Old Testament Pfft, Jesus is the MAN!

[Tank]

If your God concept has to squeeze itself behind such a disingenuous answer your God concept is worthless.

It's not worthless to me.  And I see nothing disingenuous about pointing out that we tiny humans cannot claim absolute knowledge about the origins of the universe and what may lay outside it. My concept of God is pretty expansive, actually.  

But you do!

No, I do not. I am not claiming to have absolute knowledge. To believe something is not to claim absolute knowledge.  I could be wrong.  I believe in God but do not claim that I have absolute knowledge of his existence. Why is that difficult for you to accept?

Because I wouldn't accept that attitude from anybody under any circumstances. You don't have absolute knowledge (because as you point out nobody has absolute knowledge) yet you behave as though your knowledge is so close to absolute that it makes no practical difference in the real world. You preach to people. You believe you have a God given insight into reality. You believe that not only do you have an insight into God's will, you have chosen Christianity over all possible belief systems. Preaching is arrogant. It says 'I know better than you. You listen to me. I know best.' I don't care what you actually say the very act of preaching to others is pretty much the ultimate in arrogance. And to spin that preaching in line with just one dogma is even worse, you deny the knowledge of all other people. And you base this behaviour on a personal revelation that is absolutely and utterly unverifiable.  If a salesman came to me and tried to sell me something based on personal revelation I'd laugh in their face and I expect you would too. Yet you expect people to accept your pitch with no verifiable 3rd party evidence whatsoever. This is going to sound harsh but this sort of behaviour comes over as monumentally arrogant and stupefyingly hypocritical.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Because I wouldn't accept that attitude from anybody under any circumstances. You don't have absolute knowledge (because as you point out nobody has absolute knowledge) yet you behave as though your knowledge is so close to absolute that it makes no practical difference in the real world. You preach to people. You believe you have a God given insight into reality. You believe that not only do you have an insight into God's will, you have chosen Christianity over all possible belief systems. Preaching is arrogant. It says 'I know better than you. You listen to me. I know best.' I don't care what you actually say the very act of preaching to others is pretty much the ultimate in arrogance. And to spin that preaching in line with just one dogma is even worse, you deny the knowledge of all other people. And you base this behaviour on a personal revelation that is absolutely and utterly unverifiable.  If a salesman came to me and tried to sell me something based on personal revelation I'd laugh in their face and I expect you would too. Yet you expect people to accept your pitch with no verifiable 3rd party evidence whatsoever. This is going to sound harsh but this sort of behaviour comes over as monumentally arrogant and stupefyingly hypocritical.

I wasn't aware that I had engaged in preaching here.  If you are referring to people in my church, those are people who have, for the most part, experienced something that creates faith in their lives.  They understand what I'm talking about, so it doesn't come across to them as a "I know best" attitude.  They have their own revelations, to one degree or another.  Furthermore, I don't expect people here to "accept my pitch."  I'm just giving another perspective - that of a believer with a particular experience.  You do sound harsh, and that's fine, if that's the way you feel.  If you think I'm an arrogant hypocrite, I don't really know what to do about that, except to reject the idea.  So be it.

[Tank]

Because I wouldn't accept that attitude from anybody under any circumstances. You don't have absolute knowledge (because as you point out nobody has absolute knowledge) yet you behave as though your knowledge is so close to absolute that it makes no practical difference in the real world. You preach to people. You believe you have a God given insight into reality. You believe that not only do you have an insight into God's will, you have chosen Christianity over all possible belief systems. Preaching is arrogant. It says 'I know better than you. You listen to me. I know best.' I don't care what you actually say the very act of preaching to others is pretty much the ultimate in arrogance. And to spin that preaching in line with just one dogma is even worse, you deny the knowledge of all other people. And you base this behaviour on a personal revelation that is absolutely and utterly unverifiable.  If a salesman came to me and tried to sell me something based on personal revelation I'd laugh in their face and I expect you would too. Yet you expect people to accept your pitch with no verifiable 3rd party evidence whatsoever. This is going to sound harsh but this sort of behaviour comes over as monumentally arrogant and stupefyingly hypocritical.

I wasn't aware that I had engaged in preaching here.  If you are referring to people in my church, those are people who have, for the most part, experienced something that creates faith in their lives.  They understand what I'm talking about, so it doesn't come across to them as a "I know best" attitude.  They have their own revelations, to one degree or another.  Furthermore, I don't expect people here to "accept my pitch."  I'm just giving another perspective - that of a believer with a particular experience.  You do sound harsh, and that's fine, if that's the way you feel.  If you think I'm an arrogant hypocrite, I don't really know what to do about that, except to reject the idea.  So be it.

I think this is where we arrived last time we locked horns 

[Stevil]

Personally, I think "don't fret about the future" advice is excellent, since worrying about things over which you have no control is just a waste of emotion -- not that most of us can completely avoid doing that but it's still a good idea to try.

But "don't fret" and "don't prepare" are two different things and Jesus is often made to seem as if he is suggesting both.

I think risk management is a very important part of life.
How can you address that which you worry about?
You can resolve, mitigate, delegate, set aside a contingency or simply accept the risk.

If you don't address your risks you either get caught with your pants down or you mull and potentially lose sleep, get stressed, angry etc.

The statements from the bible aren't merely limited to the mulling aspect of "worry", but more the "don't concern yourself with these issues" as if they are either unimportant or taken care of for you (delegated).

e.g.
"Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' "For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

So in this statement it says that god is taking care of this, so you don't need to. It has been delegated to god.

"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow for tomorrow will worry about its own things, Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

In this statement it says, only concern yourself with today's issues.
If worry meant to "mull", then there is no point in mulling over today's issues. But worry means to concern yourself. And it is true that some people may not have the luxury to concern themselves with tomorrow's problems, but these people are in constant fire fighting mode, it is not taken granted that they will survive the day.
But fire fighting mode is no way to live a life. Planning for the future, sorting out future worries of food, water, shelter etc is certainly a priority, once you know you will survive today.

[Gawen]

Planning for the future, sorting out future worries of food, water, shelter etc is certainly a priority, once you know you will survive today.

And, if history is any good teacher, they will survive tomorrow and the next and the next because they MUST plan....now that they know Jesus did not, cannot or will not come back soon, as he said he would. Faith in a god that fails is folly.

Early Christianity was a death cult where no one wanted to die. Otherwise it should have died out long long ago simply due to the willing lack of basic human needs, both physically and psychologically. Today's Christianity is nothing of Christ. They claim him the greatest teacher ever to walk the face of the earth and I see none of them giving no thought to the morrow - forgoing the monthly fish fry, developing next week's sermon, planning marriage counseling for newly weds.

Bruce, I ask you if you had adhered to Jesus's words in the SotM when you were of legal adult age, would you have been in the financial difficulty you are in today? I wager you wouldn't be for you would have no need of finances.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

Bruce, I ask you if you had adhered to Jesus's words in the SotM when you were of legal adult age, would you have been in the financial difficulty you are in today? I wager you wouldn't be for you would have no need of finances.

I adhered pretty well up until about age 27. Then gradually, I got sucked into "life."  Right now, I'm about a 50% Christian. That's not to say anything bad about Jesus or his teachings - it says more about me than anything. Right now I'm about half dedicated to it, and that's about all the energy I have.

[Sweetdeath]

Wow, what a lively debate!!

let's just use our brains for a  moment. we evolve, and times change. We used to use donkeys and horses on farms before tractors existed.

We build houses, make better ways of communication. Humans evolve. Every single day.

I am in awe how amazing and far we've come. And did "god" help this happen? No.
Humans grow smarter all on their own. We grow, we make mistakes, then grow some more.

Do you really think in this HUGE world, a god ecists and gives a fuck? With all the murderers and pyschopaths. Starving children, and abused relationships.

It is only humans here. We have proof of our existance. Our accomplishments. Not a god's.

[fester30]

I think the biggest mistake Christians (and other religions) make that seems to be a theme here is that too many of them claim to have knowledge of God because they think they have knowledge of the Bible, and their preacher has described God to give it personality.  What they don't realize is that there are so many different versions of God on this planet, different religions, different denominations and practices, because everybody sees God through their own lens crafted through their own temperament and experiences.  This makes people craft their idea of God in a way that best makes sense to them.  Just the practice of believing in a God is a way of not having to be in the dark about anything.  If there's something about life or the world you cannot understand, it must have something to do with God.  At least Animated Dirt admits that there are many things he does not know or understand and will not attempt to explain.  I just think religious folks are sort of conditioned to not like that answer, so they come up with all kinds of explanations that fit what their idea of God is.  AD must be something of a scientist in that regard, which in my experience is a bit of a rarity among religious folks.

What I mean by that is a scientist is willing to admit those things he or she does not know or understand.  While a scientist may hypothesize about the unknown, he or she will not regard hypothesis as fact. 

[Stevil]

I'm about a 50% Christian

Does that mean you are 50% atheist? This makes you somewhat of a fence sitter.

If I believed in a god and eternal happiness or eternal torment, I would certainly spend all my time ensuring I got eternal happiness.
Even if it meant giving away all my money, not worrying about food, water, clothing or even tomorrow.
I'd cut my eyes out so that I don't lust, I'd waste away and die no doubt, but life is fleeting and eternity is forever.
If I believed in god as described in the bible, I wouldn't risk his viscous vengeful wrath.

But I don't believe in gods. I live my life, true to myself, true to my worldview. I don't have to please any all powerful dictator. I do as I please, I can live up to my values, an inclusive, tolerant and supportive society. I am not perfect, but I am happy how I choose to live.

[Sandra Craft]

I think the biggest mistake Christians (and other religions) make that seems to be a theme here is that too many of them claim to have knowledge of God because they think they have knowledge of the Bible, and their preacher has described God to give it personality. 

That's what always gets me -- Xtians guessing about god based on the authority or information from the bible without taking into consideration that the people who told the stories that ended up in the bible were also guessing, the people who complied the bible were guessing and the people who say the bible was divinely inspired are guessing about that.  None of them, from the first person to come up with the idea of god to the people defending that idea now are doing anything more than guessing and yet they magically know that their guess is right.

I think this is why religious cherry-picking doesn't bother me at all, since it's all just guesswork (whether they admit it or not) why not pick this guess over that one, or substitute your own guesses for more established guesses?  They all have exactly the same chance of hitting the target.

[AnimatedDirt]

I think the biggest mistake Christians (and other religions) make that seems to be a theme here is that too many of them claim to have knowledge of God because they think they have knowledge of the Bible, and their preacher has described God to give it personality.  What they don't realize is that there are so many different versions of God on this planet, different religions, different denominations and practices, because everybody sees God through their own lens crafted through their own temperament and experiences.  This makes people craft their idea of God in a way that best makes sense to them.  Just the practice of believing in a God is a way of not having to be in the dark about anything.  If there's something about life or the world you cannot understand, it must have something to do with God.  At least Animated Dirt admits that there are many things he does not know or understand and will not attempt to explain.  I just think religious folks are sort of conditioned to not like that answer, so they come up with all kinds of explanations that fit what their idea of God is.  AD must be something of a scientist in that regard, which in my experience is a bit of a rarity among religious folks.

What I mean by that is a scientist is willing to admit those things he or she does not know or understand.  While a scientist may hypothesize about the unknown, he or she will not regard hypothesis as fact.

I appreciate that, however my noggin tells me this slight "elevation" will not last long. 

I have beliefs that cannot be proven.  My choice is to err on the side of the possibility of God and others choice is to stick with what can be known.  I've said many times and I'll repeat myself again;  There is enough reason TO believe and there is just as much, if not more, reason to disbelieve.  If God could be proven, Atheism would cease to exist.

Empirical proof for God would hardly be cause for every person to become a Christian...far from it, IMHO.  

[Gawen]

I adhered pretty well up until about age 27. Then gradually, I got sucked into "life." 

I rest my case.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I'm about a 50% Christian

Does that mean you are 50% atheist? This makes you somewhat of a fence sitter.

No, I meant my dedication level is about 50%.  The thermometer only goes half way up.

If I believed in a god and eternal happiness or eternal torment, I would certainly spend all my time ensuring I got eternal happiness.
Even if it meant giving away all my money, not worrying about food, water, clothing or even tomorrow.
I'd cut my eyes out so that I don't lust, I'd waste away and die no doubt, but life is fleeting and eternity is forever.
If I believed in god as described in the bible, I wouldn't risk his viscous vengeful wrath.

I can tell you from personal experience that it is hard to keep that level of intensity for that many years.  I think that's why in Christianity it is a matter of faith, not works or level of intensity.

[Ecurb Noselrub]

I adhered pretty well up until about age 27. Then gradually, I got sucked into "life." 

I rest my case.

Yes, you have proved that I am not an extremely dedicated Christian.  I could have saved you lots of attorney's fees if you had told me that was your aim.

[Sweetdeath]

It seems younger people are usualy only   religious when it is introduced to them, by adults