escape routes. If the situation appears as that of immediate danger (Loss of life and/or serious injuries) and you feel like you have the sufficient skills to intervene without endangering own life or further endangering life and health of a third party, attempt to neutralise the threat (For instance: disarm, put on the ground and sit on until the police arrive)

If you hit or otherwise attempt to injure or kill the opponent, intentionally or not, you should be charged according to the severity of the injurues inflicted (And potentially criminal intent, example of which would be attempted murder). Being charged with a crime is not the same as being convicted of it, but it should be up to the court to determine if your use of force and the extend thereof was necessary and justified.

[Stevil]

For example. You can try communicating with the perpetrator first though.

Ahem, don't mean to bother you sir, I can see you are quite busy, but, have you noticed that the girl (my daughter) is screaming and crying, I don't think she wants to be raped, maybe you could consider stopping it, please.

If it fails, contact law enforcement and attempt to block possible escape routes.

No?, OK, just wait there, carry on if you must, just don't go anywhere, I need to make a phone call. Daughter, chin up, it will be all over soon, I'm calling the cops, they should be here in about half an hour tops. In the mean time, I'll look for a fence so I can block the escape route, I'll be back shortly, promise.

If the situation appears as that of immediate danger (Loss of life and/or serious injuries) and you feel like you have the sufficient skills to intervene without endangering own life or further endangering life and health of a third party, attempt to neutralise the threat (For instance: disarm, put on the ground and sit on until the police arrive)

Hmmm, I guess rape could be considered immediate danger (serious injury), OK, going into visualisation mode, I'm about 80 KG, rapist looks about 90 KG or so, he seems to have his hands full, so I have the immediate advantage, but I might endanger my own life, what if he is an ex MMA champion? Hmmmm, what to do? Getting into a fight with daughter so close, she might get hit by a stray punch, OK, best I not use force, what other options are there?

If you hit or otherwise attempt to injure or kill the opponent, intentionally or not, you should be charged according to the severity of the injurues inflicted (And potentially criminal intent, example of which would be attempted murder). Being charged with a crime is not the same as being convicted of it, but it should be up to the court to determine if your use of force and the extend thereof was necessary and justified.

This one I agree with, they need to investigate, get the evidence, present it, come to a decision.

[Asmodean]

Ahem, don't mean to bother you sir, I can see you are quite busy, but, have you noticed that the girl (my daughter) is screaming and crying, I don't think she wants to be raped, maybe you could consider stopping it, please.

As being discovered can scare off some crooks, that's as good a start as any. You do not have to be that (or at all, really) politically correct about it, but if you are so inclined, you might attempt the diplomatic kind of diplomacy.

No?, OK, just wait there, carry on if you must, just don't go anywhere, I need to make a phone call.

Waste of time, Just dial the emergency number.

Daughter, chin up, it will be all over soon, I'm calling the cops, they should be here in about half an hour tops.

Again, waste of time. In stead of reassuring the victim, make it clear that you have contacted the law enforcement agencies.

In the mean time, I'll look for a fence so I can block the escape route, I'll be back shortly, promise.

If in an open area or a room full of unlocked doors leading to one, forget blocking escape. You should only attempt that if you deem it to be safe and if it is possible to accomplish quicly and efficiently (For instance, locking the only door from the other side or blocking the car's escape route)

Hmmm, I guess rape could be considered immediate danger (serious injury), OK, going into visualisation mode, I'm about 80 KG, rapist looks about 90 KG or so, he seems to have his hands full, so I have the immediate advantage, but I might endanger my own life, what if he is an ex MMA champion? Hmmmm, what to do? Getting into a fight with daughter so close, she might get hit by a stray punch, OK, best I not use force, what other options are there?

More immediate concerns: Does he have a knife? A gun? A baseball bat? Does he appear willing to kill if provoked? Drunk? On drugs? Does he have a chokehold on the victim? Are you of any use at all in a fight if your initial attack fails? If you don't think you can do it, wait for professional assistance. Death while trying might sound heroic, but if you fail, you accomplish nothing except getting the pathologist another body to rummage through.

This one I agree with, they need to investigate, get the evidence, present it, come to a decision.

Your prior comments were those of disagreement rahter than poorly worded (and/or thought through) how-to?

[Stevil]

More immediate concerns: Does he have a knife? A gun? A baseball bat? Does he appear willing to kill if provoked? Drunk? On drugs?

Honestly, as a parent, I would not be concerned in the least with regards to my own safety. My main focus would be on stopping the rape.

[Asmodean]

Would you risk further endangering your child by improvised intervention then?

[Ecurb Noselrub]

If this man had been present in Norway last year, perhaps Anders Breivik would not have been able to kill 77 people.  If the Texas man had been present and killed Breivik, would he have been charged with a crime?

[Stevil]

Would you risk further endangering your child by improvised intervention then?

If I didn't announce my presence, by initiating dialogue first, but instead took him by surprise, I would have a better chance to subdue him.

[Stevil]

If this man had been present in Norway last year, perhaps Anders Breivik would not have been able to kill 77 people.  If the Texas man had been present and killed Breivik, would he have been charged with a crime?

I am against the general public carrying guns.

If a relatively untrained public member shot at Anders, missed and hit someone else instead, well.....
you could say in hindsight 1 friendly fire death is better than 77 but whose to know in advance how many the crazed nutjob is intending to shoot?

[Firebird]

Ahem, don't mean to bother you sir, I can see you are quite busy, but, have you noticed that the girl (my daughter) is screaming and crying, I don't think she wants to be raped, maybe you could consider stopping it, please.

As being discovered can scare off some crooks, that's as good a start as any. You do not have to be that (or at all, really) politically correct about it, but if you are so inclined, you might attempt the diplomatic kind of diplomacy.

No?, OK, just wait there, carry on if you must, just don't go anywhere, I need to make a phone call.

Waste of time, Just dial the emergency number.

Daughter, chin up, it will be all over soon, I'm calling the cops, they should be here in about half an hour tops.

Again, waste of time. In stead of reassuring the victim, make it clear that you have contacted the law enforcement agencies.

In the mean time, I'll look for a fence so I can block the escape route, I'll be back shortly, promise.

If in an open area or a room full of unlocked doors leading to one, forget blocking escape. You should only attempt that if you deem it to be safe and if it is possible to accomplish quicly and efficiently (For instance, locking the only door from the other side or blocking the car's escape route)

Hmmm, I guess rape could be considered immediate danger (serious injury), OK, going into visualisation mode, I'm about 80 KG, rapist looks about 90 KG or so, he seems to have his hands full, so I have the immediate advantage, but I might endanger my own life, what if he is an ex MMA champion? Hmmmm, what to do? Getting into a fight with daughter so close, she might get hit by a stray punch, OK, best I not use force, what other options are there?

More immediate concerns: Does he have a knife? A gun? A baseball bat? Does he appear willing to kill if provoked? Drunk? On drugs? Does he have a chokehold on the victim? Are you of any use at all in a fight if your initial attack fails? If you don't think you can do it, wait for professional assistance. Death while trying might sound heroic, but if you fail, you accomplish nothing except getting the pathologist another body to rummage through.

This one I agree with, they need to investigate, get the evidence, present it, come to a decision.

Your prior comments were those of disagreement rahter than poorly worded (and/or thought through) how-to?

Sorry, but this isn't a "Choose your own adventure" book. The guy was raping his daughter. You really expect him to just stand there and talk to guy/make a phone call while he continues to rape his daughter? If someone's trying to rape or hurt one of my family members, I would not react any differently.
I think the system worked perfectly here. The jury considered the case and threw it out, and if this story is true, it seems justified. The guy even called the cops, told them exactly what happened, and tried to save the rapist's life before he died. Is it really worth bringing him up on charges? His actions don't indicate a threat to society.

[Sweetdeath]

Ahem, don't mean to bother you sir, I can see you are quite busy, but, have you noticed that the girl (my daughter) is screaming and crying, I don't think she wants to be raped, maybe you could consider stopping it, please.

As being discovered can scare off some crooks, that's as good a start as any. You do not have to be that (or at all, really) politically correct about it, but if you are so inclined, you might attempt the diplomatic kind of diplomacy.

No?, OK, just wait there, carry on if you must, just don't go anywhere, I need to make a phone call.

Waste of time, Just dial the emergency number.

Daughter, chin up, it will be all over soon, I'm calling the cops, they should be here in about half an hour tops.

Again, waste of time. In stead of reassuring the victim, make it clear that you have contacted the law enforcement agencies.

In the mean time, I'll look for a fence so I can block the escape route, I'll be back shortly, promise.

If in an open area or a room full of unlocked doors leading to one, forget blocking escape. You should only attempt that if you deem it to be safe and if it is possible to accomplish quicly and efficiently (For instance, locking the only door from the other side or blocking the car's escape route)

Hmmm, I guess rape could be considered immediate danger (serious injury), OK, going into visualisation mode, I'm about 80 KG, rapist looks about 90 KG or so, he seems to have his hands full, so I have the immediate advantage, but I might endanger my own life, what if he is an ex MMA champion? Hmmmm, what to do? Getting into a fight with daughter so close, she might get hit by a stray punch, OK, best I not use force, what other options are there?

More immediate concerns: Does he have a knife? A gun? A baseball bat? Does he appear willing to kill if provoked? Drunk? On drugs? Does he have a chokehold on the victim? Are you of any use at all in a fight if your initial attack fails? If you don't think you can do it, wait for professional assistance. Death while trying might sound heroic, but if you fail, you accomplish nothing except getting the pathologist another body to rummage through.

This one I agree with, they need to investigate, get the evidence, present it, come to a decision.

Your prior comments were those of disagreement rahter than poorly worded (and/or thought through) how-to?

Sorry, but this isn't a "Choose your own adventure" book. The guy was raping his daughter. You really expect him to just stand there and talk to guy/make a phone call while he continues to rape his daughter? If someone's trying to rape or hurt one of my family members, I would not react any differently.
I think the system worked perfectly here. The jury considered the case and threw it out, and if this story is true, it seems justified. The guy even called the cops, told them exactly what happened, and tried to save the rapist's life before he died. Is it really worth bringing him up on charges? His actions don't indicate a threat to society.

i agree with this.
this was an extreme situation. Someone were attacking my girlfriend, you better be damn sure the cops are getting called after said attacker is bloody and unconscious.

[markmcdaniel]

Would you risk further endangering your child by improvised intervention then?

This is not a case of further endangering the child's life. Having caught a rapist / child molester in the act you will have already done that. It is an unfortunate fact that both child molesters and rapists frequently kill their victims. Having caught one in the act only increases the likelihood that the perpetrator will decide to kill two people.  

[Asmodean]

If this man had been present in Norway last year, perhaps Anders Breivik would not have been able to kill 77 people.  If the Texas man had been present and killed Breivik, would he have been charged with a crime?

Yes, I very much think so. It would probably not be the longest of trials if the killing occured after Breivik started gunning people down, but charged, that person most probably would be.

[Asmodean]

Sorry, but this isn't a "Choose your own adventure" book. The guy was raping his daughter. You really expect him to just stand there and talk to guy/make a phone call while he continues to rape his daughter? If someone's trying to rape or hurt one of my family members, I would not react any differently.

Yes, I would expect the would-be vigilante to start by attempting to establish communication, just like the law enforcement officers would. If that fails, it kind of beomes situational, but unless life is in immediate danger and the intervention opportunity is present, contacting law enforement should be the next step.

If you attack someone in a state of sudden emotional imbalance (rage, jealousy etc, the first being probable in what you describe), well, that would be a crime of passion, would it not? Why should one ever be able to avoid being charged with one of those, whatever its motives?

I think the system worked perfectly here. The jury considered the case and threw it out, and if this story is true, it seems justified. The guy even called the cops, told them exactly what happened, and tried to save the rapist's life before he died. Is it really worth bringing him up on charges? His actions don't indicate a threat to society.

The system didn't fail, I think. I'd not go as far as to say that it worked without having a lot more case-related and legal data. And the guy did the thing sort-of by the book in the immediate aftermath. Were I a judge, I doubt I'd put him behind bars either, but I would certainly want the opportunity to do so, given that a crime has occured.